Arsenal Supporters Forum

Eskimo
March 18, 2005

If this site really is going to go on then....anyone still keen on Essien after discovering his love for Alex Ferguson and ManUre?

Cannon Balls
March 18, 2005

Niall, it's great news to hear that this site will be continuing after the sad news of Steves death, which although not unexpected was still a shock. This forum though can be a lasting testimony to what was on his part the setting up of a contribution to the quality of many peoples lives. And this will be remembered by all of us always. I offer the folowing on here in his memory by William Blake. He who binds himself to a joy Doth the winged life destroy.But he who kisses it as it Flies Lives in Eternitys Sunrise.

Truegooner
March 18, 2005

Jerome Thomas is still a gooner at heart!

Bernard
March 18, 2005

I can see it now with Rob and Niall in charge. Anyone who says Lehmann is good and that Duff isn't world class will be immediately banned. I've just had a thought, actually I think Lehmann is pretty good and Duff isn't world class. Oh well, that's my ... is it IPD, or RAF, or TUC, or whatever the real abbreviation is ... soon to be blocked.

Harv Cape Town
March 17, 2005

Good on yer, Azinoz.

Niall
March 17, 2005

Azinoz, could I just say thank you for the account of Steve's funeral service and for attending on behalf of all of us. What has shone through from your account is just how massive an Arsenal fan Steve was - not to mention he was a big chap himself standing at full height of 6'3. From reading the accounts of some of you from the book contributions that I received and from the postings over the past couple of days, it is clear that all of you, like me, have found this forum addictive, hugely informative and a top class medium for engaging with and in some cases meeting up with fellow Arsenal fans. This is all due to one man and it is to him that all this is due. It is clear that many, if love is the right word, love this forum and it enriches our daily grind. On that note, I am honoured that Rob has asked me to contribute to keeping the forum and the website running smoothly in Steve's honour and memory. All I can say is that if we can keep this forum running in the manner Steve did, we will be doing OK. The website however, imo, is all of ours and to that end if, in time, anyone has any suggestions as to how we can improve it, or take it forward please let Rob and I know and I will endeavour to learn how all this is put together, for at a quick glance it is a superbly written website. Thanks.

citygooner
March 17, 2005

very sad news. my thoughts are with steves family and friends. PTBAG

citygooner
March 17, 2005

very sad news. my thoughts are with steves family and friends. PTBAG

GARY
March 17, 2005

Not much to add to the postings.All I can say is I hope the boys bring home some silverware this season as a fitting tribute to the Gleibmaster.Shalom.

Alan2
March 17, 2005

I'd like to add my deepest condolences to Steve, his family, and friends.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 17, 2005

Sad news about Steve. He will certainly not be forgotten. Hope we can get a 'farewell message' placed in a future Arsenal Programme before the season is out. Thanks for everything Steve in bringing me into a global Arsenal community. Keep contributing lads. Steve is still watching and tut, tutting at our comments. Love to all The Gleiber family and friends. May we please have a picture of Steve on the web-site as a tribute to our leader, Sue & RobK? Very PTBAG today.

tom
March 17, 2005

Thanks for those posts Adam/Azinoz. Incredible how may people's lives Steve touched, quite overwhelming. C'MON ARSENAL.

Rob K
rob@3kdigital.com
March 17, 2005

Thanks again for going Azinoz - I have already had reports from the family about how lovely it was that an ambassador of the forum came to represent the hundreds of forumites out there who also would have liked to have been there but span the globe and couldnt make it.

Azinoz
March 17, 2005

To everyone, a little information and few observations from today. Steve Gleiber was cremated today 17 March St.Patricks day.I was advised of the timing and location of the service about four hours before it was due to commence, luckily for me it was fairly close by and wasn't a problem in attending, although you could hardly say I was dressed for it.Added to that buying a bunch of flowers with 30 minutes to kick off meant thatI had to accept whatever the florist felt like giving me. I thought at the time, even I look in better condition than what was being offered , anyway the card and the attendance register has been signed on behalf of the entire forum including that very kind Chelsea supporter who posted his condolences yesterday and that's another tribute to the great man. Judging from the very well attended service there is no doubt that Steve was a fine very popular individual. A measure of the man apart from being six foot three apparently, was his best friend, a Manc wearing an Arsenal shirt in his honour giving the eulogy (even I would have baulked at wearing a Manc one as a tribute to my best friend)It appears he had a wonderful sense of humour a love for his family, humanity and most importantly in this context, an unquenchable passion for the Arsenal. I can tell you the Arse was mentioned more times than the Almighty and that's not an exagerration. I had never met the man and yet I left the chaple feeling as though I was his best mate.And I think it is important for you all to know that there is no doubt that members of his family and friends were equally moved by the outpourings of grief on the forum and that is I think a tribute to us all, RIP

goonerguru
goonerguru@hotmail.co.uk
March 17, 2005

RobK,great news to see that you are keeping the site going and a great tribute to Steve,I haven't got a clue how these websites work but being retired the one thing I do have is plenty of time,which I guess is what you don't have so if I can be of any help to you please don't hesitate to contact me.

Adam in Sydney
andybrom@bigpond.net.au
March 17, 2005

Hi Forum, I have never visited this site before and actually never new it existed. I have just got back from Steves "Minyan" a religous service held after funeral service at families home. There were 100's of people there which was a testament to the man. A lot of your support/sympathy messages were read out at the service. I was intrigued and had to look at the site. I am overwhelmed by the outpouring of grief shown by all u "gooners" - I did not realise how big this thing is and how respected world wide Steve was. Anyway I am sure Steve would have been overwhelmed with gratitude to u all. I only met Steve a couple of times as I am more friendly with his sister Susie and her husband David. Regards all and "go the Gunners !!!"

Dormouse
March 17, 2005

Very sad to read the news. Didn't find the forum until last Autumn & so never knew Steve personally or on the net. But his quality and values are seen so clearly through the personality of the forum. I am very grateful for what he created, and know my life would have been enriched if I had known him. My condolences to those who did, my thoughts are with you. RIP.

Graham
March 17, 2005

RIP Steve Gleiber. Thanks for creating something so special, your memory will live on through this forum

chocolate gooner
March 17, 2005

I’m absolutely gutted to hear that Steve Gleiber has finally passed away but I guess everything that needs to be said has already been said. Rest in peace Gleibermeister. And may the Good Lord comfort his family and all who knew him.

Decaf
March 17, 2005

RIP Steve, and condolences to everyone who knew you. You made a difference, my friend.

Alan Hedges
March 17, 2005

I am Steve's cousin from Sydney and just returned home from the funeral. Steve was the guy that got me in to Arsenal many years ago and I just want to thank him for doing so. He always provided me with much love and support. He was a true friend and I miss him already. His door was always open and I'll always cherish the many games we watched together. He was extremely humbled by the many people that have thanked him for this page, and for the many people he has touched all over the world. I love you Cuz..

its only ray parlour
R.I.P Steve Gleiber
March 17, 2005

I've been reading this site for nearly 5 years now. My sincere condolences to Steve's family, although i never really knew the man, he touched all of us with his humour and above all his dedication to creating this world-wide network of friends. I'll be sure to raise a glass in honour of a very classy man. Cheers Steve. God be with you.

IndianGooner(Manoj)
R.I.P
March 17, 2005

My condolences to his family, and friends. Being a recent poster and a visitor to the site, could'nt explain my joy whe I found this website, all this info/ data/ pics so well stored...Well as Niall says he joins Rocastle, HB and the other great Gooners in the big AG in the sky...

gaz from Oz
March 17, 2005

My deepest sympathy to Steves family. No doubt Steve has his seat booked in that great grandstand in the hereafter. His contribution to Arsenal and intelligent debate on football makes this a sad day for all. RIP Steve.

mike brunner
March 17, 2005

I am Mike's wife and I am in the UK. Mike is Steve's cousin and I am speaking to Mike now on the phone as he is in Australia. Mike has asked me to tell the forum the following: On the day he died one of the last things Mike said to Steve just before he lost consciousness was that we had drawn Blackburn in the semi and that his web site would carry on. Even as he lay dying , those words brought a huge smile to his face. Wherever you are now Steve keep laughing and if you get any insight into the scores before they happen, try and let us know. I love you.

GaryB
March 17, 2005

My deepest sympathy for Steve's family and loved ones. The greatest gift we can give is to touch many lives in a positive way. The testaments on this site clearly show that Steve managed it. His personality and legacy continue to shine through.

Sir Basil
March 17, 2005

R.I.P Steve , Thanks for feeding my passion for all things ARSENAL .

Rob K
March 17, 2005

Forum - Thank you for all of your heartfelt tributes to Steve. His parents, sister & partner will I'm sure draw strength to see from your comments just how wide & deep an impact Steve made. He knew how much the forum meant and specifically requested for it to be continued. Niall & myself will ensure the site continues, not least as a tribute to Steve and a lasting legacy. PTBAG

melterskelter
March 17, 2005

Deepest sympathy and condolences to Steve's partner and family .thanks for bringing the forum together Steve R.I.P to a true GUNNERS fan

Debra Brunner
deblillahus@yahoo.co.uk
March 17, 2005

You were always so much fun. Such an honest, decent guy. You will be missed beyond belief. We love you.

Long Time Gooner
March 17, 2005

As a life time supporter, long time reader and occasional contributor to this forum I would just like to pay my respects to a great bloke, Steve. Thanks for making this forum possible. You are already missed by so many right across the globe.

GoonerMart
March 17, 2005

I am a pretty rare poster, but have read this forum for a good few years. This site has helped me get back in touch with all things Arsenal after a few years being a bit cut off. RIP Steve.

Rob K
March 17, 2005

Thank you for posting Susie. Love you.

Susie Gleiber
sfmrosen@hotmail.com.au
March 17, 2005

From Steve's SisterDear AllHaving reviewed the forum this morning, the family and I thank you all for your kind words and messages. This is a difficult time for us all today, however we do find some solace in the knowledge that he is truly loved, respected and admired by so many spanning the globe. For most of you that never knew Steve or met him, let me tell you that this young man of 41 lived life to the full and enjoyed nothing more than his passion for Arsenal. He was kind, considerate and the best brother, son and partner one could ever wish for. On the day we bury my darling brother and on the eve of the birth of his second nephew, I want him to know that he will remain in our hearts and souls. Please make sure this forum remains true to his name, as he groomed and loved it with the same care he bestowed on us all.Our deepest thanks.Susie and Gleiber Family

Rob K
March 17, 2005

Azinoz/Eddie - if you havent already seen - please check your email as I have sent the details through, since the funeral is today Sydney time at 3pm. If you are able to attend - it would lovely for an ambassador of the forum to be there.

clock end clive
March 17, 2005

Totally agree - thank you Azinoz.

Bradyisgod
March 17, 2005

What can I say that hasn't already been said.My deepest sympathies to Steve's family and friends.I only post rarely,usually when im angry!,but steve's legacy is the best Arsenal forum bar none.

goonerguru
March 17, 2005

On behalf of everyone on the forum,thank you Azinoz for that very kind gesture.

Azinoz
March 17, 2005

To all readers of the forum. As I live in Sydney and provided Rob sends on the funeral details I will send a wreath on behalf of us all.Hopefully I will be able to attend as well

old man of hoy
March 17, 2005

Went out early this morning and missed my daily helping of the forum. I return tonight and find the sad news. I add my own respects to all those that others have so poignantly and finely given. Let this site, and Arsenal, go from strength to strength in his memory.

Dec
dsosullivan@eircom.net
March 17, 2005

I am a regular reader of this forum but have never posted. Thanks to Steve Gleiber for creating by far the best Arsenal forum on the net. Deepest sympathies to Rob and Steve's family

KENYAN GOONER
March 17, 2005

I rarely post on this site but i have been reading it daily for more than 5 years and my deepest sympathy goes to steve family.REST IN PEACE STEVE:

KENYAN GOONER
March 17, 2005

I rarely post on this site but i have been rading it daily for more than 5 years and my deepest sympathy goes to steve family.REST IN PEACE STEVE:

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 17, 2005

Azinoz-Think I speak for everyone on here when I say it would be a great tribute to a great man if you could attend the funeral on behalf of the forum. You know what? I've been posting on here for quite a while now and its at sad times like this that this forum comes into its own. Run by a thouroughly decent person, used buy thouroughly decent people. Come on Arsenal.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 17, 2005

I'd like to offer my deepest sympathies to all of Steve Gleibers family. I dont think any of us will ever forget the work he put into starting, running and maintaining the best Arsenal website on the web. I'm just glad that when he did pass-away the forum had returned (after a difficult few months) to what Steve had set it up for in the first place-a bloody good place to come and talk about Arsenal. I've not read any posts yet so I'm hoping the subject of trying to find someone to carry on Steves great work has allready been aproached. The biggest tribute we could all pay him will be to make sure that this fantastic website carries on in exactly the way he would have wanted it. The forums going to be a poorer place for your abscence. RIP Steve. Come on Arsenal.

US Martin
March 17, 2005

My deepest condolences to Steve's entire family, including of course, Rob. I can only echo all the sentiments expressed here by all the forum members, regular or otherwise, of obviously all sorts of Gooner. The variety represented in all the men and women who come here out of their love for Arsenal, is the highest tribute to what Steve Gleiber set out to achieve here for his obviously cherished Gooners and his beloved Arsenal. We are all lucky to have found Steve's place and be welcomed and accepted into it. And obviously those who knew a man of such quality are luckier still. Small solace now perhaps, but in time that will mean more and more. My prayers are with all here today, most of all his family right now...

Pete Mountford
March 17, 2005

that should of course read "hasn't got to see Chelsea win the league'

Pete Mountford
March 17, 2005

Another occasional postr, but regualar viewer whose been coming on here since the first 'PV4 to Madrid & Sol is a Gooner' summer of 2001. Steve Gleiber was active in the early days i was on the site, then he got ill, and we saw far less of him, although you felt his presence was there somewhere, monitoring the site for thise that stepped out of line. Saddened by the news of Steve's death at such a young age , like many I didn't know SG, but I have the upmost respect for someone who took time to set up a facility such as this website in his own spare time ( i know from my own lack of free time how difficult it is to nutrure and build 'labour of love' projects such as this. Two suggestions, could Rob or whoever is going to manage the site now (if indeed someone is- I don't totally know how all this works on a day to day basis) rename the site the Steve Gleiber memorial Supporters forum, with an explaination on the home page as to who SG was. also the Gooner should be told for the next issue, Bernhard as you wrote a small piece alittle while back could put something together. Still at least SG has got to see Chelsea win the league

tim G
March 17, 2005

Have been reading this site on a daily basis since 98. RIP Steve, Gooner through and through.

Mickey Sloan
March 17, 2005

In a way it's sad that i found out that Steve passed away. As i never get to meet him i just imagine he's still somewhere out there waiting to erase EEG's swearing from the forum. me more bad news, let's win the FA cup 10-0 for the man... cheers Steve

Florida Gooner
March 17, 2005

I am saddened by the loss of such a great guy. My deepest sympathy to his family. God bless you, Steve.

Dave S
March 17, 2005

Trisagion - I think you've got the wrong person - I hardly ever post and when I do it's usually some harmless nostalgia have have never been involved in any argy bargy (unless you count the time when I said that Kanu 'contributed nothing'!)

Darren
March 17, 2005

Rob - heartfelt condolences. Really sad to hear the news.

BMurph
March 17, 2005

Very sad on finding out today that Steve is no longer with us. The world is now a poorer place. My heartfelt wishes to his family and friends.

JamesLT
Steve Gleiber: a true Arsenal man
March 17, 2005

Very, very sad news. Rest in peace, Steve and thank you.

Andy Y
March 17, 2005

It was in 1999 that I stumbled on this excellent forum. One of a kind. Thanks Steve.

R.I.P Steve G
Gonna Gun U Down
March 17, 2005

R.I.P Steve GA true legend to the arsenal fans, a man that brought arsenal fans many years of debates, forums, news, results....A man that we barely knew, but an having him as an arsenal supporter makes me proud to be a gunner, you are the man steve....Rest In Peace BroMay god bless you and your family.My CondoloncesGonna Gun U Down AKA Stevie K

Arsenal4life
March 17, 2005

I have always come to this site to feel the passion of Arsenal supporters and like many others here, I feel a connection to the man that made it all possible. I mainly just read the comments but I feel it a duty to post a comment hearing this sad news. My condolences to Steve and his family. God bless us all.Long live Arsenal!

Gunner Gun U Down
March 17, 2005

According to planet football arsenal are keen on Jemaine Jenas after it was revealed he may leave since he has been on the bench, not a bad deal, and according to tribal football arsenal will sign owen with the possiblilty reyes goin the other way as a deal, and also it reveals about emre. Does anyone agree when i say ljungbergs time is to leave and we should replace him with SWP? and also replace pires with vaart, and edu with jenas? Also i belive Cole shouldnt leave but if worst comes to worst and he leaves then we already have an ever improving Clichy, think about it was cole as good as clichy at his age, this guys the real thing. Also Senderos has maybe proved it that maybe arsenal shouldnt buy a CB, maybe but i still think we need a decent back up one. But we definetly need a RB, i watched HINKEL play, and the german international looks apart and he RB not a converted MR. Possible swap with lehman too?

Truegooner
March 17, 2005

Rob K, my thanks for posting the extremely sad news about Steve.As with everybody else,I offer my sincere condolences to his family,and a big thank you to Mr G. for putting this site up in the first place and for managing to keep it together throughout his lengthy illness.

USUKgooner
March 17, 2005

Started reading the forum back in 96 and certainly remember the Steve "interventions" - was not aware how serious it was with him - lost my dad to cancer so know how devestated his family are- thanks for the forum - and let's honour Steve's memeory by keeping up the tone of the forum that he created. God bless you in heaven and your family on earth.

MOJO
March 17, 2005

Steve, thanks for this fantastic forum. Condolences to steves family and friends.

Mr Parker's Dogbite
r.crowley@leeds.ac.uk
March 17, 2005

As a Chelsea fan who regularly visits this forum to get a sense of what Arsenal fans are thinking (and with an intelligent, articulate level of debate far in advance of the likes of AWIMB for example) I just wish to extend my condolences to Steve's friends and family. i'd picked up previously that he was ill but it was still a shock to read the awful news this morning. It's clear that what he constructed here was a labour of love and I sincerely hope that this forum will be able to carry on, if for no other reason than as a tribute to Steve. Clearly a true football fan.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 17, 2005

Very sad to hear the news of Steves passing. I've been fortunate to follow this site from it's earliest days and for me Steve, although I never met him personally, will always be associated with Arsene Wengers Arsenal. Looking forward to our new home at Ashburton Grove I'd like to think that Steve will find himself the best seat in the house and continue to enjoy the rollercoaster ride that is Arsenal Football Club. My heartfelt condolences to Rob K, his family and friends the world over. God Bless.

Rich
March 17, 2005

God bless you Steve, our thoughts are with you and your friends and family.

Neil Slevin
March 17, 2005

God bless you Steve, my deepest symphathy to your family. It is amazing how someone you've never met can have a such a direct influence on oneself. I have read this site virtually everyday for years and accasionally posting when something got my goat. Thanyou and God Bless.

Harrow Gooner
March 17, 2005

My deepest sympathies to Steve's family. He brought a lot of joy to all our lives & will be sorely missed.

Singapore Gooner
March 17, 2005

Deepest condolences to family and friends of Steve....I may not have been posting here when he was active but judging by the posts I've read he was a more than decent bloke. May the forum live on in his memory

Gunfire
March 17, 2005

RIP Steve Gleiber. Thanks for the forum. Regrets to his family.

Joshua
March 16, 2005

Rest in Peace Steve. Whereever you are is now blessed with your graciousness.

Bogdan K
March 16, 2005

Just to add my voice to the many paying tribute to Steve and passing condolences to his family. The number of messages here is a fitting remembrance and shows how many lives he touched. Thank you Steve.

Vince Ordinaire
March 16, 2005

What terrible news. Heartfelt condolences to Rob and all Steve's family and friends. Rest in Peace, Steve.

david.d
March 16, 2005

i used to post on another forum but once i discovered this i was hooked. great posters , sad posters and irritating posters . no matter , we all have the love of arsenal in common. this is down to one man steve gleiber having the vision to create this forum so we could all interact and share our views of our beloved club. my deepest deepest sympathies to steve's family and friends. REST IN PEACE STEVE AND THANK YOU. GOD BLESS YOU

Bored
March 16, 2005

Very sad news. I never knew him but I always found his postings funny and he seemed like the sort of bloke you could have a good laugh with. Hopefully this site will continue because its become an important part of many peoples lives. Condolences to his friends and family.

East End Gooner
March 16, 2005

Very sad news. Condolences to you, Rob, and the rest of Steve's family. This forum and the loyal nature of its members is testament to Steve. It is difficult to imagine that he wont be banning me for swearing again. RIP Steve. Someone I would have liked to have known better.

Maurice
March 16, 2005

Steve Gleiber gave us this wonderful site. Steve gave us a place to talk about our favourite Arsenal. Steve was a passionate fan, and made us even more passionate with this wonderful site. Steve gave me reason to come into the net for "talks" with fellow fans. Steve brought us all together. Steve patiently read through each of our comments, and ensured we stayed civil. I regard Steve as the "Greatest Gooner of all Gooners" here. I am glad to have celebrated the many successes of Arsenal with you. And because of you, Gooners from all over the world could come to this site and celebrate. You made it happen, and we will always remember you. Thanks very much Stevie G, rest well now. And to the family of Steve Gleiber, my deepest condolences.

Harv Cape Town
March 16, 2005

Deepest sympathy and condolences to all Steve's kin and the Gooner family. Go well, big guy.

Evans Jean Philip
March 16, 2005

I have never posted on this site, but have viewed many people's comments since the early days, when Steve was more active in participating with the debates. My thoughts and condolences go out to your family Steve. You have brought together a community which fosters useful debate and insight into all things Arsenal. I hope the site continues to lives up to your expections. Thanks for bringing us together. May you rest in peace.

Bernard
March 16, 2005

Rob, so sorry to hear the bad, though not really unexpected, news. Condolences to you and the rest of Steve's family.

Eskimo
March 16, 2005

Rest in Peace Steve Glieber and condolences to your family.

Juliano
March 16, 2005

This forum has been part of my life for a while now, and I remember logging on the IRC chat during matches and Steve would always throw me out because of swearing, or because of the scripts that automatically sent you off if you wrote "Sheringham" or "Anelka". It is a very sad news, I never met him but you know what it's like on the net, you can "feel" someone. At only 42 and a father of three, I want to send my deepest condoleances to everyone linked with him but especially his close family. I knew the writing was on the wall when I read how serious his illness was, since I lost my mother two years ago from cancer, but there is always a possibility of an exception. This wasn't to be in, but I'm sure he gave this terrible disease a run for it's money. Rest In Peace, Steve Gleiber.

Nouveau Soccer
March 16, 2005

Rob, my sympathy and condolences to you and the rest of your family.

Steve Martin Football is not everything
March 16, 2005

You brought a great many Gooners together to discuss Arsenal with fans they would not normally do so… I‘ve learned a lot from many on here, Wines, interesting things I did not know about the Club, Philosophy to mention a few… Always sad to hear someone so young pass away from Cancer, I hope your site lives on in your memory and condolences to your family… RIP Mr G…

Västerås Gooner
March 16, 2005

Steve Gleiber,Rest in peace.My condolences to his family.

tom
March 16, 2005

Choked. RIP Steve, your site will live on. Condolences to you and your family Rob, I'm so glad you were able to put that book together for Steve last year to show him how much he meant to us all. C'MON ARSENAL.

ed
March 16, 2005

Rob K - my condolences to you and Steve's family.So sad to hear the news this morning...Have been on this site more or less daily since '98 and what a site steve has given us...Will toast a pint of the black stuff in Steve's Honour tomorrow..May he rest in peace....

Bodies In The Box
March 16, 2005

Very sad news about Steve. I'd just like to add my deepest condolences to you and all of your family Rob. Let's hope that his name can live on forever through this superb forum.

Barry
March 16, 2005

Steve Gleiber, you have my greatest respect and love. You have touched many lives. "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 8.God bless you, Steve and thank you for this great site. I will pray for you tonight.

Trisagion
March 16, 2005

Dave S this is not the time to be indulging in one of your lectures to the forum your own posts are often couched in aggressive and abusive phrases. Practice what you preach.

No Prisoners
March 16, 2005

....To a man I never met, but hold in high esteem, rest in peace Steve.

NAIROBI GOONER
March 16, 2005

I have been a consistent reader of this site and in all my arsenal supporting years i have learnt alot more from this site than anywhere else,my condolence to the family of the man who made that possible,RIP steve G,am sure if given an opportunity such a site will be established in heaven for all the other gooners who went there before you.

Andy In Singapore
March 16, 2005

Deepest Sympathy to all Steve's family. Like many others this site is a daily read for me because it is a class above the other forums, and although I did not know Steve, I beleive that this class was a reflection of him. RIP.

Dave S
March 16, 2005

So upset to hear the news about Steve. It's a testimony to the uniqueness of his site that I am checking it every day despite travelling round India! I can't believe we wil never see the good old yellow text to make us realise we are misbehaving! But Steve was never controlling, just passionate about his site. And it was so much more than just setting up a site with his internet skills - the change in the site since he has been away from it more lately shows how he subtly but actively guided it. The greatest respect we can pay to show how much this site means to us is to keep arguing and discussing but never invoking disresect or hatred. Steve used to say that the aim of the site was to recreate in cybersace the sort of conversations we would have in a pub - which would occasionally veer off into politics or even wine - but not into disrespect. Let's try to keep it that way. My sincerest condolences to you Rob and all of Steve's family. And a big up to you too Steve. Thanks mate - you have certainly touched a lot of lives - and what more can anyone do with theier lives but that?

Pompey Gooner
March 16, 2005

Been reading this site for years, started posting this year... the only Arsenal Site i post on... the reason i post on this site only? Coz its about the only Arsenal Forum not littered with filth, hatred and vulgarity. And from reading over the years its clear that Steve G was THE influence behind this approach. Obviously, a very decent man indeed. Condolences to all his family and friends.

P4E
March 16, 2005

Rob K - my condolences to you and Steve's family. Steve - may God bless your soul. Thank you.

Keith
March 16, 2005

My thoughts are with Steve's family .RIP Steve and thanks for the dedication to this site .

babu
March 16, 2005

Condolences to the family and friends, it puts everything into perspective.Thanks for everything, RIP.

Alan
ceo@ola.com.au
March 16, 2005

I can't believe what I am reading concerning my friend Steve. Jesus. Steve and I worked together on many projects involving the internet and spent hours upon hours on the phone discussing all things Arsenal. Things have not gone overly well for me in the last months and I had lost touch with the dudeman. If there is anything I can do for you Rob, including keeping the forum going in Steve's name, you only have to ask. It's all to late to say sorry for the loss of contact now but I shall remember you my friend and all the laughs we had. My deepest deepest sympathy to the family and friends who, like so many of us, will surely miss this special guy.

Steve c/o Coldiz in Germany
March 16, 2005

Sorry to hear the news rob.Hopefully steve will be above us looking down and still laughing at the spuds.RIP

Roast Beef
March 16, 2005

Rob, please convey my condolences to the family. I feel totally gutted, It's like I have just lost a good friend, a friend, who for just about every day for the last eight years has provided me a sanctuary for all things Arsenal. Steve, I thank you for your dedication to the cause, you will be sadly missed.

Azinoz
March 16, 2005

Rob, please pass on my deepest sympathies to all the family. I didn't know him but I am sure he will be sadly missed. I live in Sydney and would be happy to attend the funeral on behalf of the forum. I believe you have my email address if you want to pass on the details.

Young Man of Hoy
March 16, 2005

Thoughts go to Steve and his family tonight. thank you for bringing like minded people together to share something they loved. RIP

Yorkshire
March 16, 2005

I’m so sorry to hear the very sad news. Condolences and deepest sympathy to his family. RIP Steve.

Genève Gooner
March 16, 2005

Steve Gleiber, I never met you but your site helped me through some tedious days (and evenings sometimes). The only site I've looked at consistently since 1998. Respect. RIP.

James - Copenhagen
March 16, 2005

Good on ya, Steve, got out while we were still Champions, class. You are probably roomed up with Dave Allen, for your sins, May your God go with you.

Matthew Wade
March 16, 2005

Very sad news indeed....rather puts everything in perspective. I hope Steve was aware of how much of an impact he had on us as strangers in this, only one part of his life. Sincerest condolences to his family and friends. Not much point saying any more........

Gynae James
March 16, 2005

Like most on this site, I knew Steve Gleiber by name only and by the occassional post making we sure we all behaved. Condolescences to his friends and family and our thanks for creating such a wonderful site that brings so many of us with a commom love together.I echo the previous comment that I'm sure he would want us to continue our regular ramblings unchecked.

Daz
March 16, 2005

Really sorry to hear that news, Rob, and many condolences to you and the rest of his family.

AmericanGooner
March 16, 2005

At the risk of being told I'm insensitive as well as my own sense of courtesy and common decency, I'm posting this link regarding Cole: http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/3465040 I recall a while back on more than a few occassions where either Steve or those that knew him personally said he preferred the site to go on, joked about sentimentality, especially about his person and his main concern was admirably not himself but continuing the site and discussing his love for Arsenal which binds us all. I still feel like I am know him in strange way even though we've never met.

Niall
March 16, 2005

I'm very sorry to hear this news. I'm sure Steve is now up sharing a pint and a joke with Herbert Chapman, Rocky Rocastle and the boys in red from the past who have passed on before him. My prayers are with Steve and his family. God bless.

DHD
March 16, 2005

Rob K - That's the sad news we all dreaded. Steve was a great man who touched the lives of many. He made a difference and he won't be forgotten. Please accept my sincerest condolences to you and to all of Steve's family both in Australia and in UK. May I also offer thanks and admiration for a life well lived.

Colin from Israel
March 16, 2005

It is with deep regret that I read Rob's announcememnt and tribute to Steve.I had the pleasure and honour of meeting Steve some years ago, he was an amazing character.My condolences to all his family, friends, and all those who have enjoyed his wonderful Arsenal site over the years.

Guzzi
March 16, 2005

Just got back from work and read the very sad news. Although I rarely post on the site, I feel compelled to offer my condolences to Steve's close friends and family and also add a few words to what will no doubt become a deluge over the next few hours. For the past three years or more this forum has for me been one of the few constants in the generally fickle world of football/internet/arsenal whateveryouwanttocallit. I log on just about every day and in a strange and very beguiling way feel privileged to have shared a small part in the sometimes silly, sometimes informative, sometimes maddening but usually thought provoking world of this forum. I think it's true to say that this site has been one of the more interesting places on the net for us gooners to congregate. Indeed just about everyone I've introduced to it appears to have become addicted to it in some small way. Steve, wherever you are, if you can here me, I would like to raise a glass to you tonight. PTBAG.

North Bank Mural
March 16, 2005

I never knew you but Thanks for creating the site Steve. Thoughts and condolences to your family. Certainly puts all else into perspective.

Brett
March 16, 2005

I will spare a thought for Steve tonite. May the Gooner spirit guide you. RIP.

Nico
March 16, 2005

Rob, that news about Steve is very very sad, if not totally surprising. Please accept my condolences and those of my boys who introduced me to his brilliant sites.

Nico
March 16, 2005

dormouse, your comments are most kind. I too very much appreciate those who, like yourself, offer something new, informative, serious or just plain witty and entertaining. This is a wonderful site for anyone to show how highly they value not only the Club, in respect both of its footballing side and its governors, but also the whole Arsenal family as represented by some truly terrific supporters. The love for the Club on here is truly infectious and that's ok by me, and I don't propose to leave the forum in a hurry, it's just that I have so little time these days to play on it! Anyway, there are some folks who irritate us all at times, and probably the best way to deal with those who get on our tits is to ignore them once and for all, a fate I am sure I have suffered a few times myself, quite deservedly. In the meantime, it would be wrong of me to withhold from you (and any others on here genuinely and open-mindedly interested) my own personal sense that the salaries at the Club are less Wenger's business than the player purchasing side, which, if it were the case, may represent a very difficult grey area. It may, for example, be the case at most clubs that the board is in charge of both areas, but at Arsenal, the manager SEEMS to have more say in transfers/player purchasing than in wages, and that's out of sync and needs to be put back into a form of better balance. If this does not happen, in my opinion it leaves things open for the wrong people to play boss where they shouldn't be, whilst agents and players are given the perfect opportunity to bounce parties off against each other, generating an unharmonious and unhealthy atmosphere. The Club should in a word unite behind Wenger 100% if they haven't done so already. Otherwise we will continue to struggle to sign players and to keep the ones we've got, no less. As I say, though, this sentiment is just a suspicion (not a conspiracy theory, nor do I hold any rancour over it or any obsessive feelings), and not knowledge, and I hope to get back with some more of that in due course. In the meantime, I'm more than happy with things as they currently stand both as a fan and a shareholder and I believe the Club will sort or improve things as time goes by as they have been doing for some time under Fiszman and Wenger, who effectively control Arsenal FC. It remains one of the best run clubs in the world, we are lucky to be fans of it, and we should appreciate the efforts of both board and footballing staff in making it so, and get behind them as caringly as possible.

Charlie
charles.lawrence@dionach.com
March 16, 2005

OMG!! I just found out froma message I missed earlier today I'm really sad about this nothing has realy touched me like this in my adult life before this is tough. I first meet Steve back in the early eighties before he moved to sydney with the family - I really dont know what to say he was a great man & still is to. he'll always be remembered - He worked with my mum in in younger days and I remember them laughing a lot together I can see em now - i guess its what we'd now say LOL to but he made everyone laugh out loud! - Condolances to Steve's family and friends .RIP Steve.

Richie
March 16, 2005

Very sad news about Steve. So young. My sincere condolences to his family and friends. Rest in peace.

Brazil 70
March 16, 2005

Very sad to hear the news about Steve Gleiber.The image I had of him from this forum was that of a very decent human being.My condolences to his family.

AmericanGooner
March 16, 2005

I'll echo the others sentiments and add my sincerest condolences. Rob K, please, pass this and the other condolences to his family so that they know he has touched many people around the world.

Mee
March 16, 2005

I am a newcomer to this forum and understand little of its history. One thing I have recognized from your postings is the respect and admiration forum members have for Steve. I think the quality of debate and discussion on this forum is testament to his energy in creating the site and is in a sense the finest tribute forum members could pay to him. Thanks Steve.

Exiled In Newcastle
March 16, 2005

Rob - my sincere condolences to you and your family, and my eternal thanks to Steve for what he created. Peace.

goonerguru
March 16, 2005

I am so so sorry to see that Steve has passed away,although like most people on here,I didn't know him I feel like it's one of my own family that I have lost,RIP Steve you will be truely missed.

Ben
March 16, 2005

Just to say thank you to Steve for creating all of this and offer my condolences to his family and friends, he will be sorely missed.

Cannon
March 16, 2005

Condolances to Steve's family and friends .RIP Steve.

Andy Green
March 16, 2005

Deepest condolences,Rob K and to all of Steve's friends and family.This is a very sad day for all of us.

Fred
March 16, 2005

I'm Gutted. RIP Steve! Thanks for everything.

Rob K
March 16, 2005

Dear Forum - I am very sad to have to say that my wonderful cousin Steve Gleiber, host & of the forum, passed away a few hours ago. Stevie was only 42 years old but has finally lost his battle with cancer. He is survived by his loving family Jutka, Janche & Susie and his wonderful partner Angela. He was a big guy with a bigger heart. Even though he in lived in Sydney, and we, his maternal family, live in the UK he was always a large part of all of our lives and we loved him dearly. He loved his family & partner, life & Arsenal passionately. I miss him already.

AmericanGooner
March 16, 2005

Last night I saw the movie trailer for the American version of 'Fever Pitch'. I was saddened by it. Its a comedy and its about the Boston Red Sox. It didn't look promising. **** If Reyes does leave we will be short a winger on the left. In some games why not have Ash play on the left and Clichy as LB as he did in the Sheff Utd game? Ash did a great job as winger. Ash, Pires and even Freddie can play on the left (Freddie prefers the left I read a few times). If we don't get SWP, then I strongly encourage AW to put Quincy on the right. In games where we need pace and dribbling on the right, he's the perfect player. I'd prefer Eboue as RB on that side but Quincy would give us options on the right that we don't have. The good thing about having Ash and Quincy on the same side is that they interchanged positions at times, and overlapped very well. They did that well in the game.

Joe Soap
March 16, 2005

If St Patrick drove all of the snakes out of Ireland then how come Sean is still there

Cannon,.
March 16, 2005

Aerican,there is a worse scenario even than the unlikely Spuds one - Manure !!. Yep ,it's been rumoured that he could be of interest to them and Edu himself admitted that he would cobnsider a move there. Recnt results and possible in-coming players could see Gerrard stay at Liverpool ,if not RM look favourites,he turned down Chelsea at the start of season and i would hazard a guess that the same reasons that he had then for not joining the Abramovich circus would still apply now.

Dem's de rules
March 16, 2005

A prize for whoever spots this on TV tonight.

AmericanGooner
March 16, 2005

Regarding Edu. Ranieri is gone. He was the one that was most interested. Has the new manager shown any interest in Edu? I haven't heard he has. Barca was also rumored but with Deco and Ronaldinho are they still interested? I'm not saying Edu won't be sought after but if Valencia are out and Barca aren't interested then whoever is the alternative may not be a club that fits his desire. Namely, a fairly big club that will give him a starting position. He may reconsider and want to stay here if he has a great spring. Stranger things have happened. I just hope he doesn't go to any PL side. I can see Liverpool picking him if Gerrard leaves, Newcastle as well are clubs that have the money to pay his wages and may need a center mid. God forbid Spurs offers him a contract. We'll be hearing 'chimera chimera chim chim cheroo you got Sol Campbell but we got Edu'....perish the thought!!

AmericanGooner
March 16, 2005

Danger, Dortmund will be ripe for the picking as they are 'skint' as you guys say. I am hoping we're going over their roster with a fine tooth comb now and perhaps contact them early and get the pick of the bunch before the vultures (Man Yoo, Bayern Munich, etc.) start circling. Eskimo, they are broke...Leeds territory broke. **** Parkerknoll Gooner, yes, I'll keep an eye on the Hamburg defender. Maybe Benitez will use the Gerrard money to buy SWP. I've not heard they are interested but it wouldn't surprise me.

AmericanGooner
March 16, 2005

Simon, agree about Ash. Also, it looks bad if we are paying foreign players higher but not a 'home-grown' player who came up through the ranks. Sol, notwithstanding, as his wages and situation were very unique. Ralph, the rumor was that he was offered 40k a week, 13k more than the estimated 27k/wk he's being paid now. Now its been said on here its 60k a week which is a good contract and within our wage structure. If we did renege on it, then I am hoping Wenger and the board have seen the error of their ways and will try to make good. Villa got off with a slap on the wrist when they tapped up Beattie, so I can't see anything much stronger than what they received. **** How does one become a referee? **** Roma are having a lot of problems, recently sacking their manager. I know he had that spitting incident but Mexes is a quality defender. Perhaps we can get him.

Mee
March 16, 2005

Whatever the outcome of the AC3 debacle, Chelsea now believe themselves to be above the law. Mourinho’s recent behaviour threatens to undermine any grudging respect they may earned through the quality of their football and results this season. If he continues in this vein, aided and abetted by Kenyon, any silverware they may bring to the club will be devalued. Wenger’s assertion that their success has been ‘artificial’ has given legitamacy to supporters across the country who drew this conclusion as soon as Abrahamovic’s helicopter landed at the bridge. What I find particularly nauseating about Mourinho, is that after initial reaction to any particular incident, be it the criticism of Frisk, his bad mouthing of Carragher or his provocative gesture to the Liverpol fans at the Carling Cup Final, he always modifies his earlier response to suggest that his motives have been misinterpreted. He occupied the high moral ground after defeating the typically uncharitable Ferguson in last years CL, and his demenour and tactical awareness made him a welcome addition to the Premier League at the start of this season - here was another Ranieri we thought. I suspect Kenyon knew otherwise, his relentless pursuit of Mourinho suggests that he recognized some shared characteristics which would ultimately give Chelsea playing success, but very little else.

East End Gooner
March 16, 2005

One thing I do have to say is that IF (and I still cant believe anyone, even an agent, could be that stupid) Barnett did set up the meeting, Arsenal MAY have a runnable action against him. The problem with the "non-solicit" clause Dein was talking about is that it is nigh on impossible to stop someone listening to approaches from another party so any sensible advisor would tell you to sit and wait or at least make sure there is no trail. It was always alleged that Chelsea set up the meeting. If it was in fact Barnett (and I still think Chelsea are just using their might to make it his word against two or three of theirs and give the Premier League an easy out) then he COULD have a problem. Wouldn't expect any action though as you have the double problem of a questionable action and the problem of in effect going against your own player.

East End Gooner
March 16, 2005

Parkerknoll - not my specific area but I reckon a transfer activity ban would stand up. There are lots of other employers in the market and the argument that Chelsea are the only ones rich enough to pay doesn't seem a runner.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 16, 2005

PSV Eindhoven midfielder Mark van Bommel is set to announce which club he intends to join within a fortnight. An obvious Spuds target. Mr Wenger would not sanction any announcement!

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 16, 2005

Simple solution to deter Chelsea and others: TWO point deduction plus small fine, with a clause of escalation (x3 or x5)when caught/suspected again.

Bernard
March 16, 2005

I'm not a lawyer but I'd imagine Parkerknoll is right. Where's Harrow or Steve Martin, as isn't there some problem with EEG's work computer not being able to load the forum so he won't be around for a while, a bit like Bristol (albeit for different reasons).

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 16, 2005

M' learned friend E*G may cast his expert eye over this case and better advise us, my feeling is he would not have a leg to stand on. If he's that desperate to come back to the UK and work my local B&Q are looking for weekend staff so the hours at least would suit him.

Cannon.
March 16, 2005

Jesus Rodriguez de Moyes, Reyes agent met David Dein today, according to the Standard, to find find out what terms Arsenal want for him to move to RM in the summer. I wonder if Dein asked him, Jesus will you swear on the Bible...

Cannon
March 16, 2005

PG, picture this scenario if that transfer embargo was imposed. Beckham,just an example,decides that he wants a return to England,Chelsea are the only club happy to have him come to them, or more llikely the ones that can afford him, but because of the embargo can't oblige. Beckham takes the case to court claiming HIS rights are being infringed by the embargo,and challenges it.It seems to me that only a points deduction works,and the Prem'panel should run it up the flag-pole and see who salutes it.

Bernard
March 16, 2005

Vince, like Parkerknoll I also took the embargo to be on signings, not sales. Perhaps it would mean Parker might even get a game or two occasionally, so maybe he'd welcome it.

goonerguru
March 16, 2005

Hardy Eustace wins the Champion Hurdle 7-2 fv,get in there my boy,you heard it here first!!!

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 16, 2005

Vin Ordinaire - the transfer embargo would be on incoming transfers therefore not punishing individual players who may wish to leave but not allowing the club to make new acquisitions. Perfect scenario would be for them to get a 2 year ban on signing players and then their 1st eleven, whoever they might be, all demanding to leave the club!

Vince Ordinaire
March 16, 2005

You're probably right that a points deduction would be best, I just don't like the idea myself, even though it could obviously benefit us. I don't expect the FA to hit Chelsea with a massive fine, certainly not big enough to make a difference, but I think they should. They've never shown any reluctance to make money from our misdemeanours, so why look a gift horse in the mouth now? The Chelsea phenomenom is entirely defined by money, that's why I think that a truly enormous fine would be fitting. But I know it's not going to happen.

Cannon.
March 16, 2005

Any sort of fine in the case of Abramovich is a waste of time and space. And let's face realty here, it is he, and not Chelsea football club, who have no money, that will pay it. Only a points decuction, or an embargo on transfer dealings,which is legally risky, and challengable in law, and could drag on through the legal system for sometime. Of the three options only the points deduction looks like it would have any effect on Chelsea, ourselves and Unlited have suffered this penalty in the past and so there is a legal precedent for it.and it is in the rules. I expect though that if imposed, that it will be just a toothless suspended sentence.Afacade of justice and punishment having ben dealt out to the miscreant club. This will have in realty no effect on the Manc Kenyon's activities, other than to make him more careful in his future subversive activities on behalf of his odious boss.

Vince Ordinaire
March 16, 2005

Mee - The point is that a punishment should be a punishment in effect, not just in name. It should work as a deterrent as well. Chelsea's wealth and free-spending mean that a "usual" punishment of say £20,000 or so would be meaningless. It's not even small change to them. I believe there is some precedent in the British courts for cases which are punished by fines. For example if a low-paid shop-worker, and a wealthy stock-broker are both convicted of comparable cases of reckless driving, the shop-worker may be fined say £100, while the stock-broker has to pay £500 based on their relative means. I believe this is a fairly recent development, and probably doesn't arise that often, but perhaps some of our legal experts can shed some light. Bernard - regarding the restraint of trade argument, I think the point is it's unfair to punish players for the action of the club which they had nothing to do with. If a transfer embargo was placed on Chelsea, Scott Parker for instance would be unable to move to another club to benefit his own career, and through no fault of his own. Players would effectively be held prisoner. I think this would be unfair, and the whole transfer embargo would be a can of worms. My point is, it's quite normal and reasonable for the FA to impose financial penalties. It's also quite reasonable that they should be related to the club's means. Therefore Chelsea would be a unique case in that the fines would have to be simply enormous. If they obeyed the rules they wouldn't have a problem, but if they insist on flouting the rules appropriate fines should be imposed. A small fine which is effectively not a punishment and not a deterrent would not be appropriate.

Mee
March 16, 2005

Bernard: You could be right - Perhaps I’m giving the FA’s egalitarian stance too much creedance?

Benard
March 16, 2005

Mee, but would Norwich have had the same fine as Arsenal following that Old Trafford fracas? Or would Worthington had got the same fine as Wenger if he'd called van Nistelrooy a cheat? The offence (if that's the right word) occured because it was Chelsea, or to be specific because of Chelsea's wealth.

James - Copenhagen
March 16, 2005

Anyone fancy a West Brom upset tonight, a draw even?

Mee
March 16, 2005

Bernard - surely the punishment has to fit the crime, not the defendents ability to pay it?

Mee
March 16, 2005

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2005/03/15/sfnhay15.xml&sSheet=/sport/2005/03/15/ixfooty.htmInteresting piece by Paul Hayward . . .

Bernard
March 16, 2005

Mee, are you sure the FA cannot look at the individual resources of any club when fixing a level of fine? This all happened precisely because of Chelsea's financial resources, no other reason. If Tottenham had been the other club I can't see the meeting ever taking place because they wouldn't have the influence over whoever set it up that Chelsea did (the agent?) because of their respective resources. Therefore, isn't the merits of the case that it occured because it was Chelsea? I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong. And are you also sure they can't and don't look at a club's resources when setting a fine? How much was Wenger fined for calling van Nistelrooy a cheat, and how much was Arsenal fined after the fracas at Old Trafford last season. Would Curbishly and Charlton had received the same fines if they'd done the same things, or Redknapp and Southampton, or Worthington and Norwich, and so on and so on? I'm not convinced by this restraint of trade idea either. So if Chelsea are banned from buying anyone for a length of time, every Tom, Dick and Harry are going to be running off to their lawyers moaning about restraint of trade because they reckon Chelsea would otherwise had signed them. Just doesn't seem likely to me.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 16, 2005

It makes me laugh when I see articles about Chelsea having ‘Chief Scouts’ and ‘Mega Agents’. Why do they bother? What skill is there in watching EuroSport or reading about a possible Wenger target and sending in the ‘Mega Agent’ to offer £30m each time plus £100kper week. Somehow Chelsea have missed out on the big stars due mainly to distrust and lack of pedigree. Why would a young Henry, Ronaldo or Zidane go to Stamford Bridge unless it was for money? However, there are very few kids around the Globe that kick a ball imagining they are JOHN ‘kick lumps’ TERRY or FRANK ‘kiss badge’ LAMPARD.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 16, 2005

What a master stroke by Mr Wenger! I have been regularly calling for someone at Highbury to address our poor PR problem. ManU, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool are full of foreign players but only Arsenal is classed as a “French Club” by media and chat show pundits alike. Who believes that the arrival of OWEN will a) change us to “an English Club” overnight, b) cause us to be more likely to get STEVE GERRARD? Conspiracy theorists (like me) assume that DEIN, WENGER & ASHLEY COLE have deliberately ‘smoked out’ Chelsea into losing any chance of GERRARD in the Summer and we will then become the “media darlings at a stroke! Why would GERRARD go to REAL MADRID to play second fiddle to Soccer Skills magnate BECKHAM when he can play with his old mates MICHAEL OWEN, ASHLEY COLE, SOL CAMPBELL, THIERRY HENRY & PADDY VIEIRA?

Mee
March 16, 2005

James LT/Vince: The FA’s response to the AC affair, if Chelsea are indeed found guilty, will at best, take the form of points deduction, and at worst a suspended transfer ban (like ours) or most likely a fine. I wish the fine would take acount of Chelsea’s financial position and be levied at a rate which would act as some kind of deterrent, but in reality the FA cannot look at the individual resources of any club when fixing a level of fine. Failure to do so is tantamount to saying that the initial offence is not being judged on its own merits, but rather on the ability of the club or individual to pay an unreasonable fine. I imagine Chelsea’s lawyers would enjoy the the imposition of a transfer ban, surely individual players could then invoke the ‘restraint of trade’ contractural detail and begin another lengthy Bosman style debate around the law courts of Europe. (I’m sure had our ban not been suspended, we would have made similar noises) My guess is that the FA will issue a points deduction warning, and a fine that could realistically be paid by even the Premier League’s less well-off clubs.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 15, 2005

Vince Ordinaire-Great post mate! You've made two realy interesting points. Your first point on the AC3 saga is spot-on. If we did renegade on giving him 60,000 then there is a serious problem at the Club. Indeed, after reading what AC3's supposedly said at this hearing then I dont blame him for acting the way he's done. If anyone on this forum had shaken hands on a deal only to see it then renegaded on then I'm sure we would all be very bitter. Indeed it says a lot about AC3's feelings for the Club that however p****d off he was he made it very clear to both his agent, and those idiots from chelscum that he wouldnt join another English Club. I'm not even sure his own agent is to blame here. I'm now thinking that he (AC3's agent) asked for a meeting with this so-called 'super-agent' to try and set up a deal with either Barca or Madrid. I think it was this 'super-agent' who then contacted chelscum and told them to simply turn up at this meeting. AC3, to his credit only stayed five minutes and then left. Scandelous behaviour but then what do you expect from a side that now thinks its above all the laws set out in football. There is something about all of this though, that if true worries the hell out of me. We're going into possibly the most important summer we've had under AW (in terms of transfers), and he must get the right players in. Its therefore rather worrying to hear that the board have made such a cock-up of holding on to one of the few world-class players we have! Doesnt bode well for all those transfer negotiations we're hoping for in the summer! As for your point about Anders Frisk I totally agree with you and Nico on this one and I doubt we're the only ones not to be rather suspicious about the death threats he's recieved. It, unfortunately says a lot about chelscum at present that we can make a connection between the two. Very sad times indeed. Come on Arsenal.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 15, 2005

Regarding Frey I remember reading an article 18mths-2 years ago that AW had actually met with Frey, West End Hotel perhaps!, and after spending 30 mins. chatting with him left the room and turned to DD and said something along the lines of "... he's absolutely barking!". I don't think the Frenchman will be at Highbury/AG anytime soon. My gut feeling is AW will sign one of Abbiati or the young Czech (Cechs understudy) whos name escapes me.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 15, 2005

JamesLT- I've advocated that as a punishment from day one, it's so obviously the one censure that would really affect them I'm surprised it's not gathered more pace in the media. Goonerguru - a good point but I would ensure that if any evidence was proven about ANY activity I would extend the ban for another 12-18 months, if after 3 hits they are found guilty again they're out and relegated. All this may seem fancifull but the FA/PL do have the powers to see it through and do have previous for both forms of punishment. Time the powers that be grew some balls and looked at the wider implications of the money launderers good fortune.

Ben
March 15, 2005

Bernard - I have heard that as well and it does seem to suggest that there is something about him of which Wenger is not convinced. Frey has announced that he will definately go in the summer but if that will be enough to persuade Wenger to make a move i'm not sure, as far as I know he doesn't have an obvious attitude problem like a Pennant or a Diouf so maybe Wenger just doesn't rate him. I remember his agent coming out and saying we had made contact with him, which Arsene of course denied, so there is the possibility that we could have tapped him up and been put off by his or his agents demands. For me he is young, talented and available at the right price where as the likes of Given and Cudicini would be older and probably more expensive. With Hildebrand deciding he is staying in Germany our options appear to have been cut down.

goonerguru
March 15, 2005

James if the FA was to give Chelsea a 1 year ban on transfers it would as you say hit them where it hurts,but I dont think it would help other teams to sign any of the players they may be intrested in,I'm sure they would have all their transfer targets tied into some deal that either lets them stay on loan or playing for another club for 12 months all paid for by the Chav's millions.

Daz (God's Englishman)
March 15, 2005

See Sean it's reactions like that that do you no favours at all. I'm confident that your little fenian compatriot can distinguish between a bit of gentle teasing and Bloody Sunday. But I can assure you that I am totally biased against the Irish national football team and happy when they lose. Never been sure why you lot and the Sweaties think that's a right only you have.

JamesLT
Ashley Cole
March 15, 2005

The Ashley Cole investigation looks difficult to resolve with all parties apparently offering different explanations for their meeting. However, if Chelsea are found guilty of trying to tap-up Cole, surely the best penalty would not be a points reduction or a fine but a transfer ban... Remember we are currently serving a suspended one year ban on all transfer activities "just" for inadvertently using an unregistered agent to renegotiate Quincy's contract... If Chelsea were given a one-year ban (NOT suspended) it would hit them very hard and would remove there one key advantage over other teams.

Cannon.
March 15, 2005

There is something disturbingly worrying about this triparite involving, Abramovich - Kenyon - Mourinho at a small club like Chelsea for the future of football. This 'menage a trois' of repulsiveness requires some serious action to break up it's activities, a bucket of cold water thrown over them or the chopping off of their heads with an axe, figuratively speaking. The obstreperous attitude to any censor or control by the arrogant Mourinho also needs to be addressed after the disgraceful Frisk afair. Money is obviously the main weapon that the loathsome threesome are using in their war on the football world, and this is one area where the other major football clubs can act to prevent the further corrosion of the sport by this sinister use of wealth on the part of Chelsea . A wage capping could be introduced to bring reality back into the game. How can anyone justfy a club that is struggling to sell it's tickets for home games, at a time when it is having the most succesful period of it's history, paying out wages to players like it does?. Wengers statement that the whole thing is artificial is just the tip of the iceberg, it's obscene and damaging to the sport. Why should real football clubs be forced to pay ludicrous wages to match Chelsea, a richmans plaything ?, a club with no past and a decidely uncertain future too, when Abramovich leaves the building.

JamesLT
March 15, 2005

AMERICAN: Agree with you on Frank Rost. The Germans, like the Italians, have been spoiled with good keepers over the last five to ten years. That's clear when players like Rost have hardly got near the national team. It's the same now with great talent like Hildebrand and Jentsch on the periphery... ... ... ... ... I agree with the person who posted on the Anders Frisk situation. It seems unprecedented to me and I'm surprised it hasn't got more attention. There should be a UEFA investigation into what actually happened. The threats must have been much more serious or of a more personal nature than the usual mindless abuse or phone calls that is supposedly directed at refs. Anyone refereeing a Chelsea match will surely be much more careful now before making a decision against them. After all, the referees must talk among themselves and they presumably all know exactly what has gone on with Frisk...

Bernard
March 15, 2005

Ben, it's interesting about Frey as he's been an option for a very long time now. But I heard some Italian reporter say a while ago that Wenger has actually had the chance to buy him on numerous occasions, and has always passed him over in favour of someone else. The only conclusion he could reach was that there was something about Frey that Wenger really didn't like. Whether it's to do with his goalkeeping abilities, attitude, or some other off the pitch issue is another question altogether.

Ben
March 15, 2005

To be fair to Niall I do think Given is worth looking at, I would be inclined to go for him or Frey. Although I did switch the television on Sunday morning just in time to see Gary Breen, World Cup star, launching a clearance about 60 feet directly above his own head against Crewe. As for defenders I would say that Bonera, Ferrari and Kuffour (for free) are decent options. I am not convinced that Wright Phillips is worth what Man City would ask, alternatively Castellan at Feyenoord looks a similar player and would surely cost less, Mancini at Roma is very good (not Roberto) Van Der Meyde possibly and Parma have a guy called Marchionni perhaps if we buy Frey and Bonera from them we will get the third one free. I can't see us getting Essien in which case Van Bommel on a bosman seems a sensible option considering that Edu is (almost certainly) on his way out. Despite Aliadiere looking good last night we need another striker, an actual striker not a left winger posing as a striker. I think Owen could be good or failing that Martins at Inter although they may want to keep hold of him (especially if Vieri leaves) he is quite simliar to Yakubu who could also be worth a gamble as he would definately be available if we showed an interest. I realise this post consists of a list of names and little else but as everyone has said there're must be at least a couple of proven players (i.e not a Guatemalan reserve defender) coming in and it'll be interesting to see who Wenger targets.

Vince Ordinaire
March 15, 2005

Regarding the Cole situation: 1) Whoever screwed up the negotiaitions for Ash's pay-rise deserves a serious bollocking because that seems to have kicked off the whole chain of events. Once again there seems to be a Scrooge mentality running amok, and going way beyond what could be considered sensible house-keeping. It's nice to save money but sometimes you have to spend a bit or look what happens. 2) Chelsea have now admitted to attending the meeting having strenuously denied it at first. Their credibility is completely shot and the FA must come down hard on them. 3) According to Arseblog, Cole said that the Chelsea people told him they have Gerrard in the bag too, which implicates them in another high-profile case of tapping up. Good. 4) Cole's agent is saying he only spoke to Pini Zahavi and was shocked to see Mourinho and Kenyon turn up. I find that very hard to believe. Everyone knows that Zahavi has been in cahoots with Chelsea since Abramovich rolled into town..............regarding possible punishments for Chelsea: We all know that a financial penalty would be meaningless. However, there is some precedent in the courts where people are fined relative to their means. I know that it's incredibly unlikely, but isn't there a case weher the FA could say " We would normally impose a financial penalty here. But we're looking at a club which has sustained losses of £88 million quite happily and spent over £200 million in transfers in less than two years. Therefore we are fining them £100 million, because we believe that only such a figure can even make them think twice about their behaviour, and the money can do a lot of good for the game in the rest of the country." A man can always dream. Personally I'd like it best if they fined Chelsea £1 billion and split the money amongst the other Premiership clubs. That would make things really interesting in the close season............On a similar note of how the hell can the game deal with the spectre of an out of control super-rich club, I noticed Nico's post a while ago about the Anders Frisk affair. Again we have an unprecedented situation here. I certainly can't remember a referee retiring under such circumstances, and I don't think I'm being a paranoid conspiracy theorist to agree with Nico that there's a whiff of something very unpleasant linked to Chelsea here. Whatever the case, a high profile official has had death threats against him and his family, even people turning up at his house apparently, just days after giving a controversial decision against Chelsea. There's no way it won't affect at least some other officials when they ref Chelsea games in the future. I have no answers to this problem, but it's a terrible, terrible situation which potentially could be the ruin of the game. I know some people will think that it's just sour grapes, or jealousy, or whatever, but frankly I think those people are idiots. This is not about Arsenal failing to defend the title, this is about the future of football as we know it. The playing field is being tilted, and all our worst fears about the impact of Abramovich seem to be coming true. I'd be interested to know if others think I am over-reacting, but I don't think we can just pretend it's not happening. This really is a whole new ball-game, as far as I can see.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 15, 2005

I'm wondering if the £5k reduction was meant to be a slap down for Dein rather than Cole, KE and others may have thought DD was exceding his authority by agreeing such a pay hike. American - you asked if any other clubs had shown an interest in SWP, well it's been widely reported today that SWP is having Spanish lessons so it must be obvious he sees his future at Liverpool, remember that Hamburg cb is the one with the North African sounding name.

GARY
March 15, 2005

Latest from SKY is that JAR's agent is trying to broker a price that will allow him to leave

Sean
March 15, 2005

Daz: you are a silly cant. Take your stupid anti-Irish bias and shove it up your fat arse you ignorant twat.

Bernard
March 15, 2005

Clive, I simply think football has moved on and the greatest players do more than just score. And by the way I've never said Bentley should play up-front, I think with his creativity he's far more cut out for midfield. But alongside Henry I'd want someone a bit better than Owen, who I genuinely don't think would improve the side. He'd get a few goals; but I don't think there's any real chance that someone so limited would make the team better overall. I believe we'd lose cohesion in our forward play, as I'm not convinced this fox in the box idea suits us. Having said that, you have your opinion and I have mine; I just desperately hope neither of us have the opportunity to be proved right or wrong through him joining and either being a relative success or failure. Now was that so painful?

Eskimo
March 15, 2005

Danger - how broke are Dortmund? I'm wondering about Metzelder. Is he still injury prone or is he getting regular games now?

Alan Shearer
March 15, 2005

Talking to yourself again Phil?.

Fat Sam
March 15, 2005

http://www.football365.com/fun_downloads/lookalikes/story_146159.shtml

Niall
March 15, 2005

Daz, stop being such a big tart. Graham Kavanagh gets the odd game for Ireland and I'm not suggesting we sign him up to replace Vieira. Give me something constructive. Onto sensible posters and its good to see Gaz and Rich agreeing with the Given shout (I would have included you Cannon but I said sensible.) Onto the Ashley Cole rumours and Nico, what do you say about the stories the board reneged on £5K a week resulting in this Cole episode. If true, then it does prove my point at the weekend that there is no point having £40m if the board aren't going to pay the wages of the top players this money could buy.

Dave S
March 15, 2005

Phil the Gooner: Cannon Balls is not a sick pervert but a first class engorged knob.

kiwipete in Nhulunbuy
March 15, 2005

DHD...am I alone in thinking our fearsome aerial ability could run amok against the Doncaster Belles if only we could find someone who could deliver it within twenty metres of the goal.

Danger
March 15, 2005

I think we should go for Rosicky from Dortmund. They are apparently broke and he could be purchased on the cheap. Also, he could be the quartrback to replace Dennis. He has been on the bench this year and is not happy there. Anyone remember his game for Sparta Prague at THOF? He scored a cracking goal. The only problem is that he is probably too similar to Cesc.

Decaf
March 15, 2005

No prisoners, you are right in the chocoldian sense that your post hoc rationalisation fits the facts as well as any other.

New defender?
March 15, 2005

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=261812&lid=8&cpid=21&title=Ferrari+ponders+English+move&channel=Italy

Decaf
March 15, 2005

Old Man of Hoy, I agree with your points on foul-mouthedness, and I just don't buy that is it a working class issue. People assimilate. People will swear if it is perceived to be 'co-ooo-ol' and if they can get away from it when in great pain or very angry. Why can't footballers do what we do on this forum? Van Nistelrooy cunningly kneecaps Vieira, Vieira should reason with him and explain the difference between the Sophists and sophistry, or in extremis, avoid getting banned by saying "E*G! off, you E*G! I'm not reading your posts any more!" Arsenal players would have a natural advantage.

Dormouse
March 15, 2005

No Prisoners - this is a good point, though you'll probably have to keep on making it. It's a particularly good point when we realise that we have been without Edu, Gilberto & Campbell for most of the season & that it has taken Vieira most of the season to find some form. I'd never have expected us to be as high as we are of I'd known we were going to have to play so many youngsters in so many matches.

Dormouse
March 15, 2005

OMOH - Agree with what you say about the need for a professional atttitude to referees, but think the other side of that coin is a consistent and professional job being done by referees & a fair and open system of dealing with players' and managers' misdemenours and statements to the media (before, during and after the match) that does not assume that the referee is always right. We know that they can never always be right however well they are trained. If the system is seen to be open and fair, there will be fewer reasons for attacks on referees, and any complaints can simply be put into the system (at the moment, none of us believe that a complaint about fairness etc is properly dealt with unless the incident is repeatedly shown on Sky).

No Prisoners
March 15, 2005

Fellow Gooners, having read various postings in relation to how our beloved team should be quartered, gutted or decimated, I believe most of us are having our judgement clouded by the concerted efforts of some members of the press i.e. Ian “effing” Ridley, Lawton etc, to undermine the achievements of this team and Arsene in particular, irrespective of what you might read or listen to, the facts are there for everyone to see, if anyone believes that manure have a chance of catching the bloody chavs, who says we can’t either, I know you might think I’m on some sort of cheap drugs but I’m not actually, manure are only 2 points ahead of us, and I am sure we are not settling for 3rd place are we?, so it’s about time we got behind this team(especially Arsene) and help drive them towards overtaking manure and FA cup success. PS : Is the concept of the “the divine proportion” being applied to AG, that place looks aesthetically appealing each time I take a peek…………

No
March 15, 2005

Dormouse
March 15, 2005

Nico - I don't remember the reasons for the Reyes disclosures, but have vague memories akin to the reports from JOhn & Azinoz. Agree with everyone who has complimented you on the way you keep everyone informed on various financial matters. Am in awe of the patience you have shown in trying to comunicate factual information to some.

Dormouse
March 15, 2005

And talking about a change in style for the strikers and 'wide' players, the other problem is that we don't have a steady spine to build it around. As someone has already pointed out Vieira has had to cope with constantly varying partners & has been our only experienced central MF player in most matches. No better behind with all the changes in the CBs, though that looks as if it is on the way to being sorted. **** Now that he is back and scoring, I'd like to see Aliadiere given a lot of time to see if he can do it at PL level. It would help to know that before plunging in to the transfer market.

Daz
March 15, 2005

Very interesting point about Given, Niall. What I've never been quite sure about is who he plays for at a national level. Perhaps you could jog my memory.

Dormouse
March 15, 2005

Matthew Wade - very good post. I agree, and I think you have raised the really big issue for AW in the summer. It's not about what players he signs or lets go, it's about how he reformulates our style. The current style is entirely built around TH, DB, FL & RP and designed to maximise TH's effectiveness. Very hard to see how it can continue the same without Dennis. There's some talk also of RP being less good, though I'm not so sure about that with the goals he has scored. Freddie remains uner-rated (presumably since he's not showy & a lot of his best work is off the ball), but it would be an open question about how well he would fit into a new style. Not sure how TH would fit into a new style either; it's not been easy to find good partners for him at any of the teams he has played for & he is far more effective for us than any other team he has played for.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 15, 2005

Woh, Simon. Its probably nearer the truth that Cole had been offered £60kpw by Arsenal and it was later surprisely lowered by £5kpw. This has caused Ashley to 'look around', but it appears he was duped by his agent and the Chelsea Israeli agent who almost certainly told Kenyon & Mourinho which hotel room he was in and they thought they could get their offer in direct while no one was watching... hopefully Ashley is not going to Chelsea and may well have cocked up the Gerrard deal also.

simon
March 15, 2005

If as some papers are reporting the whole tap row with Cole was triggered because we offered him a £5,000 rise, then we don't deserve to keep him. I would even forgive him meeting Chelsea under such circumstances. If true, it shows what a joke we are. Whats the point of making £30 mill available if you insult one of your own so badly you make him want to wait for a Bosman? He's in the top 3 left backs in the world and should be on parity with our best players. At least 50k. As the sole graduate of our youth system under Wenger we should have bent over backwards to keep him happy and show others coming through they will be rewarded for their efforts, not slapped in the face baecause of their supposed loyalty to the club.

Richie
March 15, 2005

Mee - One of the Surrey leagues but quite close to Tunbridge Wells I guess. I am not saying there was no swearing (this was when I was playing, which was last in '96) but if we swore at a ref when being spoken to then in most cases it was a booking. If a player berated another team mate for cocking up something and there was an expletive then usually the ref would not worry about it unless he felt it was getting out of control and would ask the captain to have a word with the offender. Some refs were stricter than others but in the main quite consistent. Why bleep the expletives if pro refs were wired? It's quite audible what the crowd sing when watching it on telly. Perhaps players would be shamed into not swearing knowing it was being broadcast. I know it won't happen but for one game as an experiment it would be quite good and if the game was dire then at least we could get some fun from the exchanges between the players and ref.

MEA
March 15, 2005

USM – You’ve got to agree that telling the world you have 40million to spend is not the most intelligent thing Arsenal could do! ...... American Gooner - Hilarious! 'not since our boys were in Vietnam has anyone dominated with 31% possession' ...... Gaz B/Wood – I checked and yes it is amazing… you can still buy tickets for tonight’s Chelsea game. Can someone tell me when this was last possible for Arsenal? I remember back in the early 90’s when I lived in the UK, my brother and I would have a few beers in the west end (in my drinking days!), place a few bets at Corals or Ladbrooks (including a 125/1 shot, TA to score 1st & Arsenal to win 3-1), travel up from Covent Garden on the Piccadilly line, go to the portacabin/box office and get tickets for the North Bank, enjoy a few pints down at the bar and then see us win 1-0 or something. Anyway, my point being that around 1995/6 it suddenly became nigh on impossible to pick up tickets on the day and soon after that, even going to the box office the week before was pointless. What a sham Chelsea are!

US Martin
March 15, 2005

BTW Nico, when I referred to the posters who simply want to be right and never admit they are wrong, I was not referring to you as you had apologized in your post already for your manner in it....

US Martin
March 15, 2005

John, I would worry about your post as it clearly falls under the "it takes one to know one" category which since you only read rather than post for the most part and I suspect haven't read all my posts I can't get too wound-up(maybe you're one of the wind-up merchants you refer to yourself)about it. Post regularly, man. Might find you get to know the posters better that way if that's something that suits you...Nico, I accept most of your post was written in a state, and would not even ask apology for most all of it. But the idea that I enjoy this is singularly offensive. I am not some hyper-pessimistic type like Depressed or the unforgettable(dammit!) PhilTheGooner(Spud?) and resent being compared to such people. You may think I am wrong on this, or that my arguments are ignorant, or my beliefs are crazy, But if you have read any other posts you ought to know better than what you said. I would rather have you proven 100% right and mock me for that as we go on to greater success, than to have my concerns be proven right as that would hurt Arsenal if it came to be. Two years ago I expressed similar concerns when it was uncertain we would re-sign Vieira and Pires, and questioned whether the Board was willing to make that commitment. And when they did I came on here and said I was wrong and that the Board had proven me wrong, and congratulated the Board on doing so, which is more than 90% of the posters on here are willing to do. I would rather the Board make me look stupid than anyone make Arsenal look bad. If you have read any other posts I have written then you know this much...I apologize for my tone but that remark was totally wrong and outside the bounds of reasoned debate on this...

Gynae James
March 15, 2005

Gaz...........sounds like you probably don't need any further accolades BUT excellent posts as ever yesterday. Agree with most of the restructuring, but I would solve your left-sided dilemma by not selling Ljunberg leaving him to fight for the place with RP7 with W-Phillips on the Right. He seems to have had some unfair criticism on this forum recently. The other good shout is GIVEN. Add Essien or van Bommel, King, & Owen for Reyes and we'd be sorted!!

Matthew Wade
March 15, 2005

Some musings I have on the future of the team........The problem we have at the moment with dennis is that when he plays as he can he is the most important player in our team and when he doesn't he's barely worth being picked. There are times this season (particularly at the start and a breif period during our poor run) where he was really on his game, and was incredibly influential and we looked like we could score at any time. He even got his shooting boots back for a bit. The problem is as age continunues to take its toll, pace, strength and reaction speed continue to drop off, meaning when given space he can still be deadly but in very tight, physical games he is largely ineffective. When the mancs kick us off the pitch his contribution is negligible, but when they try to play against us he is effective (see the home defeat this year, where dennis was fantastic for the first hour). This problem is exacerbated by the fact he isn't so great at picking up the pace of a game off the bench, so won't really relish the sub role he probably should have. ----------The crux is, dennis on form papers over the cracks that exist in the rest of the team pretty effectively as he is such a good link player, and very intelligent in his positioning. IF the rest of the team were better balanced we could survive better without him or rotating, but at the moment the way the team is structured to maximise the effectiveness of Dennis & Thierry's partnership makes it very difficult for any new player to occupy any of the front for positions, particularly if dennis isn't playing, ironically. without him, the effectiveness of our versionof wing play is very limited, and i can see hisimpending retirement requiring either a significant tactical re-think or spending a lot of money on someone to play the same role, as otherwise we will be falling into the trap identified by sabretooth - forcing talented rounf pegs into a a very square hole. The end of dennis could well spell the end of automatic selection of pires and ljungberg and a less free flowing frontline......indeed the effects may alter the balance of our midfield completely, as cesc is integrated into centre midifeld, presumably with a more solid wide player. It may even impact on our full-backs. --------- PErsonally I think Dennis will earn another 1 year contract, but his role will diminish slightly to that of when kanu was still playing well............however if he retires our 1st 11 next year could well have toure in a more defensive role at right back, cesc at CM, and proper up and down wingers....with freddy and pires being reserves. Certainly the team is at something of a crossroads for the first time since Overmars & Petit left, and although for different reasons, i agree with Tony Adams assessment that Bergkamp will be almost impossible to replace, leading to a change of style. -----ANy thoughts??

James - Copenhagen
March 15, 2005

A friend of mine used to work for Deutsche Bank, but quit to start up as an agent. Then when Deutsche Bank wanted someone from ABN Amro they called him and he initiated contact, broke the deal and collected 10% of the first year's salary. Placing ten of these a year meant that he more or less equalled their lavish telephone number paypacks, for a day a month at most. Deutsche Bank were happy because their hands were squeeky clean, the new employee was happy because he got the move up that he couldn't have otherwise orchestrated and the agent was happy being of service. Apply this senario to the Ashley Cole case and Chelsea are in it up to their eyeballs.

Mee
March 15, 2005

Richie: I take it the local leagues you refer to in your anti-swearing debate are based in Tunbridge Wells. I’ve spent years in local football both as a player and now as a supporter of my son’s team. During all that time the swearing both on and off the pitch would make Wayne Rooney look like the Archibishop of Canterbury. The simple fact is, apart from the occasional Ian Storey-Moore (remember him?) that football, unlike Rugby, remains the game of the working class. This is why wiring football referees up wouldn’t work, it would simply be a mass of bleeps. I gather that Rooney is now seeing an anger therapy specialist for a couple of hours a week - how long will it take at that rate to eradicate the first sixteen years from the life of the street fightin’ man? Flop Trivia - Rodney Marsh who was instrumental in losing the league title for Man City after signing from QPR. Older viewers may also remember that Malcolm Allison also signed Martin Phillips from Exeter City and Barry Silkman from Palace, I think for a few million in the days when that figure would have built AG.

AmericanGooner
March 15, 2005

Hamburg v. Dortmund is our budesliga game this week. I am going to take a closer look at the defender that was discussed on here last week. Much better than Man Yoo v. Fulham on at the same time anyway. **** John, stop being wishy washy, how do you really feel about USM's posts? haha....they have to be more favorable than the wind up merchant's at least, right? Give him that. Even my 'War and Peace' posts must be rated above them!

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 15, 2005

Reserves result: Arsenal 3 Chelsea 2 (Aliadiere 3 goals). Gilberto & young Anthony Stokes played.

John
March 15, 2005

US Martin, you are quite mad. While I fully understand the forum is for people to air their views and comments and ask questions on all things Arsenal the line has to be drawn somewhere. I have visited this site for about 2 years ( mostly just to read ) and am quite familiar with the regulars style of posting. Some are humerous, some interesting, some a bit corny and 1 or 2 obviously wind up merchants. But your posts irratate the c*** out of me. You bang on about this that & the other and come out with outlandish conspiracy theories usually involving some sleight of hand by the board. I find them insulting and frankly they sound like idiotic ramblings from someone who hasn't a clue what they are talking about. If you are going to post something please stop making a fool of yourself. The reason the details on the Reyes deal were published was it happened just after the Saha to Utd deal and there were eyebrows raised at the amount the agent(s) involved were paid. The Arsenal board, if my memory is correct, said something along the lines that from now on they would give details of aspects of the deals to show they were not in the biz of handing over millions to agents who do f*** all for football in general and players in particular.

Richie
March 15, 2005

On the subject of swearing. It just isn't tolerated in the amateur leagues. I mean the Sat and Sun local leagues where you have to run the line (how I hated that) and orange segments, a fag and a sit down on the pitch is the half time ritual. Having watched the six nations, I really like it that you can hear what the ref is saying. I haven't got a clue about rugby rules but at least you can hear why he's made a decision. Would like to see this for the live games on Sky even as an experiment. Even do it so the live crowd can hear what's going on. Why shouldn't we know why the ref has made a decision? Sooner or later the swearing would be cut out if it was being wired for sound. That's the theory anyway.

clock end clive
March 15, 2005

Look out - there's a Jeremie about! Three goals from our forgotten young man in a 3-2 win over Chelski reserves plus Gilberto came through in one piece. The heart beats.

AmericanGooner
March 15, 2005

Something I didn't consider is that if its an Arsenal v. Man Yoo cup final then you go one place down for the UEFA cup bid from what I understand. Is that so? Curbishley was on on our only footie radio show discussing the league, etc. He also said he thought Chelsea was good for the league. Personally, it was the worst thing that happened to Liverpool and Newcastle. Both those clubs and Chelsea were fighting over 3rd and 4th before Roman came. Now that its a 3 club league, they have to fight over 1 spot.

old man of hoy
March 15, 2005

A serious point for once - most significant football event all year is referee Fisk retiring due to threats. This surely calls for all clubs and players to change their ways before the sport spirals downwards. It all starts with the players on the field - from the over-aggressive reactions to petty decisions on throw-ins, tackles and dives ; via the constant foul mouthed challenging that we have seen from the likes of Rooney or Smith; to the overt physical attacks of a Di Canio or a Prutton. All this can immediately end with stronger action by the clubs off the field. Boards must control their players and managers much better. If Chelsea had any pretence to greatness as a club they would publicly make it clear that Mourinho's recent behaviour has been wrong. Similarly the FA/Premiership should make foul mouthing an official an instant yellow card - no second chances - first time you swear or insult you get the card. Managers should also be included in this - how can it be right that some criticise the officials in their club programmes? Perhaps when a certain level of official abuse cards have been received points should be deducted or heavy fines imposed. This is not about taking the emotion out of the game because fans can continue to berate officials as they have always done and that is part of the theatre of football. The players and managers should operate on a higher level for the good of the game. Very old-fashioned all this but if rugby and cricket can do it why not football?

North Bank Mural
March 15, 2005

Richie, I remember Blockley vaguely and he was crap! Despite his cup goal I always thought Steve Morrow was extremely average. Fergiscum made howler with Massimo Taibe too, so poor in goal maybe AW will buy him!!

Clive
March 15, 2005

Bernard, in simple terms, the aim of football is to put the ball in your oppositions net more times than they put the ball in your net. Therefore, players that can put the ball in the net are highly valued for that very thing.... it's called scoring goals, dem's the rules. If you can score goals you are commonly known throughout football as a good striker and a useful attribute. If you are like Bentley and are a bit skillfull but can do **** all else, you are worthless. Geddit now? Jeez, you are painful mate. Cheers. Cheers all.

Gordon Strachan
Iamlooking4ajob.com
March 15, 2005

I'm afraid I can't get excited about the rest of the Champions League this season and I think a lot of neutrals will feel the same. The best four teams to watch were knocked out this week and there are too many negative sides left. Arsenal, Manchester United, Real Madrid and Barcelona all play to win and entertain and they're gone. If they were the semi-finalists you would say: "Fantastic, this should be exciting and beautiful to watch." But I think it will be more of a grind now.The philosophy of most top European teams is not to get beaten in the first instance. Then they have certain individuals with the ability to win them matches. It's the case with Chelsea, Milan, Juventus and Internazionale, who start their delayed second leg at home to Porto next week at 1-1. I watched extra-time of Juventus's win over Real Madrid and they're not a team where you turn on the television and say: "Brilliant, I love watching this lot." But they win all the time and that's the most important thing for the fans and financial backers. If Juventus against Milan was one of the ties it would probably go to penalties or finish 1-0. I saw those two in the final at Old Trafford two years ago and it was like pulling teeth, and Inter are no fun to watch either. Probably the most attacking team left are Lyon. They beat Werder Bremen 10-2 and have 27 goals in eight European games so far. Liverpool change their style for different matches but, to be fair to Rafael Benítez, they've had bad luck losing Djibril Cissé, and Fernando Morientes is cup-tied. I hope Chelsea and Liverpool do really well but it saddens me we'll not have the opportunity to watch Arsenal, United, Real and Barcelona in high-tempo big games again this season. They have huge support worldwide and it's because of their history, flamboyance and the way they play the game. They're great when they're flying. The fact is it's easier to defend than create. People will say you can win the European Cup by attacking because United did it in 1999 and Real have won it twice since then. But United have only been to one semi-final in six seasons and Real won in 2002 when their superstars were at their peak, especially Zinédine Zidane and Roberto Carlos. I saw them against Bayer Leverkusen in that final and Leverkusen were the better team, better organised, but Zidane pulled Real out of trouble with a wonder goal. The trouble is Real were living on borrowed time with those top players. They're past their sell-by date and you can see their problems now. I don't think Arsène Wenger will lose his commitment to attacking football at Arsenal but he has to ask whether it's time to jiggle things a bit by changing certain players or asking them to do different things. Arsenal have played the same way for a long time without getting anywhere in the European Cup and might have to change, at least now and then, to suit certain games. At the moment you always know how Arsenal will play: that Dennis Bergkamp will be deep, the areas Thierry Henry likes to get into, the job Patrick Vieira will do and the position Freddie Ljungberg will take up and so on. I'm not saying they should turn defensive but perhaps they could mix up their attacking. About 80% comes down their left and then they're defensively weak on that side without Sol Campbell because Ashley Cole bombs forward. Maybe they need a nicer balance with more coming down the right. They might also need a few crosses going into the box instead of playing to feet all the time. Defenders get in one mode of playing against Arsenal and know what's coming. At United, I'm sure Sir Alex Ferguson will be looking at where his team can improve. He's tried various things since 1999, including 4-4-1-1 and then a lot of 4-3-3 this season. I think he has enough young players to say they keep going and get better as a group. For the English teams still left, the main sides to avoid are Milan, who still have Andriy Shevchenko to come back, and Juventus. I suppose on the surface PSV Eindhoven would look to be the weakest team in the quarter-finals. You never know what's coming from Liverpool but I feel I'm really getting into the swing of punditry after tipping them to go out and United to go through and being totally wrong. How far Liverpool can go now will depend a lot on whether the top teams stay clear of injuries. Milan, Chelsea and Juventus are my favourites and will be hard to beat if they keep their players fit. Entertainment is another matter. I can't remember the last time a European Cup final really excited me and I'm not banking on this one being any different.

AmericanGooner
March 15, 2005

Should we list Veron as a 45 million pound flop? If you add up Man Yoo's 28 million pounds for him and Ranieri paying 17 million to let Fergie off the hook, then he has to be. **** OMOH, while I appreciate the offer and the sentiment, I can't consider anywhere that doesn't offer a view of AG from my bedroom window. p.s. the area you suggested isn't near Stoke is it? lol. **** Other than us, is there any club that has been rumored to be linked to SWP? If not, then we may be able to name our price...within reason of course...if they are no other takers. If he was not off to Brum and had not gotten himself in trouble, Pennant, some cash and the remainder structured like the Reyes deal, depending on appearances, personal and club goals met. **** If Reyes leaves, I hope he continues having a loose tongue and tells everyone about why he didn't make it with us. I would be especially interested in how he got on with Henry and the rest of the team.

Richie
March 15, 2005

On the subject of flops. Going back a bit here, but here goes. Jeff Blockley was brought in to replace McLintock and what a disaster area he was. Not sure how much but was a lot at the time, £200,000 I think. Single handedly screwed up our s/f v Sunderland '73. The rest is history as they say. Much more recently, Jeffers but was injury prone which didn't help matters. Other flops not involving Arsenal, back in time again. Steve Daley, Wolves to Man City for £1M plus, Kevin Reeves, Norwich to Man City, £1M plus. Ian Wallace, Coventry to Forest and Davenport and Birtles from Forest to MU. Veron to MU (as already mentioned) has got to be the biggest most expensive flop in recent times.

clock end clive
March 15, 2005

Where do you stop with a list of expensive flops - every team has them in their history!! How about Asprilla - when Kevin bought him The Toon were virtually assured of the title - after he arrived they lost their pattern and threw it all away, never to emerge as challengers again. Not sure i can ever remember one player having such a negative effect on a side over so short a period. The irony was that he didn't play badly - Kevin just fixed something that wasn't broke. Veron and Forlan rate pretty high on the gaffometer as did Flo at Sunderland.

North Bank Mural
March 15, 2005

By the way Blackburn is the plum but they will be desperate to win, we have to be in the right frame of mind for it. I really fancy NUFC to turn over Fergiscums mob.

North Bank Mural
March 15, 2005

Mickey Sloan - Talking flops, aside from expensive ones, measuring expectation against realisation, how about Peter Marinello and Charlie Nicholas? How about a new criteria entitled Crap buys in general: I will start with Jimmy Csrter, John Jensen, Chris Kiwomya and Vince Bartram.

old man of hoy
March 15, 2005

American Gooner - your spirit and eminent sense mark you out as plenty good enough to be a Londoner. On behalf of Bermondsey I therefore offer you freedom of my part of the city. There will be others on this forum who - like Abramovich - will try to entice you away to their preferred part of London - some will possibly dangle the carrot of Islington or Hackney in front of your nose. If you are very unlucky somebody may mention Tottenham. American - don't be fooled - you will never get a better offer than Bermondsey, the toughest, cutest, roughest, most historic location in the Metropolis. Unless you decline i shall proceed with all speed to make the necessary arrangements with the Town Clerk, Mr. Trousers O'Blimey. You will be notified of the time and place of the formal ceremony in due course. Until then, continue to enjoy your Americanhood and long may you sing the song of Arsenal.

goonerguru
March 15, 2005

Have just arrived back from the races,see we have drawn Blackburn in the cup,I hope we get through and I hope we play MU in the final because if there is one team in this world that we owe a defeat to it's them,to me it seems like a long time ago since we beat them and I think a win against them would dent their almighty ego and do ours the world of good.On another note I've noticed that Bristol has been made redundant and I dont care how much money he has from the pay-off he will be feeling pretty EEGed off at the moment,from someone who has been in that position I can assure him that there is life after that sort of setback and who knows it might turn out to be a blessing in disguise,keep your chin up mate.

old man of hoy
March 15, 2005

It was Einsstein who said - "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." Those who consider Le Boss to be in danger of losing his job please note. Mee - love it -making a link between Abramovich and David Jack scores highly on my humourometer - in some respects yours is a superjoke. In your honour i leave you with the following classic. When Albert Einstein was making the rounds of the speaker's circuit, he usually found himself eagerly longing to get back to his laboratory work. One night as they were driving to yet another rubber-chicken dinner, Einstein mentioned to his chauffeur (a man who somewhat resembled Einstein in looks & manner) that he was tired of speech making. "I have and idea, boss," his chauffeur said. "I've heard you give this speech so many times. I'll bet I could give it for you." Einstein laughed loudly and said, "Why not? Let's do it!" When they arrive at the dinner, Eistein donned the chauffeur's cap and jacket and sat in the back of the room. The chauffeur gave a beautiful rendition of Einstein's speech and even answered a few questions expertly. Then a supremely pompous professor ask an extremely esoteric question about anti-matter formation, digressing here and there to let everyone in the audience know that he was nobody's fool. Without missing a beat, the chauffeur fixed the professor with a steely stare and said, "Sir, the answer to that question is so simple that I will let my chauffeur, who is sitting in the back, answer it for me." ~~~

Thanks Pat Rice
March 15, 2005

Vicky actually according to my stop watch the statistics were: AFC 68.8, Bolton 16%, Air 15.2%. The Bolton figure included the time in their hands at throw ins.

AmericanGooner
March 15, 2005

Rich, I'm a big Yakubu fan and think he'll make a fine addition. He can partner with Henry and/or give Henry rest before big games and be the lead striker. He adds a few things we don't have and I've noted it before. Heading ability, ability to play with his back to the GK and chest down volleys and turn on defenders. Agree on Eissen and like van Bommel as well. If Reyes goes, I think we'll need someone for the left. Freddie likes the left so buying SWP would solve that in a way. I do however, like Quincy on the right and think he'll be more effective in that role. RvP can play wide left in a bind as well as Ash if Pires is out of form or injured. A good journeyman CB is in order I think until Senderos is ready. Someone who has 2-3 good years left.

Yorkshire
March 15, 2005

Looks certain we will be playing Saturday in semi's as Newcastle have to play in quarters of EUFA cup on Thursday before semi so won't be playing Saturday.

Rich
March 15, 2005

The point about a new GK for Arsenal is it takes a very different type of GK to play for the big clubs. Many GK's look good because they make lots of saves in a game and are constantly in action, but playing for us might mean doing nothing for 89 mins then pulling off a save when it's needed. It's a very different GK. I'm going to have to sign up to the Shay Given fan club, I think he would be great for us, plus with Newcastle not going to get in the Champions league again he could want out. I like the idea of taking a Keeper already in the Prem. Niemi would be cheaper and more readily available (pos relegation and a good replacement at Soton), but he's older and prob not as good, Cudicini is the other. I think that AW can spot a good GK, he just hasn't got one yet......he nearly had Dudek and Cech and they were and are the best GK in the prem. I say go for Given/Cudicini/Niemi in that order and get Proto (£625K release clause) or promote Stack or Taylor as No.2. Next Midfield - I think Essien is a great player but think he has now gone beyond our reach with his performances, all the big clubs in Italy and Spain are aware of him now and we can't afford to get in a bidding war transfer fee or wages. Van Bommel or Emre is a much more likely option. Seems like SWP might be available for £15m, and I'd go for him, there's been talk of Downing to cover left wing if Reyes goes, but I can't see it, I think Boro will want the standard ridiculous price for young English players and he's not worth more than £4-5m at the moment. Up-front I would like to see a player in the mould of Yakubu but better. Obefemi Martins at Inter would be great. He would fit AW's criteria for pace and technique but also add a phsyical presence and an aeiral threat. Anyway it seems as though the summer will be an exciting one so lets hope we get some real quality in.

Andy Green
March 15, 2005

Good Luck,Bristol Gooner.

AmericanGooner
March 15, 2005

Title or no, until Chelsea beat us consistently and have our derby record, we will always be the biggest club in London. Strangely enough I take pride in that fact even though not a Londoner.

AmericanGooner
March 15, 2005

Regarding Myles Palmer's article. Isn't the board considering making him a board member? Weren't they desperate to get his signature on a new contract? So, why would they change their opinion now? And, as often asked, if not Wenger then who? Its foolish to think about removing him without a couple names as replacement.

AmericanGooner
March 15, 2005

Regarding the public disclosure of Reyes' fee. Wasn't there rumors that the deal was bigger than the Beckham deal to RM at the time? I recall Sevilla saying something to that effect and bragging about how we were robbed. Was this why it was made public? Do dispel the rumors? **** JamesLT, wasn't Rost@Schalke immense v. Bayern Munich? You know what I'm thinking, don't you? One game does not a keeper make though. Must make a note to myself to keep an eye on him. **** Regarding goonerguru's comment. Other than actually working for a club or the FA or going to a town hall meeting about AG or live games, there isn't anything about being 'close to the action' that gives a local more info about the club or English football than someone who lives outside of the UK. All the papers are on the net. Public information can also be obtained. If the effort is made, as was noted, pretty much any information can be obtained. One actually gets to see more than UK residents in certain countries like America and parts of Asia. We get up to 4 PL games on Saturadays and as much as 3 on Sundays, and the top 3 clubs are almost always part of the games. Serie A, la Liga and Bundesliga and eredivisie can be seen depending on if you have cable tv in your home, go to a pub or have satelite TV. Point is access is avaialable if you have the money. Do agree that we all think we're the dog's about things Arsenal. All of us have some firmly held views about certain aspects of it that we believe as gospel. That's part of ever support of every club of every sport. I appreciate Nico's work and agree with his assesment of things. But also appreciate USMartin's comments, even if I disagree. I also seem to recall a thing about 'I scroll by our American friends posts'. Which is hard to do and comment whether or not USMartin is wrong or not. Which is it? **** Crescit, not since our boys were in Vietnam has anyone dominated with 31% posession. **** Truegunner, I was thinking Veron as well. Has to be the biggest waste.

DHD
March 15, 2005

Gilberto starts his first game tonight for the Reserves at Barnet - vs the Chavs. Should be interesting.

AmericanGooner
March 15, 2005

Who has gone down more, Arsenal or Man Yoo? 2 titles and 2 FA cups in 4 years. A new stadium being built that guarantees additional funds. A shedload of records in that interim on a smidgen of the money that ManYoo has spent. Man Yoo, first time they will go 2 consecutive years without a title. Finish outside the top 2 in the CL twice in the last 3 years, possibly this year as well. No quarter final 2 years on the trot in the CL after 7 consecutive quarters. The club unsettled by a persistent billionaire wanting control. Coolmore mafia fighting with the manager. But we're the club in crisis? We're going backwards? At the end of the day (or season) its what happens on the pitch. And in that regard, Man Yoo are sliding down at a torrid pace. Maybe I'm too far removed as goonerguru suggests to see that we're the ones in crisis and not Man Yoo. **** Cannon Balls, regarding how many players can Mourinho buy. You are right about his wanting to work with only so many at Chelsea but if Roman's feeder club scheme works, then he could buy good players, park them at Feyenoord, Depor, CSKA or Porto and then transfer any player off form and bring in a player from the feeder club in January or the summer.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 15, 2005

All the best in your job searching Bristol-hope to see you back here soon. Come on Arsenal.

Gaz ( B/wood )
March 15, 2005

I've got a question for you all: Which supposedly massive English Club are playing at home tomorrow, yet a day before still haven't sold out of tickets? Indeed, if you go to their web-site they are selling them to anyone who wants them, at four per-person!?! Chelscum-big Club? My arse!!!Never have been never will be. Whatever happens in the next few years everyone knows the biggest Club in London is Arsenal, and no amount of money will ever change that. Come on Arsenal.

Bernard
March 15, 2005

Bristol, sorry to hear that - good luck in finding something else quickly.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 15, 2005

For all of those who enjoyed my recent posts the cheques are on their way!!! Brett-I would be quite happy with Niemi although his age (33) puts me off a little. Infact I prefer his team mate (Paul Smith) who looks a quality keeper, and has age on his side. What I'm hoping for though is thatwhatever we do in the summer we make getting a new no 1, whatever the cost, an absolute priority, and if that means spending more than we want to then so be it. Therefore the keeper in this country I would like to see us sign would be Shay Given. He's a top quality international right in his prime and I would try and get him at any cost. If it means bidding over 10M then I would do it. We simply cant afford to get this one wrong again so lets go for the best, and I don't see many keepers better than him at present. Come on Arsenal.

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

i have come to the conclusion Phil that your not only a pathetic prat and a piss artist but your also obviously thck as pig shite. I am just off out for the night to spend some of my winnings that i got backing Newcastle to beat Spuds, how i laughed when that goal was disallowed at the end !. Newcastle had a nailed on penalty not given and a good goal disallowed,and your complainng ,you prat leave it out, you were beaten by a better team that had had a hard mid-week game in Europe, being a Spud of course you only watch other teams play there. And all this about Given saving the Toon,the truth is Defoe and Keane are just average players,like the whole Spuds side.Anyway a slap-up meal with wine is awaiting. It's a hard life, but someones got to live it!.Bye dont get too angry now peeps,the year ends in one in another Five !. Spuds not Chelsea will have been relegated by then !!

Mee
March 15, 2005

ECFS: There are some disturbing truths in your post, namely that Chelsea will be able to afford to buy the finest players available and keep them happy on outrageous salaries. Unless Abramovich can re-define the rules that state that each team be represented by eleven players only, then ultimately Chelsea will have the task of keeping 22 of the worlds best players plus substitutes happy with a rotational system. If Chelsea continue to add players in the summer in a bid to improve still further their squad, then some existing players will have to get used to a life on the bench. Players like Parker, Kezman, Johnson and even Cole (If Adriano and Kaka arrive) will surely imitate Michael Owen at Real and agitate for a first team spot. Given the wages that Chelsea are able pay, some mercenaries will be content to do that, but others hoping to impress their national coaches will never be happy unless selected for the first team. Nevertheless it is a fairly bleak picture started by Arsenal, among others paying £2,500 for David Jack from Bolton in 1929.

steve martin
March 15, 2005

So it's Blackburn in the Semi's... Oh! I see we have them at Ewood Park this weekend, look out lads another kicking coming your way... Still maybe all their players might have one eye on the Semi's and leave us alone for an easy win...

Matthew Wade
March 15, 2005

Juliano - Lentini was nearer 15 million as baggio from fiorentina was the record set at £9m...he was a flop, but more due to his car accident than anything ...he missed a year or so...and never fully recovered. in terms of flopping for footballing reasons, Veron and crespo immediate spring to mind...

Joshua
March 15, 2005

It's harsh calling Lentini a flop considering he was involved in a major car accident not long after signing, for £13 million. He didn't play in the 1994 Champions League final.

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

Im going to have a bet that chelsea will get relegated once Abramovich leaves.The sooner the better.They were in the gutter financially before he arrived and they will end up back in the sewers again.With MG taking over the drunken jocks the future looks bright for arsenal.UP UP AND AWAY.

Juliano
March 15, 2005

Mickey Sloan-Gianluigi "gigi" Lentini wasn't a total flop. he certainly didn't live up to his transfer fee, but I think he was a regular for a couple of years with AC Milan, he even won the 1994 Champions League final against Barcelona me think. And yes, it was the highest fee at the time, but nowhere near what we know today. It was probably around £9Mils if I can remember well. If the amount is involved, then Anelka to Real Madrid has to be the worst transfer of all times. £23Mils for a couple of first team appearances and a departure for half that price one year later... also, as mentionned, Veron for £28Mils was quite a coup.

steve martin
March 15, 2005

Last week going into the Sheff Utd match at Bramell Lane, our season was on the verge of collapse, the media were lovin it, they all had their post mortems at the ready, now they have had to fill their bins with the rubbish they were ready to write... Arsneals season goes on, more than likely to the end of the season with a cup final... Who knows if the powers that be really have those two things that hang between your legs, Chelsea might even get deducted points and the Leagues thrown open and we could just nick it, I'd love it...

steve martin
March 15, 2005

A message to James Lawton, that famous Journalist from tne Independant... Arsenal, 25th FA Cup Semi Final (a record) the 5th season running we have reached the Semi Finals, 6th in the last seven years... Played in 16 Cup Finals... Does that look like a club that does not take the FA Cup seriously, you blind, demented fool...

Truegooner
March 15, 2005

Mickey Sloan-what about Veron to Manu 28 million quid that one!!!!!!

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

You need to do some serious buisness too 'sliced bread' like seeing a xxxxing shrink you stupid moronic prat.

Decaf
March 15, 2005

"... (throw in the possible decline)." I meant of Vieira. Could it be an omen that his name disappeared?

Decaf
March 15, 2005

Methinks Mr Palmer has grown too fond of his own style not to mention his own story. Nonsense. Even Choco-doo doesn't think that is that simple. a) we don't only have 'one player who gets into the box'; b) our style is not 'rumbled', and we we could easily have won the blasted E*Ging thing last year. It not our style, its our substance, whatever that means. A modicum of US Martinism is healthy, but Mr Palmer is surely overdosing.

Fred
March 15, 2005

It looks to me like Arsenal and Real will be doing some serious business together this close season with Pat V, Reyes, Owen and Beckham being mentioned more and more!

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

ECFS,just how many players can Chelsea buy and keep on buying?. Mourinho says that he likes to work with a squad of 24 players, the present ones are on the whole on longish contracts and high wages,which they will not get else where,so none will leave unless they are guaranteed the same terms elsewhere. Mourinho can only play 11 players and use three subs like anyone else, we will be back next season to take them on and we have always had less money and a smaller squad traditionally than our main rivals anyway. Fergusons always outspent us and had a stronger Squad, our first eleven is a match if not better than Chelseas, they have a bigger strength in depth after that. But again next season we will be stronger in that area too; Terry is on a mission for Chelsea this season and he like in the Barca game is a big factor in motivating his side, we have lacked that sort of inspiration from anyone eg. against Munich in the CL, and in the game at home against Manure. Wenger always bounces back the next season after a setback, and i am backing him to do so again, i have not given up on us winning sonmething this season either. When i look at Suds and all the money that they have spent and never won anything, and now their manager is off disillusioned at the lane that time forgot,i am just pleased that we have Wenger and our board and players like Henry at the club,top scorer in the league again too.

Decaf
March 15, 2005

ECFS, I hope you are right about Henry. Pires is perhaps fading, Bergkamp is surely in his last season, and Cole is potentially off to where the grass is greener (throw in the possible decline). TH might suddenly find that the players who have helped him to be so good are suddenly disappearing. Don't get me wrong, TH is a brilliant player, but as we have seen this season and in his performances for France, he is human if he doesn't get the right sort of support. The players I mention have an almost uncanny understanding with TH, which is the basis of our attacking sucess TH's talent being maximised at Arsenal. He'd have to face the prospect of learning combinations with a whole new set of players who may not turn out to be so good. So lets hope he is loyal, 'cos it might be a lot easier and more lucrative to learn to fit at Barca or Chelsea. I'm optimistic as ever.

Myles Palmer
March 15, 2005

_________________________________________________KEEGAN resigned as Man City manager on Friday and I thought that might reduce the Arsenal post-mortems in the Sunday papers.No such luck.Haven't read all of them, just Ian Ridley, who knows what he is talking about.A re-vamp will be a big theme now. The Wenger re-vamp will be a big topic till July.What will the manager do? Who will he sell?Who will he buy?I'm more interested in a bigger question : Will Arsene re-examine his ideas? Will he adapt his ideas? Will he get Steve Bould to drill the defence? Will he always be obsessed by pace and attacking at pace and creating one kind of goal, the one-on-one-with-the-keeper goal? Will he sign a striker who wants to play in the box?At present, only Freddie wants to play in the box.That is because Arsene's style is so specific, so specialised, so rarified, that he only wants his goalscorer in the box for a split-second, just before scoring the goal.In a team that only attacks and creates on the left, Freddie runs in from the right. It's unique style, it's won six trophies, but it's been rumbled now and it will not win the European Cup anytime in the next 50 years.That has been obvious since March 12, 2002, when Deportivo won 2-0 at Highbury and the game was over in 30 minutes.That has been abundantly clear. It has been written on the wall of the stadium in 20 foot neon letters since March 2002.So the $64,000 question now isn't : Who will he buy ?It is : can he ignore the elephant in the room? Can he ignore the elephant in the room for a fourth year in a row ?For the last three years I have looked for signs that Arsene is changing his ideas. I haven't seen any.By his own admission, Arsene is a stubborn man.WE KNOW THAT football is a game of running, but for Arsene it is a game of sprinting. I heard that he turned down the two Forest boys, Dawson and Reid, who went to Spurs, because neither has explosive pace.Fair enough, but does John Terry have explosive pace ?Arsene might re-vamp his team while keeping the same ideas. He could sign players who fit his existing style of play. He could sign players who do the same things better.That is what he did when he had to choose between Reyes and Jermain Defoe and chose Reyes.THE OBSERVER headline on Ian Ridley's piece is: Is Wenger the man to rebuild Arsenal? Ridley writes : "Belts have been tightened during several years of financing the £350m Emirates Stadium. Now the board have indicated that there will be a war chest this summer, possibly containing £40m. Before they hand it to Wenger, they could well go through a bout of soul-searching. "Arsenal do not like sacking managers, having had only 11 in 60 years. It sounds astonishing that they might even think beyond Wenger after nine seasons of unprecedented domestic success, which have brought three titles and three FA Cups, including two Doubles. This year, for the first time under Wenger, they might finish below the top two." He says that AW finds himself in a similar situation to where Sir Alex was eight years ago. The Cantona team was past its best, so Fergie rebuilt and won the treble in 1999.PERSONALLY, I think the French players are far too powerful at Arsenal.And Arsene pampers his players too much. Indeed, he is in awe of them. He only shouts at them twice a year.Lippi got to three European Cup Finals with Juventus, losing two. One of Lippi's best lines was, "Every summer I sell two or three millionaires, just to keep the others interested."Arsene would never say that.He'd say : I want Ashley to stay at Arsenal and become captain of the club one day.Arsene believes in stability, harmony and continuity. He thinks that if you change more than three players in a summer you take a technical risk.Ian Ridley never mentions the "comfort zone" . But he writes, "The feeling is that it has become too cosy within the club. Certain players are assured of their role, too fond of the manager and his benevolent, paternal treatment. At times Wenger appears too passive off the field and in making changes on it. Feathers have not been, but need to be, ruffled. If the board aren't thinking the unthinkable, Wenger himself should be over the next few months."Landmark piece, make sure you read it.

Bristol Gooner
March 15, 2005

Well, good result at the weekend and an even better draw at lunchtime. Assuming we get there I hope we face Newcastle in the Final as at least if we didn't win it the sight of a load of Geordies celebrating their first trophy in technicolour won't be half as painful. Anyway, unfortunately I've been made redundant so appearances on here will be few and far between until I get broadband installed at home. I know I'll be sorely missed but I'm sure the forum will struggle on without me for a while! Ta ta for now. PTBAG

Mickey Sloan
March 15, 2005

Guys having a discussion in the office. The question was brought up when we were talking about Lentini years ago and his unbelievable(at the time) transfer fee. Anyway, who do you think is/was the most expensive 'flop' ever? Some examples:- Sutton,Anelka to Real,Lentini, maybe shearer and certainly Woodgate so far...

ECFS
March 15, 2005

Some may well accuse me of taking the Ashley Cole stories particularly badly, but I can't help drawing wider conclusions from them... Here we have a situation where a still-young, still learning left back (for goodness sake!) is unhappy with earning a £40,000 or even £55,000 weekly basic salary (not including bonuses and endorsements, let's remember) at a successful club he has been affiliated with since his childhood. Thanks to a few relatively simple machinations from an agent whose very fee structure effectively ensures he is contractually obliged to seek money-spinning transfers for his client and a club that is simply impervious to financial sanctions from the authorities, it is almost certain he will leave Arsenal this summer.That can't be right. And it seems Gooners preoccupied with what Ashley himself wants or feels are missing the point somewhat - it doesn't actually seem to matter!As fans, does it now mean that - unless we support Chelsea, in which case it doesn't matter because Chelsea can and will buy the best every season - we can never ever believe in an individual player and his loyalty again? First "Once a Blue..." Rooney, now Ashley "Junior Gunners" Cole...The combination of agents earning a big payday everytime their client moves club and someone like Abramovich being able to buy whoever he wants for whatever sum he wants with zero fear of any fines for wrongdoing does seem to mean exactly that to me.Freaks like Thierry who seem to want to stay with Arsenal against all obvious financial and silverware-prospects logic are surely going to be a rarer and rarer commodity? Who could really blame him for wanting to leave? I couldn't, far less than Ashley that's for sure...It also places Arsenal in an impossible situation. We either atrophy at Highbury and become another Everton - a great club with a fading if beautifully traditional stadium that is effectively a feeder for the big-boys or we almost bankrupt ourselves in an ultimately futile bid to keep pace with Chelski, losing all semblance of class and stability along the way and converting ourselves from a "club" to a (not particularly convincing) "brand" where prices, seating allocations and the entire "matchday experience" reflect the superior importance of television, corporate matchday attendance and the American and Asian markets at the expense (literally and figuratively) of the traditional supporter.Can anyone seriously tell me I'm wrong?

Welsh Gooner
March 15, 2005

it's Blackburn guys!!! see you lot at Cardiff next month! Come on you Gunners!!

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

Aaa!Bisto,up yours you drunken twat, your a pathetic liar, so you just reappear like that eh, pull the other one you brainless moron. Mr Itchy fingers on the keyboard incarnate, you can't stop posting anymore than you can stop getting pissed on a friday afternoon you twat.

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

Bret,well it's Shearers last season blah,blah,blah, and i fancied us to get to the final,seeing as how the year never ended in one!, and other factors more realistically relevant, like the FA Cup is the only thing that we can realistically win. So that now the powers that be decided to pit Shearer against the drunken jock it looks ominnious for him, Pole will be the man in black and send off a Manure playerafter 10 minutes, which is not lets face itis not hard to visualise, mad Rooney 'effin'n blindin' could go in any game that i have seen him in since going to the prima donna's of OT. Yes the drunken jocks last season is doomed possibly to failure,that is a distinct possibility.

Phil the Gooner
March 15, 2005

Cannon bollocks.Ive stopped posting on here because you are a sick pervert.Ive had to re post to set the record straight that i dont use your pathetic handle and because you keep refering to me in most of your posts.Read your posts and then you ll realise how pathetic you appear.

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

MEA,i never posted that it was from our resident Spud the alcholic anoymous poster the artist formerly known as PTG(sic). He posts his ludicrous rants poor old pissed deluded sot under the misaprehension that they are amusing, and possess the sarcastic wit of an Oscar Wilde, alas they are not funny, and people take them to be real!.Which of course defeats the object, but poor old Phil The sad Spud fails to grasp that point due to his befuddled alcoholic riddled brain.

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

MEA.There was a change of plan.On our current form the FA decided manure had more chance of beating newcastle than we had.They just wanted us to meet the drunken jocks in the final.

ezzy
March 15, 2005

Wateva Tom Your a loser

Mee
March 15, 2005

David .d/True Gooner: Your semi final exhortations were taken straight from the Neil kinnock Sheffield pre election defeat rally - Well, alriiiiiiiiiiight!!Did anyone notice that on BBC TV after Arsenal (3) had been drawn out of the bowl and Brooking drew the next ball, it was possible, as he removed his hand, to see that ball (2) Man U remained in the bowl, after that everything was alriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 15, 2005

I heard mentioned twice yesterday, don't know if correct as I have not checked, our win against the s**tkickers and subsequent progress to a 5th succesive semi final equals a record set by the Busbys mancs in the 60's. I wonder if they ever picked weakened teams in their run.

Tom Dean
www.toMdean@esinet.org.co.uk
March 15, 2005

your out of the f.a cup up the Blackburn!!!!!!!!CHELSEA RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brett
March 15, 2005

Cannon Balls - I like your suggestion of meeting Newcastle in the final. In fact it could happen, you know!

Tom Dean
www.todean@esinet.org.co.uk
March 15, 2005

your out of the f.a cup up the Blackburn!!!!!!!!

MEA
March 15, 2005

Cannon Balls - May I remind you of what you (or the person pretending to be you) wrote earlier 'a friend of mine who is associated with theFA in soho square has told me that the final will be fixed for us against the drunken jocks to give the FAC much needed publicity.weare drawn with newcastle in the semis.'

Vicky C Crescit
March 15, 2005

I don't know if anyone noticed this but the report on our game with the Bolton Barbarians on the Sky website said this (and I quote verbatim): "Bolton showed their lion spirit in dominating possession throughout.........." At the bottom of the same article they gave the Opta stats, which showed: Possession - Arsenal 68.8% Bolton 31.2%. Hands up anyone who has seen a team dominate possession with only 31.2% !!

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

Clive, nah!, Blackburn?, we are entitled to feel confident, its not a question of doing a Spuds and taking them for granted, but lets face it, they are the ones we wanted, if you know what i mean. Even Phil the Spuds excited trying to get in on the act by pretending to be me!, again, he is jealous of my soberity though, Phil is a piss artist and does not like Camels or anyone else who can go a week without having a drink.

GARY
March 15, 2005

So,we're all happy with the draw then?

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

Phil your gutted sick as the pig that you are. Born Spud loser,even had yoyu had beaten Newcastle you would have got United anyway twat face.

clock end clive
March 15, 2005

Oh Cannon Balls when will you ever learn? Pride before a fall old son? My comfort is knowing that unlike you Arsene and his team will certainly not be taking things for granted. Makes this weekends clash all the more spicy -beware the nasty tackles.

Truegooner
March 15, 2005

Blackburn alright!!!

david.d
March 15, 2005

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!! BLACKBURN.....LOVE IT!!!!

puzzled
March 15, 2005

Blackburn, yessssssss!!

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

So it looks like us v Newcastle in the final then!.

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

Its blackburn.here we go here go.

Cup
March 15, 2005

Drawn BR

James - Copenhagen
March 15, 2005

Good luck Goonerguru (try Macs Joy), regarding the draw I can just see Newcastle getting to the final and then it is open season on Fleet St. 50 years since Chelsea won the Championship, 50 years since United won the FA Cup...

N5er
March 15, 2005

Sorry can't help Nico, thought Dein and the board handled the players salaries and contracts but might be wrong! BTW do you or Yorkshire know the breakdown figures of season ticket holders etc. for the new stadium? I believed it was 150 exec boxes at between 10 and 15 person a box = 1750/1800 and either 6700 or 6750 club level seats, totals about 8500. Then I've heard 38500 'ordinary STs' leaving 13000 to be split between away fans and pay as we plays! Can anyone help?

Cannon Balls
March 15, 2005

DHD, well this is the last season that Cardiff will hold the finals,not much concsolation now though. Next season it will be the new Wembley that is to have the honour, after getting to all of these ones at Cardiff, knowing us we will probably go five years without reaching another when they are held local!.

Niall
March 15, 2005

Rafael Van Der Vaart linked today on Arsenal World to us, Man U and Liverpool.

DHD
March 14, 2005

So it’s Cardiff again and once more I'm in awe at the lack of consideration for the poor wretches who actually go to matches; in this sense, I'm also conscious of our northern opponents, whomever they may be. It looks as though the options will be 5.15 on the Saturday or 4.00 on the Sunday. 12.15 in Bolton was bad enough (though Preston on a Monday night was the worst in recent years). Amongst those who’ve been regularly over the past few years, how many are really looking forward to another Cardiff experience? Sorry if that sounds a tad churlish and ungratefu; I know there are plenty who’d jump at the chance, but it really is a pain of a trip. It's not the city as such - good pubs and a pretty good atmosphere - it's the logistics. There may be trains (probably not) but essentially you have to drive; 4-6 hours each way, typically. Call me idealistic but I believe we ought to be able to get to any match and back by public transport on the same day; I'd add 'at a reasonable price' but I ain't that stoopid. We're supposed to be moving towards a sustainable transport policy but who'd have thought it? I also have a long-standing gripe about the FA's pricing policy for the Millennium stadium. It's pretty much a lottery what sort of seat you get. I once paid top price (£70 at the time) to sit low down by the corner post 15m behind the goal line down. I shouldn't moan should I. At least we'll have the M4 to ourselves - unless we play the ‘mancs’ of course.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Phil,i realize that you Spuds have nothing much football wise as usual to do at this time of season at the lane that time forgot. Apart from that is to speculate on who your next manager will be. However you keep coming on here doing the same old tired (like yourself) routine. You did that Cannon Balls one last night,so your so clever then,Spuds were going to beat Newcastle then Aresenal in the FA Cup Semi, then at Highbury in the league!, those were your predictions, your so clever that you can't even post under your own names but do it under other peoples, not clever really, and not funny,your just a sad pathetic prat Spud born loser. And a piss artist to boot, the pubs are open now should you not be down the Four Horseman getting pissed again, what interest is the FA Cup draw to you anyway?, unless of course your back supporting the drunken jock again, you sad little muppet.

Nico
March 14, 2005

goonerguru, Bernard, thank you for your kind responses. N5er, thank you too for your help; are you by any chance able to shed some light on the Club's division of responsibilities as between Wenger and the board with respect to player transfers and wages? My personal view (before I go checking elsewhere) is that Wenger is sufficiently educated, experienced and professional and has spent enough time gaining everyone's trust at the Club to be the man with prime responsibility for the entire area of playing staff, and not only the domain of coaching/team selection/nomination of players wanted for purchase, etc (though he may have started off confined to this more limited scope in the wake of the GG scandal), including salaries, bonus system and transfers in and out. It would not make sense to me otherwise.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Anyone know who we have been drawn against yet ? I was told last night it would be newcastle.We owe the drunken jocks and fatboy Rooney a pasting and what better time than the FAC final.

Darren
March 14, 2005

Nu boy - excellent post. I think all of us believe that changes are required. It looks a certainty that Reyes is on his bike in the summer unless there is a major change of heart from the boy but his family are deeply unsettled here and his girlfriend has gone back to Spain. It's funny, as today I actually feel positive about all this seasons shenanigans. Without it we wouldn't have seen the emergence of some truly sparkling young players, Senderos being the latest, a player I had almost given up on. He still has plenty to learn but looks a cracking prospect. With some shrewd buying and selling we will be back. This squad has clearly gone as far as it can so two or three exits are necessary to re-invigorate. I read on ANR that Marcello Lippi would sell a couple of"millionaires" each close season to ensure those who remained stayed focussed. I think Arsenes' strength of loyalty has been his weakness this term. The way this AC3 business has been washed in public is a disgrace and I think AW was wholy right to drop him, cos I don't believe this hamstring tale. However, whatever we do or don't achieve this season, the facts have been clearer than at any time over the last eight years...some real change is needed and I'm actually not at all tentative or nervous at the thought of some departures in the summer.

Mickey Sloan
March 14, 2005

I love the romance of the FA cup as much as the next man but there is only so much that you can take. The semi's should be rigged. The final last year was a disgrace as the real final was between us and Man u at Villa Park. Come on lets draw Blackburn and meet the Mancs in the final, where we will win 10-0

goonerguru
March 14, 2005

James,I'm off to Stratford races in about an hour its quite a big meeting for us,a lot of the Irish that come over for Cheltenham stop in this area before the festival and go to Stratford on the Monday,the word around here for a week or two now is Hardy Eustace is the one to be on.

Mourinho the enemy of football.
March 14, 2005

Jose Mourinho is an enemy of football,we can not accept his behaviour in whipping up hatred of match officials. Says Volker Roth a top UEFA official. We can not have people like Mourinho whipping up the masses in to a hatred of a referee. Top Danish ref Kim Nielsen who sent off Beckham in the World Cup in 1998 said thatwhat Mourinho is doing is very dangerous for referees and could like in the case of the linesman influence him into changing his mind after first flagging for a foul on the goalkeeper when Chelsea scored the winner in the Barcalona game,through a fear factor of what might follow. This obviously needs no pointing out what the dangers to the game are if this type of behaviour were to be copied by others, anachy could run rife and who knows where it will end. The authorities need to take strong action against Chelsea to put a stop to their practices, which are becoming increasingly gangster like, and of great concern throughout football.

James - Copenhagen
March 14, 2005

Cheltenham: Justified, War of Attrition and Hardy Eustace

GunGun
March 14, 2005

Uefa`s Voker Roth has called Mourinho the enemy of the game. I think that is an incredible thing to say. Maybe Roth should look at some of the things his countryman Beckenbauer has said over the years to intimidate referees.Why should managers not be allowed to say anything about the ref? It is like censorship. I do not like Uefas totaliatrian behaviour. Don`t critisize or we will do away with you. The FA sometimes acts along the same lines, as Arsene knows. Let the truth be said I say.Let people voice their opininions,Uefa.

Joshua
March 14, 2005

I was watching a SKY programme on 'The Premiership's Greatest Goals' the other day. What a stupid programme. Bergkamp's goal against Newcastle FOURTH? The most unique goal in English Football History, was fourth. Also Ian Wright didn't feature. Now how his amazing goal against Everton at Highbury (lobbed the ball over the same player twice and then lobbed Southall from about 10 yards) didn't feature I will never know, especially considering an average chip by Cantona was 9th. Or his amazing 35 yard lob against Swindon.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Naill,i do agree with you about Given though and he is worth looking at, we may see more of him soon anyway, if drawing the bar-codes in the semi-final.

david.d
March 14, 2005

gaz: your last 2 long posts have been excellent and some very good points made, its wierd how we as fans think alike on certain issues.....as for today please PLEASE let us draw blackburn. i just dont fancy drawing man utd again in a semi final for the second year running. in the last 3 big meetings beween us(fa semi and 2 league games this season)they have beaten us when it mattered. we now need to step up and show them that we can take them and beat them but not until the final please. newcastle would be acceptable but it wouldnt be easy but i think we would just edge it. will we get blackburn? probably not!! but it would be nice to see newcastle and utd battle it out. in all honesty we shouldnt fear anyone but im sure all gooners would want blackburn.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Nial,i thought that 'Big Jack' was English, as were most of the cloggers that he recruited into his band of green shirted mercenaries. My post however was nothing to do with anti-Irish, the old paronia at work again there?, but was aimed at pointing out how biased the media can be in this country, something that you and other Irish supporters are always harping on about yourselves.

goonerguru
March 14, 2005

Nico,as usual yout posts are well constructed and well thought out and a lot of this is due to the fact that you spend the time and effort to actually know what you are talking about,unlike USM who I feel just shoots from the hip because of what he may well have read or heard.If has his name suggests and he lives in America then it is not his fault that he lives so far away from the action and I welcome him into the Gooner family(the more the merrier)but because of his location I am suprised he is like a dog with a bone on this subject(nothing wrong with having an opinion)and he wont let go,even though he has been repeatedly shown to be in the wrong.Our love of Arsenal is the only thing we all have in common with each other and I guess each one of us thinks we are the dogs boll**** in that department but the fact is some are just a bit more committed than others.

Niall
March 14, 2005

After watching the Newcastle game yesterday, I'm even more convinced Given is the man we need to pursue for nets next season. Given is arguably competing with Peter Cech for the best goalkeeper in the Premiership. Obviously I've seen a lot of him and he is ultra reliable (you can name the mistakes on one hand), an excellent shot stopper and good on crosses considering he isn't the tallest goalkeeper around. A few months ago he was releasing a few comments which indicated he was unhappy at Newcastle and if there was any sign he would leave we should get in there quick. Otherwise he'll be off to Manchester United as I think Ferguson tried to get him when he was younger but Shay didn't want to play second fiddle to Schmeichel - which is fair enough. BTW CannonBalls, talking of Big Jacks side reminded me that under Graham Taylor, England didn't play much football either, so give your blatant anti-Irishness a rest.

Azinoz
March 14, 2005

Maybe Fred is getting the semi final procedure confused because his team haven't featured in too many recently.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Manure is an example of that old adage keep your cards close to your chest. You will never win a game of poker if your opponent knows what cards your holding. Last year Manure revealed that red-nose had 30m to buy players with ,however that Ferguson stated that he would not be buying Rooney for that amount because he was not worth it. Then Bobby Robson at Newcastle got in on the act and offered Everton 20m for the wonder boy. The drunken jock was thrown into one of his well known panics, 22m he slured, sorry no chance said Everton we want that 30m jock take it or leave it. So boxed into a corner by the cunning old Sir Bobby, Sir Alex was forced to stump up the 3Om for a player that he rated well below that. This was the result of bad tactics on the part of the Manure director Gill by revealing how much money they had available for buying players. This situation came about in part to try and prevent the drunken jock from diverting millions of pounds of the clubs money into his son Jasons bank-account by various methods, instead it diverted it into Evertons! . Dein is known to have a pathological hatred of football agents and is at the present time involved in trying through Uefa to curb their activities. He is even said to make them swear an oath on the Bible that they will not renegade on deals!. So i would expect that our transfer dealings to be conducted under a cloud of secretcy and misinformation, but also that it is being done in the best interests of the club. Of course there is the danger of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing scenario, so obviously that is a concern, but it's something also that can be resolved. But a lesson that Manure should learn and we should remember is that a lot of people become pessimists through financing optimists. Ask Spuds season ticket holders about it. And soon Glazer and sons will descend upon on OT like a posse of court bailifs intent on assett stripping every penny they can get from it. Talk about look on the bright side of life..

JamesLT
March 14, 2005

GAZ: Excellent post and, by the way, Van Bommel is available on a Bosman free this summer. I hope he joins usif Edu leaves as, despite being slow, he is exactly what we need. A brilliant short or long passer, a real playmaker who controls the flow of the game. He's also one of Europe's best free kick and corner takers. He's also a natural leader and a has a real nasty streak... As I said, Vam Bommel's one weakness is that he is slow, which is probably why no bigger club has snapped him up. If he had a Gerrard or Essien next to him to do the running that wouldn't be a problem. An older player like Van Bommel, who must be about 29, would also take the burden off Fabregas without blocking his path to a regular spot in the first team in a couple of years when he is stronger. ... ... ... US MARTIN: Are you serious??? Edelman is supposed to make a public statement saying that Wenger has GBP 40m to spend??? Very clever, every player would sudddenly cost us double their true value, the same as when Chelsea try t buy players... Much better to plead poverty and then suddenly pounce for the right player. That's the Arsenal style.

Bernard
March 14, 2005

Nico, no need to apologise as far as I can see.

N5er
March 14, 2005

Nico, I seem to remember that a more detailed disclosure than usual was released because the Seville President was bragging in the press about what a great deal he got for Reyes, suggesting the fee was higher than what Beckham was worth! As for the fee, you are correct the total amount would have been written off in the accounts. This is firstly correct accounting practice and secondly if nothing else it reduces tax payable!

Nico
March 14, 2005

Edelman and others are entitled to feel exasperated, USM, by the quality of some of the press and comments they've been getting. And your idea of a better statement than the one he gave is absolutely ludicrous. To tell the world you've got £40m or anything to spend in the summer, and watch prices and player demands spiral out of control? And to add that you are giving this to Wenger to ensure he builds the best ever team? What if the notoriously tight and picky Mr Wenger can't find the players to spend it on, and what if we flop next season as well? Unbelievably poor management ideeas on top of all the gripe. Sorry, mate, but I can't go on talking with you about this. Your conspiracy theories and your beefs with the Arsenal board are gratuitous and over the top. What's more you seem to need to keep clinging on to them like a disease you don't want rid of. You enjoy them and I find that creepy. Considering they've done as much as anyone to get us to where we are, why don't you go find another club to support with a better board than this? You know why? Cos there are none; absolutely none, and you, like most people who have the good fortune to support Arsenal, are so lucky, you don't even know how much, and you probably don't even think about it. [I know I'll regret this loss of cool later so I apologise in advance to you and the rest of the forum.]

US Martin
March 14, 2005

Nico, what you miss is that we are beyond the point of whether they had the money or not, or were willing to provide the money or not - the window is now closed, and this season is going on towards its conclusion. You seem to suggest that it is somehow okay to scapegoat, intentionally or otherwise, an lower employee rather than face scrutiny for (upper) management policies and decisions. Keith Edelman gets paid to make the tough decisons on finances - can we agree on that much? Does not the responsibility for the consequences for those decisons fall to him then? Why should he tire of the criticism? Doesn't it come with his job? The crux of all this now is even with recent articles quoting Wenger and Henry seemingly denying the Board denied them money, there are still quotes from them in those pieces suggesting otherwise, which as I say is moot now. The idea though that there might be conflict between Wenger and the top players and Board members rising out of these comments is what is pertinent. Clearly at this point Wenger is trying to tow the party line but still chafing just a bit about it now. As to my questions for Mr. Edelman - there is only one "Why not simply make a happy announcement to the effect of "the Board at Arsenal FC is delighted to report that we have made forty million pounds availbale this summer for Arsene Wenger to use exclusively for team-building to help us reach the next level in European Football and to build what we believe will be the best Arsenal team ever...", instead of making a statement that clearly could be viewed as a criticism of Arsene Wenger and worse an unwarranted one?" In fact I don't believe you ever answered my question about why he or others couldn't have made such a statement when it would have had the same positive effect on ticket sales and the statement apparently was intended to. Maybe I missed it, but I'd be curious to see that such an answer...

Nico
March 14, 2005

Azinoz, Bernard, thanks. USM, I don't doubt there are good ulterior motives for official statements being made by anyone, but your idea that the board is scapegoating Wenger with any of these is as wrong as the board's profit motive being behind non-purchases as, in turn, your idea that the board should put its personal money on the line if the Club doesn't have enough as, in turn, your lack of factual knowledge when it comes to not knowing whether they have or haven't put up extra private funds or how much. One thing many people think is that the board needs to find ways of maintaining AG ticket sales momentum. Bit, in addition, if you had had the time, energy and courage to send some of your own recent remarks to Mr Edelman instead of continuously labouring them on here (even one of your more academic, and less conspiracy oriented, seeming ones like, simply, 'why isn't Arsene being given the money to buy? You said transfer funds were available, yet he says or acts as if they are not'), I'd wager you'd be met with a swift and quite angry reply....unless he's tired of writing to every Tom, Dick, Nico and Martin, in which case you might find yourself being ignored, God forbid. If there is a conspiracy theory to spout (other than ticket sales momentum for AG and indeed for the last season at Highbury), it may simply be that they've had enough of receiving letters and press comment accusing them of being stingy and speaking out of both corners of their mouths, on the one hand publicly saying they back Arsene, and on the other privately refusing to do so (as you and others think, or thought, cos hopefully you stand corrected now). It may actually turn out to be that poor old helpless seeming Arsene is more cunning than you think and may even be quite annoyed for the Club that members of the board (those lily livered e*g's!) have seen fit to break cover in that he may hold the very plausible view that it's better to maintain the increasingly ridiculous myth that the Club is skinto for as long as possible, and 'who cares what they say about you or me or anyone here?' But with ticket sales needing to be maintained, and the season not being Arsene's best, the board too have a point, at least for this season's comments. For last season's Azinoz's idea seems to ring a bell as to the official reason - but was there an unofficial one as well? Perhaps.

Azinoz
March 14, 2005

Nico,I think the reason was to declare the total overall cost before the press had time to speculate negative or positive veiws and state in no uncertain terms,that in fact we are paying for the player based on performances and over a period of time thus maintaining the illusion that while we are probably not skint we still do not have bundles of money up our sleeves to throw around when we start negotiations for the next big name player. If that theory is correct then I think the Board/Wenger have made a sound business decision. Nobody can now claim we are in a finacial mess and equally cannot assume we are loaded. I think the club has plenty, but who really knows?It's obvious the press haven't got a clue and I will bet that is just how the board would like it.

Bernard
March 14, 2005

Nico, interesting question. As you say, no buy or sale of a player has ever been reported in such detail before or since. Routinely it's someone has been bought or sold for an undisclosed fee. Why? Plenty of opportunities for conspiracy theorists, as you imply, to invent reasons. But there presumably must be one. To an extent it even staged the payments: £9 million or whatever it was then ending up with £17 million (as discussed by you, Chocolate and probably others) if certain UNDISCLOSED criteria were eventually met. Once again, why?

US Martin
March 14, 2005

From Nico:"...and AG could be blamed so the opportunity was there to appear skint - all this assuming of course that the board (and its PR boys) agreed to such a front being presented to the public. But it may be the board wasn't too keen to allow such an impression to reach the point of incriminating them at the hands of folks, fans and press alike, in the annoying habit of dubbing them stingy profit-mongers every minute of the day..."I really wanted to stay away from this now, but that's why I believe Edelman and others made the remarks they made this year. I mean, that theory makes more sense when we don't spend than when we do, right? And we DID spend last year, no? Anyway, it gives one pause, although the real debate will begin this summer as we see whether the club will indeed seek to sign a couple of top players which is all we really need to do. We have solid players in their prime now who are not quite up to winning Europe on their own now and an exciting group of kids who cannot make the difference now, when they're ready the players in their prime will no longer be able to make the difference on their own for that team.. This might be the year to go after two really top-price players and maybe one free-transfer recruit, rather than the usual talented unkowns whose potential outweighs immediate impact..

Nico
March 14, 2005

Dormouse, you (Yorkshire, Bernard, N5er or anyone else) may remember why the board disclosed the Reyes transfer in such detail. I seem to recall there was a particular reason cited by them, or someone, which may have been to do with the size of the deal, and them wanting to spell out the facts in full to avoid misreporting or misunderstandings. The fact is that I do not recall any other transfer, large or small, before or since the Reyes deal being dissected in such a detailed manner. Anyway, the effect of the statement to OFEX has been to illuminate everyone a little more than usual. But could it also have been intended as a demonstration that the manager was being given the money he needed, at precisely the time he needed it, to spend as he wished on the squad? Wenger always seems to have wanted to give the impression he had just enough money for Christmas presents, and this is sound policy if you wish to protect the Club from having to overpay, and AG could be blamed so the opportunity was there to appear skint - all this assuming of course that the board (and its PR boys) agreed to such a front being presented to the public. But it may be the board wasn't too keen to allow such an impression to reach the point of incriminating them at the hands of folks, fans and press alike, in the annoying habit of dubbing them stingy profit-mongers every minute of the day, a little conspiracy theory for anyone interested in such things. Or perhaps it may simply have been the latest OFEX rules which forced them to disclose. As I say, can anyone remember, or shed any light on the matter?

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Phil, Newcastle 1, Spuds 0. I am picking up my winnings in the morning, easy pickings son, what was your prediction now?, oh dear, wrong again, never mind - it's only a game...

US Martin
March 14, 2005

Changes are needed but anything but wholesale, new boy. Your point about getting caught out waiting for youngsters to reach the level needed is well-taken though. Given Senderos' continued growth, the only real reason to by at the back is to protect against the possibility that Sol has reached the point of being regularly injured. Lacking that, we have a solid group at the back. The only other concern at the back would be if Cole indeed leaves which seems more and more remote each day. We face a similar situation in mid-field, where Vieira may or may not be going through the same situation as Sol, and worse our first choice as his partner Gilberto may never return to top form. We need someone who can partner cover or even replace Vieira should this year's set of rumors actually prove true(Quick question-Where is everyone going for this summer's rumors - oops I mean vacation or holiday)Again if Vieira is in form and Gilberto too, or we bring is someone to take his role, we can be confident with Cesc and Flamini supporting them. And who knows, maybe Edu is still here, too. We are okay wide now, especially if Reyes stays(Marca had Vieira signing pre-contracts in Madrid Hotels remember and where is he two years later?) and Bentley comes good to support Bobby and Freddie Up-front I would like and this will surprise everyone us to bring in someone a little better in the air, if only to allow us to create goals from corners with some regularity. But we could solve that by simply working at it on the training ground without bringing in anyone else. But that added threat alone will force re-thinks by Fat F**k Sam and other managers thinking it smart to play nine in the box all match. As for in goal, is there another really top class keeper available worth buying. If the reports are true and we've got 40 million available, we can't throw more than 5 million out for a keeper, and probably won't get lots of return for less. I wouldn't mind us bringing Kuffour, Essien or VanBommel, and Trezeguet or Yakubu, and that would fit in our budget and leave money to go for a keeper should we desire, and if Campbell is healthy beyond doubt(that is not prone to muscle strain and pulls)we could use Essien as insurance at the back as well as in mid-field. Anyway we don't need to toss this team aside and start over - that's a 2-3 process and by then we not just need the kids to come good but be as good or better than the the likes of Vieira and Henry and others which is a REALLY big ask from any young players...

Bernard
March 14, 2005

If Real take Reyes from us, which I don't think is impossible, I'd want someone a damn site better than Owen in exchange. The goalkeeper, is it Cassillas (spelling), Helguaro (definitely spelling) would be ok. Strange situation with Cole. Whether or not he (via his agent) or Chelsea (via Kenyon I guess) set up the meeting, the way things have turned out they both seem to be blaming each other, at least according to the English version of the Marca (spelling yet again maybe). Perhaps not the best way to start at your new club, if he ends up there. The unfortunate thing for him is that through his behaviour over the whole thing he may well have antagonised important people at both clubs (Arsenal and Chelsea), so a transfer somewhere else may not be as unlikely as it seemed before (do Man Utd need a left back). I still hope he stays, but I also hope Reyes does, so what I hope for and what happens may often bear no resemblance to each other.

clock end clive
March 14, 2005

Fred - both semis are at Cardiff.

new boy
March 14, 2005

Of course its hypothesis, but it'd be nice. We'd probably be out bidded for Kompany, won't bid for Ramos, sign some obscure GK, lose Cole, and watch as Man U sign Essien and Chelsea get Gerrard. I just think there's too much money in the premiership to expect budget signings to cover the cracks of a tired squad whilst waiting for youngsters to fulfill their potentails. Big signings this season could see us enter the new stadium with silverware and a young, talented squad threatening to grow into perhaps the best in Europe. Its within our reach, but wholescale changes are needed. I've no idea who'll we'll actually sign, but i hope wenger shows an urgency to take this team on another step and not let Man Utd and Chelsea pull away. Forget the result, did anyone really think this years champions League campaign proved we were good enough to win it, at any stage? That's the benchmark and we've consistently failed. Wenger's and absolute legend and we've shown domestic domination, but this squad needs change.

Dormouse
March 14, 2005

Nico, I completely respect your right to see the Reyes cost as the highest possible cost. Accounting rules change from time to time, but that is certainly the most conservative accounting treatment of his cost, and I have no problem with that. It's all about how to look at the uncertain future. One possibility is that his total cost will be £9m (or whatever, I really ought to look up the correct figure); another is that it will be £17m and there are other possibilities at various points in between. In four years time we can look back and see what the actual figure was. It is important to compare like with like when we are looking at players' costs. Wiltord cost £13m, I think - that was a genuine cash cost; on an equivalent basis Reyes cost £9-17m. I agree that from the Board's point of view they have to regard it as £17m as they aren't free to commit the extra money elsewhere, but from my point of view it is between 9 & 17m depending on how successful he is.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Im so relieved the spuds got knocked out.I wont be needing my horlicks tonight.Back to the FAC a friend of mine who is associated with theFA in soho square has told me that the final will be fixed for us against the drunken jocks to give the FAC much needed publicity.weare drawn with newcastle in the semis.So run along to the bookies first thing in the morning and place your bets.

John
March 14, 2005

Cannon Balls, I think Fred is referring to the back to back defeats in Cup Semi v Utd followed by Chelsea in chmps lge.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Phil have you been down the Four Horseman again, what are you going on about?, back to back defeats , you dont seem to know a lot about Arsenal, anyway down at the lane that time forgot they will not have to worry again about who they get in the FAC semi-final, only if they can finish in front of Charlton in the league. I wouldn't bet on it though.

Fred
March 14, 2005

Owen is not enough for me Real Madrid must give us someone else too! But if we get Owen we may get Stevie G but he will cost at least 30 something mil! and he will have to want to come here because both Man U & Chelsea will out bid us what ever we bid!

Fred
March 14, 2005

O yeah its the semis so it's neutral grounds! sorry

Fred
March 14, 2005

Here's hoping it's Arsenal at home to Blackburn & Newcastle at home against Man U! Noing our luck with draws we'll get Man U away! our game after that is Chelsea away I think! Maybe just maybe we can get revenge for last season's back to back loses that would be very very pleasing.

John
March 14, 2005

Reyes will be gone in the Summer, nothing surer. He wasn't getting on with Henry before the Aragones comments and its got worse since then. And he told that Spanish DJ there were some "bad people" in the dressing room. As well as Henry the others are probably the rest of the French connection. Owen only got another 1/2 hour tonight in Madrid's defeat. I reckon the swap deal is a real possibility.

Mee
March 14, 2005

New Boy: Excellent post although so much of it is pure hypothesis. Why would Toldo come here as against Man U? Would Ljunberg really fetch £10m, the Italian and spanish clubs have now been alerted to Essien, Cole will probably leave, and so on. Arguments like these, are by their nature, hypothetical and yet should half of it materialise it would make an intersting season to come.

Mee
March 14, 2005

new boy
March 14, 2005

With £40 million to spend, and a team that has somewhat stagnated after 5/6 years of the same core players, surely some major rebuilding is due this summer. Arsene may be as shrewd as they come in the bargain transfer market with a the best eye for young talent in the business, but this team needs a reshuffle and an injection of quality, without disrupting the progress of our many young starlets. No squad players, the youngsters need space to develop. If i was le boss, here's what i'd do with the money, akin to the recent post from Gaz. Lehmann isn't good enough for no1, whilst Almunia can't be depended on as back up, so both should leave. Apparently Inter's Toldo wants to leave Italy this summer, and his experience and obvious quality would settle our creaking defence. Bring in a talented but unproven youngster on the cheap (maybe Proto, the belgian)to learn from him and eventually assume the long term position. Campbell is certainly top class, whilst Senderos looks the business, though could suffer from inconsistency at his tender age. I'd spend £15m trying to buy Vincent Kompany to give us a proven star and two extremely talented young prospects as CBs. A shared workload between the three, with Toure as back up and Cygan shown the door (despite a good season) to make way for further developing youth (Garry, Hoyte, Djorou??), seems like a cracking set up at the back. I'd keep Cole, he's world class, simple as that. Clichy will still have chances, whilst long term i think both Cole and Clichy can be encorporated on our left-imagine the relentless overlaps. In addition, i'd splash out a further £12 million on Sergio Ramos, another youmg superstar from seville, to give us a youthful but lavishly talented defence which could realistically grow to be the best in Europe. Lauren should go, again to free up the space for Eboue/hoyte to develop, with versatile Toure providing further cover. Ljungberg out (£10m), SWP in (£17m). Edu will leave on a free, so we should move for Mickael Essien (£13-15m). he could be the long term successor to Vieira, and with Bergkamp retiring would not prevent Fabregas getting regular first team action. I'd sell Reyes, despite being sure he would eventually come good. If his hearts not in it then we're flogging a dead horse, no point. With Quincy and Bentley providing the cover fro SWP and Pires, as well as the Clichy/Cole system being allowed to develop, our wings will be stronger than ever. Owen joins as part of the Reyes deal, completing the side and shifting our dynamic away from reliance on Bergkamp, with SWP feeding Owen giving balance down the right. Out go Lehmann, Almunia, Lauren, Cygan, Ljungberg, Edu, Reyes and Bergkamp. In comes Toldo, Proto, Kompany, Ramos, Essien, Wright-Phillips and Owen. A major shake up i know, but i think we need it to really challenge for the champions league, not just bugger about with quarter finals. Chelsea and Man Utd will strengthen, and we need big name stars to attract supporters to our new stadium. The sums add up, why not Wenger? First XI: Toldo(Proto), Ramos (Eboue), Campbell (Senderos), Kompany (Toure), Cole (Clichy), Wright-Phillips (Bentley), Vieira (Flamini/Gilberto), Essien (Fabregas), Pires (Quincy), Henry (Van Perise), Owen (Aliadiere, Lupoli)

AmericanGooner
March 14, 2005

Since he seems to speak his mind and if he does leave I would love to hear his side on what went wrong with his stay here. Especially anything about the speculation some of us had said about him and Henry.

Mee
March 14, 2005

The performance by Jens yesterday has slightly clouded the goalkeeping dilemma. I wish he would make a series of mistakes, like Carroll so we would have no doubts about him. All goalkeepers, apart from Cech that is, make mistakes, even Cudicini made some howlers, one memorable one against us. He has a kind of teutonic arrogance that I think serves him well. It certainly upsets opposition players, and in the case of Dioup, probably helped to get him sent off. Granted it can work the other way as it did at Spurs last season, but I’m not sure the other names touted are any better.At his age, I realise that he is not a long term answer, but even seaman made lots of mistakes (Gascoigne free kick in the semi-final). Answers on a postcard please . . .

AmericanGooner
March 14, 2005

CB, I posted before reading yours. Thanks.

AmericanGooner
March 14, 2005

Finally, just read where it was said Reyes said so in Marca. Isn't that the Spanish version of The Sun? That's what I've heard. Well, if true, all I can say is that I hope his scoring boots come back. It will make it a difficult choice and if he wants to go it will help increase the fee. I do NOT however want Owen in return.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

American the interview is in todays Spanish newspaper Marca and is reported on the BBC and other news-agencys in the UK. It looks the Real deal, and is part of the softening up prior to the inevitable move, which according to some is already a done deal.

Mee
March 14, 2005

Cannon Balls - thanks for that mate - much appreciated.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Mee i agree with you i am getting the problem all the time from twats like the one up in Glasgow. He probably did yours too.

Brett
March 14, 2005

The False Mee, you learn in time what sort of people they really are, in context of what they write. When someone new comes in and doesn't say anything relevant about Arsenal (like this one), then I tend to ignore them. I'm inflammatory? fine, don't read my posts anymore then. Happy that Spurs lost? I don't care. Arsenal are infinitely better than them, and it is unfortunate we won't drawing against them in the semis, as we would've spanked them otherwise! (It has to be said that Newcastle were lucky!). I am not going to guess your real handle here, but I can guess a few, but I wouldn't want to disappoint you!

AmericanGooner
March 14, 2005

Reyes prior gaffe was well documented where it took place, but I have yet to read where he said this? Was in a newspaper interview? On spanish radio? (which I'm sure he doesn't trust anymore). A magazine article? Television? His website? Until that is made public, it could be an attempt to sell papers. Its not the first time a story was made up. He's already on record as admiring them, why would he make a second stupid comment? Doesn't make sense. Not saying its not possible but you'd think he'd be extremely careful about any comments regarding transfers and especially to Real Madrid.

The real Mee
March 14, 2005

Can we stop this ridiculous habit that some people have of posting under false names. The last three posts attributed to me are false. What is the point of doing this? Those that read my posts will know that I never indulge in swearing in on the forum. If you disagree with what I say please have the courtesy to reply under your own name.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

Reyes admission today that he wants a move to Madrid is an indication that his mind is not focused and Wenger must drop him and play RVP from now on. I heard sometime ago that he was unsettled and that a move to Madrid looked on the cards. The news now is that Owen is coming in the other direction,which will not please everyone if it occurs.

old man of hoy
March 14, 2005

I have to pinch myself sometimes when i read the amount of anti-Arsene crap on this forum. Wake up will you - the man has transformed our club in ways unimaginable. We are what we are because of him alone. The man is a hero. And i can't understand this criticism about him standing by a core set of players - all teams do it - please name me one that has been successful by changing key personnel. Freddie Ljungberg is a player we should cherish, not bemoan - i suspect most of the top clubs in Europe would take him if we let him go. Get some perspective - we are a fine team just short of our magnificent best - there is a lot more to come. See Real lost 2-0 away to giants Getafe. Oh, and Bayern also lost. And Juve could only manage a draw. A funny for Martin J. One night, a rural chemical plant caught fire and exploded in flames. The alarm went out to fire departments in all the neighboring small towns for miles around. When the volunteer fire fighters arrived, the chemical company president announced, "You must save our secret formulas. They're in the vault in the center of the plant. I'll give a $50,000 reward to the fire fighter that brings them out intact." But the roaring flames kept everyone out until a lone siren was heard as the nearby Norwegian township volunteer fire company arrived, better late than never. To everyone's amazement, they drove their run-down fire engine right past the assembled firefighters and, without even slowing down, drove straight into the middle of the inferno. The Norwegian old timers jumped right into the middle of the flames, fought bravely, and soon had extinguished the fire and saved the secret formulas. As they came out, a TV crew captured the grateful chemical company president personally thanking the brave fire fighters. The reporter asked their chief, "So, what are you going to do with all that reward money?" "Vell," said Ole, "I guess da first thing ve do is fix da brakes on dat focking firetruck!"

Nico
March 14, 2005

Dormouse, I am sorry, I've just seen your post after scrolling down a little further than I could earlier. I continue to stand by what I've said before and am sorry if it may seem a little bone-headed and stubborn, but as the Club has provided for £17m in its official statements and records, it's £17m for me until I know another factual interpretation of the deal. When or if there is any difference to this (he gets sold early, for example), various adjustments will be made in the records, and we'll know a different true cost. This is not to insist I'm right and you're wrong, it's the only way that I can interpret the facts on the table. The true cost currently is £17m; it helps me stay sane and sober, and even allows for the consolation of some freed up transfer funds if it ends up being less.

Mee
March 14, 2005

Bret,your posts are boring s*hite. I thought that you would be happy with Tottenham losing.

Mee
March 14, 2005

Bret, if you never read any of their posts how do you know then that they are inflamatory.

Mee
March 14, 2005

Bret,your more inflamatory than Cannonballs.

AmericanGooner
March 14, 2005

As for the FA cup final, by the time the final comes Campbell, Silva and Edu will be fit and have fresh legs. **** Has Reyes' girlfriend gone back to Spain as Myles Palmer alleges? **** Cole as captain, eh? Well, on one hand he has come throught the ranks like Terry at Chelsea. He's respected by his teammates. He's English which is a minor consideration but important outside Arsenal. But there is this Chelsea tapping up thing and if possibly I prefer a captain from the middle of the pitch, next a defender who can see the whole team in front of him like TA6 could. Is Cole a 'talker'? Will he lead by example like Paddy or get in a players face like TA6 or Keane? Or somewhere inbetween (preferable). From all accounts, Senderos has the qualities but until he's ready someone has to captain the ship. I recall it said that TA6 considered a move to Man Yoo in the '90s when we were floundering in the league? **** Dormouse, I'm for buying a very good, experienced CB who has a good 2-3 years left in him. Someone who knows that his role is to bridge the gap till Senderos is ready. Someone who can teach Senderos and Toure`, sort of like Keown did in training. Someone who can read the game very well and pass on these things to Senderos and Toure`. Who ever coaches the backline is not doing the job. Keown helped Toure` settle in the position and I believe contributed greatly to his debut season at the position.

Martin Jol. Interview.
March 14, 2005

Q. Disappointing result today Martin. MJ. Yeah but we were never going to get anything from the man in black. Q. I thought Johnny Cash was dead. . MJ. So did i. Q. Many supporters are puzzled as to why you don't start with Robbie Keane.Your ilusterious neighbors Arsenal don't have Henry on the bench at the start of every match. MJ. Hey!, when Keane is as good has Henry then i will start him every game too. Q. So Martin another trophieless season. Hey !, no, we are still in the London Pubs King of Karaoke contest, and Robie Keanes got a great chance of winning it with his Elvis impersonation. Q. What song does he sing. MJ. One that i picked for him, I Gotta Get Out Of This Place. Q. Do you sing yourself. MJ. Yeah, i do that guy with the Dutch name, Englebert Dumpertruck. Q. Let me quess, Please Release Me. MJ. You got it in one spoof. Q. Do you believe that you will have more chance of silverware next season. MJ. Definitely. Q. Why is that. MJ. Because i will be at Ajax. Q. Thank you Martin

AmericanGooner
March 14, 2005

Quality Gaz (B/Wood), both posts, but especially the first long one. I have a point or two I disagree in the 2nd but overall appreciate the time you put into it. Some things to add, I think the Owen price tag is much too low. I think Quincy would make a great winger. He's a Ronaldo type (Man Yoo) player and would give us a Ronaldo type effect on the right. **** Quality post reliving past moments John. Enjoyed them. I envy those of you who lived through those moments. I became a fan too late in life for some of the memories and too young to live to see some of the great moments. **** SWP can wait. We need spend for other positions right now. No one is willing to buy him at his price. The only club I can think of that needs a winger on the right side and has the money is Real Madrid for the aging Figo but they won't buy him and I would think SWP is loathe to play in Spain and hear monkey chants. January of next season we could possibly get him for a good price, especially if Citeh is floundering. Their debts will be deeper with each passing month. I say Quincy to challenge Freddie on the right for now.

Brett
March 14, 2005

Gaz is one of the few posters here I like to read. Even if it takes him 2 hours to write his post, I make the time to read it. He's also one of the few that has tought-provoking comments, at the same time not making any inflammatory comments, which some here seem to fall into. There are several posters here I don't bother read at all(I won't say who, but you know who!). Gaz, I hope your stay on this forum is a long & fruitful one, and keep people sane and take things in perspective. By the way Gaz, what about one of the two Southampton goalies? Niemi is obvioulsy proven, and Smith is keeping him out of the team. Surely they can't keep hold of two great keepers, especially when both are better than any keeper we've got.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 14, 2005

Evening all. Been thinking a lot about what I'd do in the summer so I've put my managers hat on an come up with this piece of 'team surgery' I'd like Arsene to perform. Well, for a start I cant wait untill this season is over (although after yesterday I'm looking forward to the up-coming semi-final). I cant remember who it was who said it but someone mentioned that they love pre-season and the hope that a big new signing brings to a Club. I'm exactly the same. I love reading the papers, checking websites for news of an unscheduled press conference (which are usually untrue!), and watching Skysports news to see the 'breaking news' bar on the bottom change to yellow when a signing is announced and then hurridly texting friends to try and break the news first!!. Theres also the excitement iof being out and recieving a text saying that we've just made a big signing-and getting home quickly to see the news on Skysports. I'm a big kid when it comes to all of this and yet the last two seasons have been fruitless and totally boring in terms of transfers (especially incoming) despite litterally hundreds of rumours. I think we all know though that this pre-season must be very very different and I can see lots of activity both out, and more importantly in to the Club. So on that basis where would I start? Well for a start both keepers would be sold. I think Jens would make a good no 2 but he wouldnt be my no 1. The problem is though is that he wouldnt accept the no 2 position (leading up to the World Cup of course), and so he would go back to Germany. Manuel on the other hand, despite his heroics at Sheff utd isnt good enough to be our no 2 either! So he would be sold too. I guess for both of these we wouldnt get more than 1.5M which will go into the kitty of 40M we're rumoured to have. Any top class replacement would cost between 6-8M and even though theres been lots of keepers mentioned I'm not sure who I'd go for. With Arsenes world-wide scouting network though I'm hoping they've come up with the best out there, and will spare no expense getting him. As for the no 2 its obvious that Stuart Taylor has no future at the Club so I'd hope we could either promote someone from within, although I'm not sure how good they are, or we spend 2-3M on a young up-and-coming, and preferbly English keeper from outside the Premiership. Looking at the defence we've had problems here all season. Sols becoming more and more injury prone whilst Kolos gone backwards in his developement after impressing in his first full season at centre-half. Ralphs lost form too whilst AC3's head has certainly been turned by talk of this chelscum move. Personally I would sell AC3 for 25M. Gael Clichy is such a good player that you cant keep him out of the team for much longer, and as much as I like AC3, and dont want to lose him, the money being talked about is far too good to turn down for a full-back and if its chelscum offering it I would still take it! Dont give me any crap about not selling to your rivals as I'm not worried about it. I've said this many times before but Barca sold Figo to Real, now are you telling me that Barca are any smaller because of it? Of course not. Barca invested the money in strengthening the side and look who's top of the league today. As for Juve they sold Zidanne to Real-and got Pavel Nedved for half the price. In my opinion theres nothing wrong with selling to your rivals for silly money, as long as they invest it back in the team. Gael Clichey would therefore take over the no 3 shirt with Arsene investing, once again, 3-4M in a quality covering left back. As for right-back I reckon Ralphs allways been harshley treated and has simply become a victim of the general defensive shambles. With Eboue looking quite good and Justin Hoyte just having signed a new deal we would be well covered in that position. Its at centre-half where the second serious ammount of money needs to be spent. I'm happy with Sol but he's becoming more and more injury prone. He admitted himself that he struggles with his game when first coming back from injury and this has been bourne out as his poor form has coincided with his injury problems. Kolo's form has dipped since last year and I dont see him a first-choice centre-half any more. I was advocating him as a possible right-back and I still feel thats going to be his best position. For me he's a brilliant squad player as he's very versatile, but he's not my first choice centre-half. Phillipe Senderos on the other hand is looking very impressive. I still feel he makes too many mistakes but if he can cure this problem he looks every inch a first-choice centre-half alongside a fully fit Sol. On the basis that Sol's injury problems wont resurface though we need to spend, and spend heavily on a top quality centre-half. This player would be the equal of Sol and Senderos, and would give us 3 first-choice centre-halves. Once again I dont know who's available (Ledley King gets mentioned a lot but I'm really not sure and reckon theres better value to be had on the continent) but I would think 14-18M should be paid out for this vital world-class player. I would keep Pascal as a 4th or 5th choice replacement as I think he's better than people give him credit for. OK, he's not top notch, but he can do a job and I would keep him for this reason. So thats the defence sorted out its now time to look at the midfield. Theres been a lot said said about the form of PV4 and I cant deny that he's not had a great season. I want him to stay but I'm not prepared to suffer another pre-season of transfer speculation. If it starts up again I want him sold, and sold quickly. We'll never get the 23M offered last season so we would expect to get 15M which would be pumped right back into signing his replacement. Now we have a big decision to make here. I'm sure Arsene would love Gerrard but would he be willing to pay 30M for him, and would he be prepared to join us? Well for a start I think we could afford him looking at my transfer figures, would he join us though? Personally I cant help wondering if what happened in the Carling Cup final hasnt harmed his chances of going to chelscum. There allready seems to be a lot of pressure on him from Scousers as they think he's joining chelscum for the money, and after scoring that own-goal he's getting more and more stick, and if he does join them the abuse he would get, not to mention his family back in Liverpool, might just persuade him not to move there. I'm sure that Liverpool fans would see a move to us as not only a step up in footballing terms, (which sounds a bit daft considering they're still in the Champions league), but wouldnt be for money reasons which they see a move to chelscum being all about. So its either PV4 or Gerrard for me, and as long as PV4's head is right I'd be happy with him. Who would I play alongside this player though? On the basis that I wouldnt offer DB10 another contract (I'll get to that later on), I would give Cesc the No 10 shirt and give him the 'playmaker' role we'd lose by DB10 leaving. With back up from a fully fit G19, and a fast improving (and very impressive looking) Flamini we'd be well covered in this position. Indeed it would be even stronger if Edu stays (I really think he's a quality player), or if he goes a 5-7M replacement (Van Bommel?) is signed. As for the right-hand side its simple. Sell FL8 for 10M, and sign SWP for 17-18M. I could go into details as to why but its simpler to say that we would be replacing a very average wide midfielder who can score goals, with a very exciting dynamic wide midfielder who can also score goals. Simple! As for the left I'm convinced Jose is leaving in the summer. He's obviously not happy in England and I would sell him before his transfer value drops. He was bought as a replacement for DB10 and its simply not worked out. I'll be sad to see him go but as a Manager you've got to be harsh! I think Real Madrid would like him and I'd do a swap with Michael Owen (I'll get to him a bit later too). Have to say I've no idea who I'd play on the left. I'd keep RP7 who could possibly play there untill maybe Ryan Smith developes, otherwise Arsene might have to go into the market for a wide player. 7-9M should get the services of a top young player in that position (perhaps Downing from Boro who's been mentioned today?). Another reason why I'd keep RP7 is that he could also cover for SWP on the right. I know he's not quite the player he was but with over 10 goals from midfield, again, I'd argue he's not finished yet. Another departure, (on a free I think?) would be JP21. Its a shame he never fullfilled his promise with us but he just never seemed to take his chances with us. He always looked light-weight to me but I'm sure he'll do a good job at Birmingham, his obvious destination. Up front TH14 remains our undisputed (and rightly so) no 1 striker. Who plays alongside him though? We'll I've already given the answer-its Michael Owen. I said last week that at first I was unsure about his arival, but the signing of SWP makes his signing seem far more obvious, and for the first time since IWWW we would have a recognised world-class goal scorer. This of course means that DB10 would no longer be our first-choice striker, and indeed I would hope he retires in the summer. He's been a legend at Arsenal but its time to move on, and I fear that whilst he's at the Club Arsene will allways feel tempted to play him, and this reliance on him I feel has effected us in Europe when he hasnt been there. Thanks for the memories Dennis (and theres been hundreds of them) but its time to retire gracefully. As cover for TH14 and Owen (no 9?), I'd keep RVP. He's very raw, and of course hot-headded, but I still think he's worth a chance. I'd also like to see more of Quincy and perhaps Alliadiere. I've never been totally sure of him but he deserves one more chance after all his recent injuries. If Arsene still feels we're light up front which is possible, he could spend maybe 3-4M on a good european forward. So there you go, I,ve donned my managerial hat and made some tought decisions-but could we afford to do this? Well looking at these figures we could: Out: Jens (1M), Almunia (0.5M), AC3 (25M), Jose (10M), FL8 (10M), and Edu and Pennant (free). In: 2 keepers (10M), replacement left-back (3M), Centre-half (15M), Midfielder (6M), SWP (17M), Owen (10M), Downing (10M), and another forward (3M). Now that works out at ins= 74M, but the outs=86.5M (this includes the rumoured 40M allready in the kitty). So basically we could do all of this and still have 12.5M left over, so if PV4 did leave, add the 15M we'd get for him and that =27.5M. Now I'm sure if he leaves Arsene would want a top quality replacement and Gerrard fits the bill perfectly, and I wonder if he did suggest he wanted to join us I'm sure, somehow, we could find another 7.5M to get him. If we cant get him it still leaves us with a huge ammount to sign another player, possibly Essian, although at a rumoured 10-12M he possibly sounds a better bet anyway. So there you go, easy!!! Of course this is all just a dream (and great fun too), and theres no way this would ever happen, but I'm half hoping we do make some of the signings I've mentioned. Anyway heres hoping for Blackburn in the semi (huh-some hope!), and to a real productive summer in the transfer market. Good night and Come on Arsenal.

Dormouse
March 14, 2005

I agree with your views on 5 CBs, up to a point, and suspect that is how AW will think. But I think that there are a lot of risks with going with the 4 we have, or with selling any of them. It is similar to the situation at the end of last season. We had Campbell & Toure who had just gone through a very good season as our 1st choice pair, with Cygan (always rated as a good back up by AW) in reserve & Senderos coming through. I'm not sure he could have predicted that Campbell & Senderos would spend a lot of the season injured, that Toure would not combine well with Cygan and would have a generally poor season whoever he played with. We cannot have huge confidence that Campbell won't be out a lot of next season; we don't know that Senderos will maintain his form through a season (though there seems no reason to believe that he won't); we don't want to have to play Toure & Cygan together or whether Toure will recover anything of last season's form. It cannot be worth selling Cygan - he's played well this year, is on (relatively) low wages and we would not get much for him. Toure is not worth the £10m+ that he seemed to be worth at the end of last season & is also not on huge wages - it has to be worth a season to see if he can recover his form of if he can be converted into a general utility player or another position (preferably not RB). I certainly would not want to have to play Djourou in a big match. I think the position will be clearer at the end of next season, and would rather buy a CB than take a risk.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

I reckon that we will get the Bar-Codes in the semi's, but i would prefer Blackburn - but see us getting the harder of the two also rans.

Steve Martin
March 14, 2005

The year does not end in 1...

North Bank Mural
March 14, 2005

Can't agree with posters namimg Jonathon Woodgate as a potential signing. Have you failed to notice that he has never actually played for RM?! Obviously he has a serious injury problem, he spent a lot of time out at Leeds/Newcastle too. Couple that with his dubious past and his involvement with that thug Bowyer I think he is a big liability. Blackburn in cup draw would be my choice, beat Manure in Final.

cANNON bALLS
March 14, 2005

OH DEAR !.Newcastle 1 - Spuds 0 !

Nico
March 14, 2005

choccy, I really don't know what you're on about. Reyes will cost us £17m if things go well; that is the number a supporter such as me needs to go on. That is why there will always be a schism between fans and fans who are also shareholders, or who care about the finances of the Club, or who read financial statements, or who observe accounting rules in their thinking, and quite frankly I'm surprised at your inability to grasp this. Now things may not go well with Reyes. I'm increasingly doubtful today, but I've only got the latest papertalk from La Marca to go on, I admit - a quote attributed to the boy spun as a plea going roughly like this - 'directors of both RM and Arsenal, please talk to each other about me'). If he goes, let's hope we get our money back and that our losses won't be too severe. There is a scenario where we sell for only, say, £5m, and are obliged to pay Seville for his achievements with RM if he moves there. You go on about salaries being the responsibility of the board and the board alone. I am sorry but I do not agree here either. I admit, though, to not knowing this for certain, and when I do I will be back here with the honest answer either way. But it would seem odd to me that Wenger can be responsible for the playing side including transfers in and out, but not for the salaries the boys get paid. That we can be outbid by chelscum and the mancs on anything and everything is nothing new; even Everton and Blackburn have managed it before ffs! Wenger may lose Essien since his interest in him has been so well telegraphed over the years that the player's had ample time to blossom to the extent that every rich club is now competing for him. Pity if we lose him if previously we'd earmarked him for purchase. Maybe we should have gone for him two years ago before the likes of chelscum woke up to his talents. Or last summer when Paddy was on the move, and Edu's contract was winding down to zero. By the way, am I the only one who thinks the chelscum fans threatening Anders Frisk's family were planted by someone important? Chelsea's behaviour increasingly appears to smell of a gangster culture.

Steve Martin
March 14, 2005

Ian Ridley does an article that shows no respect whatsoever... I would hope that Arsene Wenger and Arsenal make sure this man never enters an Arsenal Football ground again... Arsene Wenger, "is he the man to rebuild Arsenal"... Look at the evidence mate, so called sporting (football) journalist... If it were not for Arsene Wenger, Highbury would be Arsenals home ground forever... Arsene Wenger has not only, arguably, built three Arsenal teams, won three titles, so far the only foreign manager to do so, with Three FA Cups, and two further finals (FA & UEFA) seven FA Cup semi finals in 8 years, he has also been the main reason that the club have laid out some £350m on a new state of the art 60.000 seater stadium... The article does no justice to what Arsene Wenger has achieved at our club, since his arrival... I doubt any Arsenal fan could have believed that we would be where we are now in 1995... No, Mr Ridley, takes your thoughts and stick them where the sun don't shine... You have a job, one you have to justify, and you do this by writing a complete load of bollocks...

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 14, 2005

Regarding that Ian Ridley link I just gave the point that struck a chord with me was the comparison with Sir moan-a-lots first great side, inspired by Cantona. On paper this was a top side, but in europe it failed. Fergiscum ripped it apart and built a new one and they finally succeeded. Thats why I gave that link. It wasnt because I was particually agreeing with the idea of Arsene leaving, but more that maybe he's got to rip this side apart to get the european glory he craves. Come on Arsenal.

Cannon Balls
March 14, 2005

It was difficult to tell who was the lower division side in that Blackburn v Leicster tie. Physical football is king again thanks to the likes of Mourinho and co. If the magic of the FA Cup draw casts it's spell Arsenal v United looks like being the final. And that is what the media and most neutral supporters would like to see. The thought of Spuds V Blackburn is too awful to contemplate,it could drive the competition into terminal decline. Mind you,i have fond recollections of the last time that those two met in a Cup Final at Cardiff, albeit only the despised League one. The Spuds Messiah Hoddle gave an interview in that strangulated use of the English language that he employs in which he revealed that: " This club (Spuds) have a five year plan to put us on top, making me manager was the first step, and winning this cup today is going to be the second one". Rovers of course beat them 2-1 - with Arsenal old-boy Andy Cole applying the 'coup de grace'. Hoddle was so gutted at the result and the ref' refusing 'Teddy' a nailed on pen'for a ludicrous dive, that he ran off refusing to go up and collect his customary losers medal!. I love these Spuds anecdotes - you couldn't make em up!!!. Come on the Bar-Codes!!.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 14, 2005

Interesting piece on Arsene Wenger from Ian Ridley of the Observer today. He talks about a lot of the worries I think we all have with regards to the great man: http://football.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,4284,1436427,00.htm?gusrc=rss Come on Arsenal.

chocolate gooner
March 14, 2005

On Wright, My recollection is rather different from yours. Yes he got hurt but he was fit well before the FA cup final. I clearly recall Wright complaining that the media were misrepresenting the extent of his injury and… Arsene saying something about Wright and England. In any event Arsene played Anelka despite calls from the media and not a few fans, I might add, for a more experienced striker. Again, if Wenger had any kind of antipathy to youth he would have asked the club for money for an experienced striker. And remember this was a decision he made in the run-in to his first double, so it wasn’t as if there was nothing at stake. He also dropped Keown in favour of Toure last season. So your argument still doesn’t stack up. That’s my lot. Cheers.

F. Danzenee
March 14, 2005

My team for next year Gk. Lehmann, Toure, Campbell, Sendoros, Clichy, RW Cesc, Pat V, Gilberto, Pires, Van Persie, Henry

chocolate gooner
March 14, 2005

Dave M… I don’t agree with you. No offence. The example you use about Gilberto/ Edu versus Flamini/ Cesc proves nothing because guess what? … Gilberto has been injured and in the event AW wasn’t exactly in hurry to rush Edu back when he returned from Brazil, was he?. If Wenger always went for experience against youth he would have gone out and bought a midfielder instead of having to trust Flamini and/ or Cesc. He didn’t. In Wenger’s career he’s probably given more teenagers their debuts than any other top manager I can think of. Henry, Trezeguet, Vieira, Ash, Fonfana, and another Ivorien youngster called Traore that he also played at Monaco, all of them teenagers and I’m sure that there’s more… that is before you count the players in their very early twenties that he’s given games in the first team. Your claim has no basis in fact… I feel that it is a pet theory of yours, which you seem to have great difficulty in letting go. If the facts don’t stack up then the accusation can’t possibly be made to stick. That’s the way it is. I would love to stay and debate this but duty calls. Cheers.

Jose Antonio Reyes
March 14, 2005

has once again admitted that he would love to play for Real Madrid - if the Gunners agree to let him go. The 21-year-old told Spanish sports newspaper Marca on Sunday: "Of course, it would be an honour if Real Madrid were interested in me. "Anyone would want to play for a club as big as that - but for that to happen the directors must speak. "They are the people who must agree. Madrid have to speak to Arsenal." It is not the first time Reyes has been linked with the Spanish giants. Last month he fell victim to a hoax in which he was tricked by a radio presenter into saying he would like to move to Real. Reyes joined Arsenal from Seville in 2003 but has previously spoken of being homesick.

Fred
March 14, 2005

Gaz I would like Owen and Woodgate for Reyes or Ronaldo for Reyes. As long as it equals the amount we spent. Imagine Ronaldo and Henry!!!!!!!!!

chocolate gooner
March 14, 2005

I fail to see how AW can drop Henry for anyone… he is our best player and if that makes him untouchable; so what? He’s earned it? I also fail to see how you can leave out Vieira for either of the youngsters. 1) Because even at the level of form he’s shown this season he is still our best midfielder and 2) simple commonsense tells you that you don’t drop your captain for a 21 y/o, who has been at the club less than a year, or for a 17y/o without having a damn good reason for so doing and without expecting some serious ruction in the squad. A simple cost/ benefit analysis will show that particular strategy to be silly, to say the least. 3) Ashley Cole is ahead of Clichy in terms of experience and ability at the moment and plays entirely on merit. 4) Sol is our most experienced defender and is ahead of any other CB at the club and in addition except one of your main players in defence is having an absolute ‘mare, it is folly to go switching defenders just because they’ve had an odd bad game. Defending is something that is done best when a unit understands each other.. and you don’t achieve that level of understanding by chopping and changing at every sign of a loss of form. If it becomes protracted like Lehmann then the player gets dropped. 5) Everybody else has been dropped and often when they’ve been in good form… including Bergy. 6) And finally you can’t just throw kids into a match with all the expectations of the fans riding on them and expect them to perform all the time. More than a few promising players have been destroyed because they were played too soon and too often. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the way Wenger has handled the youngsters at our club, they are progressing nicely and are getting games that, quite frankly, they wouldn’t get at any other top club in Europe. That is the real situation … we may not be perfect but there is really nothing to complain about. Cheers all and good day.

DaveM
March 14, 2005

A simple example is, if Gilberto and Edu had beeb fit and not in contract dispute, how many games would Flamini and Cesc (two of our big successes this season) have started? Even if Giberto, Edu and Vieira had been poor all through the Autumn, I don't think Wenger would have shaken things up voluntarily. That's why I've posted here before saying that if FL8 pickedup a two month injury it would be in the team's best interests, because it's the only way to get him out of the side. When Wenger drops FL8 for Quincy, or Gilberto for Flamini, even though the senior player is match fit, I'll believe he's letting the young players compete rather than just fill holes created by injuries and suspensions.

DaveM
March 14, 2005

Chocolate, no Ian Wright tore a hamstring in an FA cup game in January. This meant Wenger had to give Anelka long run in the side, and he came good. WWW wasn't fit again until the FA cup final, by which point it was obvious that Anelka suited our style of play better. I'd spent the whole autumn posting here moaning that Wright was holding us back, and that Anelka should have been given more opportunities. At the time WWW was untouchable. Without that hamstring we'd have won nothing. Senderos is benefitting from injuries. Colebenefittedfrom Silvinho's passport. Wenger clearly has faith in his young players, he just doesn't see them as competing with his first team. It is only after an injury crisis and a sustained run in the side that Wenger's view of a player changes. This is the case with Cole, who will always be picked aheadof Clichy if fit. Who handles young players better? In my view Ferguson. He's had nothing like the talent Wenger has available now since the mid-90's, but there are many more failed young players (e.g. players who've been given a reasonable chance and haven't been good enough) at OT than there are at Highbury. Ferguson has a ruthless streak I wish Wenger had. I don't think a 1st team player there would rest on their laurals the way they would do here, because Ferguson would drop them and play a young player. I suspect there are a few managers who would do better with the squad Wenger has assembed than Wenger. For me it's not a good thing that no Arsenal youth product has started two consecutive games and later been sold as a failure since Wenger arrived. That's the mark of a manager not taking chances - a manager with a rigid idea of 'first team' and 'other'. The hierachy is easy. Flamini is ahead of Cesc, and Edu is ahead of both if them. When they're all fit, that's the order he selects them in. When everyone's available the team he'll pick is extremely predictable, and it doesn't matter how we're playing as a team or as individuals. He's always been predictable with his selections, and I expect he will be until he leaves.

North Bank Mural
March 14, 2005

The only objective yesterday was to avoid defeat, we did that without needing a replay. Obese Samuel and his industrial hackers played their normal disgraceful spoiling tactics, no attempt to play or make a game of "football". For me a great indication of the managers "ability" and the extremely low talent level of his "players". These things considered we have to be pleased with the result. So what Freddie missed a sitter (understatement) and the display wasn't vintage but statistics show we had a lot of posession and played some good one touch stuff at times. Have to say though, Jens gets an "assist" for El Hadj Doofus' sending off. He had to go but the reaction of Lehmann was well over the top, as was PV's face holding parlaver, I was embarrassed. Thought RP was unlucky but his reputation for Olympic style diving now precedes him. Bolton supporters are incredibly short sighted, blinkered ignoramuses who get all they deserve for shelling out hard earned to watch that shite week in week out. You got a plan B for next time Sam?!! LOL!

DaveM
March 14, 2005

Cannon Balls, yes he has tried some competition with the keepers. I think this was more because of a general mistrust of Lehmann (remember how angry he was after the penalty at WHL?) than because of poor performances. This summer we'll see a new keeper who'll be number one. Nonetheless, he has allowed the keepers to compete. This to me is the exception that proves the rule. Pires and Reyes should be competing, but I never get the impression that the one who starts depends on the performance in the previous game. He rotates them, in the way he rotated Freddie and Wiltord. Pires was for sale last summer, because Wenger had decided that Reyes was the wide left player he wanted. Nobody bid for Pires though. You're right, in the past players have been dropped for poor form, but they were always outsiders (todays outsiders are the players who've come from the youth system). Kanu was never ahead of Bergkamp, and for the last couple of years Wenger would have sold him if he'd received an offer. Wright was quite rightly dropped for poor form. Jeffers and Upson were dropped and Jeffers in particular did get chances. My point isn't that Wenger never drops players who don't produce (I'm sure he'd drop young players who didn't), but that there's an untouchable group of players who will always play. This will hold us back. Wenger clearly rates Ljungberg, for instance, he won't expose him to competition, and he'll always play him no matter what form he's in.

DaveM
March 14, 2005

With CBs, Djourou (17) has played against two Premiership sides this season and done well. Next year he'd be an acceptable 5th choice. We're not going to buy another CB without selling one, because we're not going to have 5 CBs who really expect to play on the books. Everyone's first choice sale is apparently Cygan, but he's had his best season for us and hasn't let us down. I expect Senderos to play well with every other CB at the club, which makes him unique. American, Freddie gets bullied all the time. He doesn't quit, but he can't compete phyiscally in a tight game. His great strength is running into the box unmarked, not battling players one on one to get involved and to take some pressure off the rest of the midfield.

chocolate gooner
March 14, 2005

Nico… I wouldn’t let the apparent absurdity of any situation bother me too much if I were you… after all life itself can be said to be absurd. And what is more absurd than grown men debating the merits and demerits of a football club over the net.. so one more absurdity is probably not that odd. To the main issue. My point, which I fully admit that I misstated, is that the amount you said that Wenger spent on Reyes wasn’t of the order that you claimed and that affects, drastically, the amount you say that he has spent overall. That’s it really. On the amount you say that he had available in the window, my view remains that it couldn’t have been that much money. The idea that the directors are suddenly willing for us to pay high transfer fees (and remember the transfer fee doesn’t include wages) is not borne out by the facts. We have the entire Ashley Cole kafuffle on our hands because someone, somewhere made him an offer he considered derisory. That someone wasn’t Wenger. We don’t have the resources of a Manchester United or a Chelsea… that is a fact. If Chelsea make a bid for Essien we’re sunk on that deal and AW will have to look elsewhere. And no one has offered Wenger an amount like the one Ferguson spent on Rooney. That too is a fact. What we demand of the man, in my opinion, is idiotic (I’m not referring to you, just speaking generally). We want him to field a team of English players although most of the good ones are overrated and overpriced, we also want him to field the youngsters and still be able to compete with the likes of Chelsea and ManUre and win us trophies while his at it… and furthermore we also want him to sign established stars while we haven’t got the money either for the transfer fees or the stars wages, and we don’t have the moolah- no matter what anyone says. I’m not saying that we are paupers but we can’t compete at the very upper echelons of the market. We can’t bid for Adriano for a start... Now all that is what I’ll describe as absurd. The press is now full of articles, which are saying that there will be major surgery in the summer. I personally hope that that is not the case. We need some new players and a replacement for Lehmann. You also state something that is pretty obvious which is that Henry is a unique striker and as such finding a partner for him will require a lot of thought and a fair bit of luck. My own opinion is that Owen ain’t good enough. I would also like to add that I would hate to see us give up on Reyes so soon. The guy didn’t win footballer of the month for nothing. There is real ability in the guy and it should be AW’s job to harness it. On your idea that if he does fail then his transfer fee becomes a waste… I have to say that I don’t get that one… Dormouse’s view is entirely similar to mine on that particular issue, nuff said. Cheers…. … … … … … … I see that Ian Ridley has an article in the Observer in which he questions whether Wenger is the man to lead Arsenal into the future. My question to Ridley is; if not Wenger then who? It is too easy to come up with idiotic notions like conservatism in selection just because Wenger doesn’t bawl out his players in public but I recall Wenger dropping Ian Wright in favour of Anelka. If he were a coward he wouldn’t have dared do that as Wright had allies in the media because he had a column in one of the tabloids at the time and as Niall has rightly pointed out, he has dropped all sorts of player in the past. And what our youth expert Dave M never tells us is which other manager Wenger should look to for an example of how to handle young players. Who else in the premiership is giving youngsters as much of a chance as Wenger is? As for the notion of a rigid hierarchy… is Flamini ahead of Cesc… or is it the other way round, what is this hierarchy and where does Edu fit on the ladder. The man picks the team he believes will win any given game and the idea that any manager, whose job depends entirely on results, will drop a player solely n the grounds of age is preposterous. What nonsense! Cheers all.

DaveM
March 14, 2005

Wenger has 'total belief' in his players, and that's a big part of the reason we've struggled this year. When the 'senior' players play badly, they aren't dropped, even if they have been poor several games in a row. Ljungberg, Bergkamp, and Reyes were awful against BM, and their reward was 90 minutes against Bolton. I'm sure Wenger believed they'd redeem themselves, and I think that's what he always believes. That's why the title slipped away before Christmas, with the same non-performing players playing game in, game out. Our players are reasonably intelligent. They must know, subconciously at least, that if they play badly they're pretty much guarenteed another chance. I think that's why we've had so many uninspired performances this season. Wenger really thinks the players will make up for their poor games. I think this is tied into the type of squad he wants to build. A squad where the players are treated like adults, and where there is great togetherness. Everyone knows their place. This is also why he doesn't want two senior players for each position. He doesn't want competition, he doesn't want to deal with disgruntled senior pros moaning to him. He thinks collectivism, rather than compeition, is more lilkely to be build a winning side. That's why I found the selection for Bolton so depressing. I don't think he's learnt anything from this season about how to put out a first team which is always motivated. I wouldn't give a stuff about Ljungberg if I thought we really would buy SWP. There's no way Ljungberg would get in the side ahead of him, and Freddie would leave within a year. I just don't think Wenger wants that sort of agro. Instead we'll offer Freddie a new contract, and David Bentley will be his 'cover'. He'll be given as many opportunities as Pennant and he'll ask to leave next summer. Then Wenger can think again, but another season will have been wasted. Not just because Freddie does us in tactically against good sides, but because it will perpetuate the complacent attitude the 'senior' players have.

Nico
March 14, 2005

...unpredictability of injuries...line 4, sorry

Nico
March 14, 2005

Niall, not sure if you're the only one I should be replying to, so apologies in advance to any others whose posts to me I may have missed. Wenger would have bought in January if Edu had left. He's repeated this a few times now, so the implication is he could have laid his hands on someone or other. Furthermore it's now on record that we could and should have bought a player or two last summer for strengthening/freshening up purposes, the unpredictability being the only excuse. Where were the weaker areas? Well the keeper position needed to be reinforced with a serious future number 1. A red card or suspension to Lehman, even an on-form Lehman (which well before the Jan window was no longer the case), was going to leave us with whom exactly? And central mdfield - on-off dilly dallying by Paddy should have been met with a signing. We have been left woefully short in midfield, as Vieira's recall from the dead when injured meant a long rehab followed by a notoriously long time to get match fit. Then we lose Gilberto, and Edu is stalling all the while on a new deal. He tried to strengthen the right side, but something tells me he didn't show enough intent to land his men who both cried off at the last minute. I grant you that for numerous reasons January is not the best time to seek to buy world class, though it's as ok a time as any when players are offered to you on a plate. But he could and should have been more proactive last summer, and it seems he's now admitted that. Finally, just to address once more this biz about the unpredictability of injuries - it is a well known historical fact that champions wishing to retain their titles buy to strengthen and freshen their squads during the close season. Liverpool and the Mancs were doing it throughout their heydays, and the greatest continental clubs stayed on a roll by following this policy. You never stand still, or staleness takes root, and staleness is as much to blame for our problems as anything else this season.

Hong Kong Gooner
March 14, 2005

Although it is pretty difficult to judge the quality of our performance when Bolton were down to ten after eight minutes, I don't really agree with those who say that at any time Bolton looked like they could pull back a goal.I don't recall them having a corner or creating a chance in open play, they had a few punts into the box form free kicks and lots of throws hurled in from anywhere in our half.The thing was, aside from a close-range header from Giannopouolos they offered almost nothing and as on other occasions in the last few games we defended the high ball in very well.It can't be a coincidence that this improvement has coincided with the emergence of Senderos, who is not only turning in outstsanding individual performances but who seems to have a calming influence on those around him, so that Kolo and Jens/Almunia are also putting in better performances.I also thought that Jose did pretty well playing in effect as the lone forward and he looked more prepared than of late to deal with the physical side of things.Perhaps playing with more confidence in Thierry's absence.Finally, can't understand how anyone can watch Patrick perform like that and say that they are willing to see him go.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Mee,Jol on having his arm twisted to sign a contract at the lane that time forgot,quite sensibly had a clause inserted that if any Dutch clubs approached him that he would be entitled to hold talks with them and leave to join them, without any compensation being involved to Spuds. Levy who is to directing a football club what 'Big Sam' is to entertainment on the pitch, rather niavely agreed to this, no doubt under the misaprehension that no one leaves the lane where time stood still and the year is always 1961 for a poxy Dutch Club!. Your prediction of 4-1 was of course under another of your numerious persona non gratia muli-personality syndrome drink influenced fatigue rage crazed persona. Though it was a ponderous attempt at humour, by suggesting that 'we' would beat BM by that score line!. Giving the 'AG' , the boards leading us to bankruptcy a rest these days i see, however it will not be long before they reappear, the urge to do so will overcome any retincence that may be holding you back. Another manic burst of crap ancient jokes will no doubt appear also. Reality being an illusion created by lack of alcohol it seems in your case.

Dormouse
March 13, 2005

I can cope with only beating BM 1-0 & going out of the ECL, but the idea of our great summer team improvement being swapping Reyes for Owen makes me really depressed.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 13, 2005

Talksports Spanish correspondant has reported that the big football story in Spain (covered by most of the papers) is this possible swap deal involving Jose and Owen. I reckon its going to happen, and as long as we also sign SWP too I think it could be a good move. Come on Arsenal.

DHD
March 13, 2005

I'm sure AC3 will make a very good captain, but I think Terry is going to be around for some years.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 13, 2005

I penned my 'going out of europe post' on thursday but simply never got a chance to post it. Since then we've reached another FA Cup semi-final after beating a physically over-the-top Bolton side. Theres no point going into what they're like, we all know. We also all knew that Allerdyce would blame Jens for their defeat. He's a pratt of the highest order and lets just be thankfull that we never gave him a chance to 'gloat' at a good result against us. Thought FL8 was better than on wednesday (even taking into account that miss!!), but that wasnt difficult. Indeed the same could be said of Jose. RP7, Gael, and Senderos (again), all impressed although to be fair it was a fairly competant performance with no-one playing poorly. So a semi-final awaits against the mancs or sperz (come on-you all know its going to happen!) and either way its a huge game and we should all look forward to a big day in Cardiff. Anyway, back to my original post from thursday. Obviously it was written imidiately after the Bayern game but I still stand by everything I said, so her goes then: I was going to post a rather negative piece on tuesday about why I thought we wouldnt beat Bayern, but late that day I recieved an e-mail from Ken Friar regarding an apologetic e-mail I 'd sent to him about the official new Stadium website (its a long story!). It was such a nice e-mail (Mr Friars a top bloke, a true supporter, and has been pivitol in the Club realising its dream, and of course ours of building a new Stadium), that it didnt seem right posting such a critical piece. I'm glad I made that decision although, unfortunately, everything I said in my post did infact come true. I said a few weeks back that I'm in no way going to be critical of Arsene untill I see what happens in the summer, and I'm going to stand by that, but obviously any critical post on the Club will in some way be critical of the manager. What I want to make clear though is that I'm backing Arsene to get it right in the summer, and subsequently in Europe next season, and that this post is simply my opinions on wednesdays game. So here goes then. For a start usually aftter a loss (of any kind) I go into some sort of 'twilight zone' where I cant think of anything else, I feel totally miserable, and nothing else seems to matter. Its a horrible 'hour' and came to a head when we lost at home to chelscum in the quaters last year. That usual '1 hour' lasted for 24 and it was a horrible feeling, one which I wouldnt want to repeat (but no doubt will do in the future!). Anyway I'm sure you've all got your own way of dealing with defeat and thats mine, and at least I know that the good noghts far outweigh these bad ones. Saying that on Wednesday I felt nothing after the game. For the first time ever as an Arsenal fan I felt no dissapointment after a defeat, and it realy hurts me to say that. There was such an inevitability about Wednesday, the only thing I couldnt forsee was how we'd go out. As it was we huffed and puffed, scored one of the goals we needed, but never realy looked like getting the other. So what happened? Well my thoughts about Arsenal and the Champions League havn't changed. I still think we've underachieved and I still go back to our first game away to Lens (where we dominated the whole game but conceded a last minute equaliser) as a pivitol reason as to why we've failed to make any impact on the competition. Add the Wembley scenario, our most influential player playing in only 50% of the games, and a phycological effect that only 7 years of failure can bring and its not hard to see why we've failed so dismally in Europes premier Cup competition. Getting back to the game itself we were totally outplayed and trying to find any positives from the game is very difficult. There was though one shining light. One player who's given me hope and that was Phillipe Senderos. Thrust into the biggest game of his life he never let us down, indeed he was absolutely magnificent. He made one mistake, near the end, but I felt that was more to do with tiredness than anything else. He looked composed, his tackling was superb and hisheading ability makes him by far the best header of a ball at the Club, and I include SC23 in that. The biggest compliment I can give him is that he, for me is a TA6 clone in nearly everything he does, and I include the errors TA6 was making at the same age! To really find out if he's this good all the time, or it was a one-off he should stay in the side for the rest of the season, whether Sol comes back or not. If he continues this form its going to be hard to replace him, although that doesnt mean an end to ourdefensive problems as Sol is becoming far more injury prone. As for the rest of the side the only other players to come out with reputations intact were TH14 (as allways), Kolo, Jens and Flamini (who impresses me more and more.I thought PV4 put the effort in but he's simply not the player he once was and its tragic to see. As for everyone else Jose was terrible, as was Freddie. DB10 was not far behind whilst AC3 and Ralph didnt enjoy their best night ever. RP7 and Cesc gave us the attacking impetus we were lacking in the first and deserve no critisism, as neither does RVP who came on too late to make any real impact. As for the '12th' man, ie us, the supporters, it wasnt the best atmosphere I've ever heard, but then the side never realy gave us anything to get excited about as having our first shot after 23 mins testifies to. I was hoping they would come out 'all guns blazing' so as to fire up the crowd, but Bayern simply never let us do it. The goal wastypical TH14 and he deserved it for the work he put in on the night. I sometimes feel really sorry for him and I really hope Arsene buys the players we need to give him a solid defensive platform to perform on. So to finish off wednesday night it was no shock to go out. We were not good enough, again, and now we only have the FA cup to fall back on, and as nice as it would be to win it it still means well have had a bitterly dissapointing season. Infact when thinking about tuesday it says it all that the two high-lights for me occoured outside the 90 mins. At half-time I wondered up to the North Bank upper (where I heard far too many German accents for my liking!) to have a look at the new Stadium, and boy did it look impressive. Rising up with the lights on it looked all but finished in the dark (apart from the other side of the roof of course) and its simply going to be awsome when its completed. The second high-light was seeing TH14 being the last person to walk off the pitch to a chorus of 'Thierry Henry, Thierry Henry'. He's not only possibly our greatest ever player, but quite possibly our most loyal and he fully deserves special little moments like that. Come on Arsenal.

Dormouse
March 13, 2005

Cannon Balls - I agree with what you say about pragmatism and footballers' loyalty. However, Cole meeting Chelski in a public place a few days before the MU game goes rather beyond their need to look for the best deals for themselves. Even the Vieira situations only get going in the summer. I also have doubts about how effective a left back can be as a captain. My real point, though, was not about whether Cole would be OK/great as a captain, but about offering the captaincy as an incentive for staying.

Mee
March 13, 2005

Cannon Balls: There is a difference between wanting Jol to leave, which is my position, and his actual leaving, which is also my position. I desperately hope he leaves, but I don’t expect him to. (Decaf can you sort this out please?)

Dormouse
March 13, 2005

Nico, you are wrong to say that the cost of Reyes is £17m full stop. That is only true in a bean counting world of possibilities where everything must be seen at its gloomiest and assets have a potential value of nil. In footballing terms, a not good Reyes cost £9m (or whatever) and a good Reyes cost £17m. The value of the first is unlikely to drop much below £9m and the value of the second will be rather more than £17m. That is the reason, after all, that the deal was structured in the way that it was.

John
March 13, 2005

Good post Gooner7. Not sure I agree with you but I understand where you are coming from.

Dormouse
March 13, 2005

Nico, you are wrong to say that the cost of Reyes is £17m. That is only true in a bean counting world of possibilities where everything must be seen at its gloomiest and assets have a potential value of nil. In footballing terms, a not good Reyes cost £9m (or whatever) and a good Reyes cost £17m. The value of the first is unlikely to drop much below £9m and the value of the second will be rather more than £17m. That is the reason, after all, that the deal was structured in the way that it was.

Gooner7
March 13, 2005

Mee
March 13, 2005

Cannon Balls; Would you mind directing me to my post that said BM would beat Arsenal 4-1. You have mistaken me for someone else. I have yet to give any score on this forum. I tend to take an overview of most matters rather than specific references to games which are well posted by other people with a greater knowledge than mine.

John
March 13, 2005

Cannon, the fact he is a gooner makes it worse.And Tony Adams did what I said Ash should have done, a quiet word with the media followed no doubt by a pay rise. As for Vieira, I would have been quite happy to let him go last Summer. It's not like he would have been missed from what I've seen this season.

Dormouse
March 13, 2005

Steve Martin and others - I know we need a GK & that Cole might go to Chelski, but I don't understand why we want Carlo. He was a good keeper a few years ago (but so way Lehmann for the most part), but he's not played much for a year & might have got worse. I don't really go for the strategy of passing our 1st choice players to them & getting their second choice players + money in exchange. Fair enough if it is the best we can do, but I would rather hope for better.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

I can't see any reason why AC3 should not be made Captain in the future,the present incumbents not exactly been a paragon of virtue in the loyaty stakes eitherf, and even TA himself expressed interest about playing for Manure. I take a pragmatic view of footballers, even Aresenal ones!, and it is one of that football is their profession, despite who they support or have an affinty with. Judged by his performances for England in Euro 04 - AC3 looks to be Captain material - and would make a great one - and remember he is a gooner!.

John
March 13, 2005

Best moment supporting Aresnal.Michael Thomas at Anfield. I haven't been able to catch a whiff of Southern Comfort since then without been in danger of reliving the time spent kneeling in the bathroom later that same night.Worse moment supporting Arsenal.Nayim from the half way line. I was in Paris that night and the look of stupified horror from the surrounding Gunners was a sight to behold.I haven't been able to catch a whiff of red wine since then without been in danger of reliving the time spent kneeling in the bathroom later that same night.Best non Arsenal football moment.Stuggart 1988. That most green blooded of all Irishmen, Ray Houghton, looping one over Shilton's startled head. I haven't been able to catch a whiff of Guinness since that night without been in danger of reliving the time spent kneeling in the bathroom later that same night.Worse non Arsenal football moment.As that twat Clive Tyldsley would say, and has done on many occasions, Teddy & Olly time.I didn't need any alcohol then but still spent quite a bit of time kneeling in the bathroom later that same night.

Myles Palmer
March 13, 2005

We want Man United in the final ! __________________________BOLTON were the first team to suss out that Arsenal could be bullied.But intimidation didn't work yesterday as Arsenal beat them 1-0 with a third minute goal by Freddie Ljungberg.SENDEROS was magnificent again.Senderos, Clichy, Flamini and Pires were excellent.Vieira was very good too.Bolton followed through in almost every tackle.They were disgusting. Stelios should have been sent off for that tackle on Lauren, who was booked after grabbing the Greek's shirt front while he was on the deck.Steve Bennett got that wrong and also the Pires booking. Pires tried to avoid the tackle, but the guy's knee just caught him.It was a foul, not a dive.DIOUF threw an arm at Lehmann and was sent off after 9 minutes.He is a cowboy who should have been kicked out of English football for spitting last year.There is no place in our national game for people like Diouf.LJUNGBERG, so pitiful against Bayern, came back with a bang - and missed an open goal from two yards at the death.Bobble or no bobble, he was set up perfectly by Pires and should have made it 2-0.But, as we have seen 50 times, first goal Freddie is a big game player - and vital to Arsene's unique style of play.The miss was a 24-carat open goal. To knock the ball up from there, and over the bar, was world class. You have to hand it to the Swede. You won't see another sitter like that for 10 years. While Thierry mostly scores Thierry goals from the left, Freddie mostly scores Freddie goals, just like this one, with runs from right to left.A SEASON where Arsenal don't beat Man United feels a bit weird, so I hope they get United in the final.Not the semi-final.It's always harder for the Nevilles to foul when there are 600 million people watching, right ?IT WILL BE an interesting summer.Arsene has to freshen it up. He knows that. His wannabe players have done well, although Reyes has faded badly since his girlfriend went back to Spain.Would I swap Reyes for Michael Owen?No, because Owen isn't skilful enough to play for Arsenal.Would I sell Ashley to Chelsea for £20 million?Yes, in a flash.Would I retire Dennis?Yes, bless him.If I could sign one English player, who would it be?STEVEN GERRARD !Chelsea do not need him.He would unbalance their team.Stevie G is not wholly similar to Frank, but I would never play that pair in central midfield.Not for England, not for Chelsea.

Steve Martin
March 13, 2005

You just have to face up to facts… 1, if Arsenal get kicked all over the park, United, Bolton, Southampton, Etc! we get the blame, it’s all our fault… 2. If our main rivals are the richest club in the world by having a billionaire and the biggest by size and money, then that’s our fault for not being able to buy players for more than they can… 3. If players are picked up on TV having pushed, kicked, spat Etc at players yet don’t get banned but ours do, then that’s our fault… 4. If a club taps up one of our players, then that also must be our fault, after all Chelsea will get a slapped wrist, Cole will join them in the summer, making it all worth while for Chelsea, the only good thing is us getting Carlo and £15m into the bargain… 5. We have ten shots on Target to Bolton’s 4, 6 corners to their 4, possession 69/31 in our favour, yet they were the top dogs, by the way we won… 6. Their team should have had three players sent off, the plank up front could have gone twice for his blatant fouling, yet he is seen as brave and hard working, yet we all know if one of ours played like that, what the outcome would have been, a letter from the FA asking why our team plays like that and asking two or three of our players to attend Soho Sq, for a chat, donate some money to the FA charity and take a couple of weeks off… Soho Sq, is that not where the prostitutes used to hang out, now it’s just the FA…

Fred
March 13, 2005

I hope we draw Man U at Old Trafford win the game by cheating and then Arsene should do a Mourinho at the end running on to the pitch swinging and punching his arms! or even better still shhh the Man U fans God they deserves it!

John
March 13, 2005

Whatever the outcome of Colegate, Ash still deserves a good kicking for meeting the Chelsea pair in the 1st place. If it was a case of him just wanting to bump up his salary, as some have suggested, a couple of words in the ear of one of the tabloid hacks from his agent would have sufficed. To actually meet them is a kick in the teeth for everybody connected to Arsenal and underserving of the captaincy.

Dormouse
March 13, 2005

Cannon Balls - do you agree with the idea of Cole being made captain? I think the choice of captain is a fundamentally important decision for the team, and can see arguments for appointing Vieira & Cole to the captaincy, but it all looks a bit like something that's given as a reward for not leaving. If a player is not the best choice for the role, I'd rather he was allowed to leave rather than be kept by being made captain.

John
March 13, 2005

Peter Kenyon must be without doubt the most disgusting creature attached to the premier league today. There is no more stomach churning sight than the lifelong Utd fan who morphed into a lifelong Blues fan giving his views on Sky Sports News in that obnoxious public schoolboy accent. Is it just me or does he bear a striking resemblence to William Hague?

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

It looks now that any move to the Chav's that AC3 may have or not have entertained, as been well put aside by the events surounding his illegal meeting with Mourinho and Manc Kenyon. He says they are liars, no! - and that he is going to testify against the pair of arrogant scumbags at the Premier League hearing,denying and proving that he nor his agent instigated the meeting. This agents are like rats scurrying about,but even tey pale into insignificance when compared with Mourinho and Kenyon against whom action should be taken.Six points deducted from Chelsea would make things interesting in the league,and after the cheating, and sinister threats of violence involved in their fortuitious and undeserved win over Barca, a kind of rough justice too.I will not be holding my breath though waiting for anyting to happen ,other than a slap on the wrist. Wenger says that he intends to keep AC3 and to make him Captain in the future, so that's solved the: 'who will take over from 'Paddy' conundrum.

Dormouse
March 13, 2005

Still a lot of discussion about buying a CB; some still believing we need a top CB to partner Campbell, a few suggestions that we may not need to buy at all. The situation has certainly changed since Senderos started to play. I see the situation like this - **** Campbell - a top CB, but not played much this year and not played particularly well when he has (possibly came back without being completely right physically, as AW suggested). Reasonably likely to miss quite a few games every season because of injury from now on. Good partnership with Toure last season; never been totally convinced that he plays that well with Cygan. **** Toure - Good season last year, bad season this year (AW says his confidence is shot, or it may be a second season effect, though this effects defenders less that forwards; might also be having to play too much without Campbell). A lot here think he's not really up to being a top CB; I think there's even less reason to believe he could be at top RB. Very poor partnership with Cygan - the two together now seems a lot less than the the sum of the two parts - but was a good partner for an in-form Campbell last year; hasn't played so badly with Senderos. **** Cygan - had a good season, often being one of our better defenders and sometimes MOTM. Good partnership with Senderos, bad partnership with Toure, unconvinced by his partnership with Campbell. I think he has done very well this season for a reserve without pretensions to being a first choice CB. **** Senderos - a revelation since he started to play. Played very well himself and seems to radiate a calmness and stability to the rest of the defence, which is quite incredible given his age and that none of our other CBs have been able to do this. Good partnership with Cygan, partnership with Toure seems promising & we don't know about Campbell. We can't be sure he can keep this level of performance up, and I wouldn't want him to play every game at his age; but his performance is completely different to Toure's last season in that he has done very well as the lead CB in big games, against good teams and against cloggers and against teams good in the air. I agree with those who see him as a future captain. For my money, he should now be seen as our No 1 CB, unless and until his performances prove otherwise. **** This leaves Campbell as No 2; Toure with a lot to do to prove he should be No 3, or even to prove he has a place in our team as a CB; and Cygan as a very good reserve. Given the injury risk with Campbell & the uncertainty about how many games Senderos can play, I think we still need to buy another CB; I really don't want to risk having to play Toure and Cygan together again. We could buy a proven top CB, who could help Senderos develop further - but that would move Campbell to No 3, which he probably would not accept. There are enough games for all 3 to play, so it might be possible for all 3 to think they are the real first choice for a while. Alternatively, we could go for the best quality CB we could get who would be prepared only to play in those games that Campbell & Senderos do not start. I'd expect Campbell to miss 15 - 20 and Senderos to miss 10 - 15, so it might be possible especially if that someone has the confidence to think that they would displace Campbell or Senderos. Hoyte and Djourou need more time to develop.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Yes i remember when 'Big Jack' was manager of Ireland making friends and influencing people, and his 'Irish' side were kicking opponents off the park and playing foreign players disguised as Irishman. There was a similiar scenario in the press in England then too. Also even Chelsea the most mercenary club in the land have tried to get in on the patriotic act Mourinho claiming that they are more English than Arsenal!. And the odoius Manc Kenyon that they are the club that people think of when London football comes to mind !. Football? - what football?.

John
March 13, 2005

It is obvious to me why Bolton got so much credit after the game yesterday for bravely trying to kick the s*** out of us. Fat Sam "I'm an unnappreciated genius" Allardyce is English. Forget the fact that 3/4's of his team is made up of foreign mercenaries.Imagine the ridicule Wenger would have faced if the positions were reversed and Wenger had came out with that rubbish after the game. I would love to see Allardyce get the job of England manager in the future. Even the Graham Taylor reign would be looked on with fondness after a few months of Sam's genius.

Dive Dive Dive
March 13, 2005

I am now passed the point of embarrassment with Viera diving and trying to get players booked by feining injury. Yesterday he pretended he was caught in the face when he clearly wasn't. The Liverpool game he dived shamlessly and every time we play ManU he seems to spend more time on his arse than in the fight. We've come to expect it from Pires, but when Viera got sent off against ManU last year and he accused Horseface of over-reacting it's a bit hypocritcal. He constantly goes on about his admiration for Keane in interviews that liken them both to gladiators, but I don't remember him rolling around to often. Paddy, please stop diving and bitching to the ref all game.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Oh dear, Mee, so you 'kinda wanted Jol to leave the lane that time forgot', strange that one, because you were posting on here saying how he was not leaving, and i was talking rubbish - and was afraid of what he might do with mighty Spuds!!!. Lay of off the drink Mee, your statements about Cesc, Jol, and prediciting a 4-1 win for Bayern Munich , Bolton to beat us, etc, are becoming more stupid than your jokes.

Gordoy
March 13, 2005

Bolton are not the only team to continually foul the opposition. Continental teams cynically take it in turns to stop the flow of games. How about if after 4 individual yellow cards the 5th player gets sent off. I think this would make the teams think a bit more before committing these cynical fouls.

kiwipete in GoveJust
March 13, 2005

Good bounce back from the Munchen disappointment. Can't have any real bitch about that game never really looked like getting the neccessary. Just had the pleasure of sitting thru cyclone Ingrid lashing rain,thunder and winds of 260 kms bit of an adventure.

Gooner7
March 13, 2005

Sam lacks class, and it does not matter what he says or thinks of the defeat. It's more important that we keep our heads high, and with class. PTBAG

Bernard
March 13, 2005

Mee, I fully agree that it's a risky business trusting a player's perceived passion for a club. I never said he was passionate for Arsenal, neither did I say it was the only requirement for a successful captain. If I remember correctly, it was someone else who said something about passion, and I just commented that you might disagree with whatever he said (just to be a bit lighthearted). I certainly didn't agree with it myself. But can I ask one question? If you really think it's such a risky business trusting a player's passion for a club (and by the way, so do I), why do you seem to trust Fabregas' passion for Barcalona to say quite conclusively that he will leave Arsenal to join them in the next two years (unless I've totally misremembered what you said)? If he was so passionate about them in the first place, why did he walk out on them to join a foreign club practically as soon as he got the chance, and then subsequently sign a very long term contract with said club that will automatically mean Barcalona will have to pay a very big transfer fee if they want to get him back in the next two years. Because that doesn't sound like being too passionate towards Barcalona to me, which is why all along I've thought your comments on this issue just haven't made any sense at all. I've tried to say all along that: 1) one day he might rejoin Barcalona (and have many times). But I've also said many times that 2) he might not. It's you that's said the firm statement that only 1) will happen, and I can't see any evidence why you should think that so strongly.

Brett
March 13, 2005

I see ex-gooner Rami Shaaban has let in 5 for Brighton today!

Mee
March 13, 2005

I was kind of hoping that Jol would leave the‘lane that time forgot’ and Arnesen would bring in someone with deep tactical awareness like Peter Reid. I’m sure David Pleat would be on hand to offer his services, and what about the original chocolate man, so good he ate himself . . .

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Bad news;http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=262302&cpid=8&CLID=6&lid=&title=Jol+close+to+new+deal&channel=Premiership

Niall
March 13, 2005

Apols to the end of that post, that was a train of thought I hadn't finished and had left at the bottom of the post page!!

Niall
March 13, 2005

Nico, isn't saying it's not your job to say who Wenger could have signed just a teeny weeny bit of a cop out mate? If you look at almost every player we are being linked with in the press (and although they could be wrong it's our only inclination of who Arsenal targets might be) almost to a man (bar SWP and they would not have sold at that stage imo) they would have been cup tied for the ECL. In my opinion, even as early as January we had lost the championship as Chelsea have been far far too good this season (record wise, we're all aware they have had a slice of luck) and any Wenger signing might have been made at the wrong time. Not many top coaches buy big in January and Wenger is right to say he couldn't have forseen Campbell would be out again, that Edu would succomb to futher injury. Ferguson panicked last season and blew £12m on the injury prone Saha and where has it got him? No-where fast. I realise your point is more about who is right in how much money did we have aspect, the board or Wenger. It is confusing mate and I'm not sure it is clear. As I pointed out last night, even if for the sake of argument £10m was available to Wenger, is the board actually going to pay a substantial wage to any incoming signing? This is questionable but Wenger has said that money is available previously but that he would only buy "a jewel." Now did he just overestimated our squad's depth and talent but with the Cole scenario and Edu rumbles, the boards salary policy is in question and always has been historically. So I'm not sure. What I will say is that the board deserves credit for its risks on the stadium and forward thinking. The deserve credit for backing Wenger up to now in the market. They deserve credit for taking us on after 1995 to a new level. But Wenger deserves the repsect to make the team decisions and I agree with him that there was a lack of quality around in January and although he would never say it publically, privately maybe he knew it was already over. Lets go to the summer with renewed optimism. BTW if Arsenal draw man U in the semis, you will all be pleased to hear that I won't be making the trip. So we may win this year year!!Wenger (despite DaveM's ridiculous points about youth) has stated that management made a policy decision to go with youth while the stadium was being sorted. The board on the other hand state, there has always been money available for the team. The signing of Reyes seems to indicate that is true and

DHD
March 13, 2005

Bernard - I'd also guess its against the rules to field a team of sh*t-kicking cockroaches. Rot their eyes.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

American,yes i go along with that,i just hope that we have our main players fit .I would for the maximum pyschological advantage prefer to play and beat them in the final in Cardiff. We started off this season beating them there in the CS which they were the holders of, so it would be nice to take the FAC off of them there too!.

AmericanGooner
March 13, 2005

I want Man Yoo in the competition. Only way to get rid of your demons is to face them head on. 'win/win' for us in a strange way I think. If we win, we can go into next season without any fear of them. If we lose, it may make it easier for Wenger to make some hard decisions that he should. I rue the day when Arsenal feels it has to avoid any club in England. Even Europe for that matter. Bring them on! If we bottle it, then we do, and we weed out the 'passengers' or buy what we need in the summer.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Yes, Mee, trusting a players passion for the club can be risky. Or a Managers ?. I wonder who the next incumbent will be at Spuds that is going to bring back the glory days to the lane that time forgot. It must be a sickner for Spuds seeing Chelsea at the top of the table and knowing that if only their club had a better profile it could have been them!. Oh dear me !!!.

Martin Jol
March 13, 2005

I know your upset Phil with me leaving on a jet plane to Ajax but thre is no need to write of your clubs chances and to start supporting red-nose again. No wonder the clubs not won anything since the days of yore with supporters like you around. Try not to drink so much you might feel better and stop imagining that your some one else,or two, or three......

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Whatever the outcome of the AC3 saga is, the full truth concerning the incident is clouded with lies. Mourinho no surprise being the biggest culprit involved. Damage limitation now seems to be the main aim of all concerned. Was Coles agent setting up the meeting to use it in his negotiations on behalf of AC3, were Chelsea really interested in signing Cole, or just in causing problems in our squad ?. The leaking of the meeting a couple of days prior to the United match at Highbury was suspicious, and a similar thing occurred just before Chelsea played Spuds at the Lane involving Defoe. Mourinho now says that Chelsea are not interested in signing Cole, but who knows if that's true. Whatever in Clichy we have the replacement already in place. So it is not a big problem. Dave M your views on Wenger and his reluctance to drop out of form players is interesting , but rather contentious, although you state it to be a fact, Wiltord, Kanu, Jeffers, Wright and others were dropped after poor performances, Lehman and Almunia have been exchanging places like a game of pass the parcel at a birthday party for months. Even Henrys been on the subs bench in the past, Ljungberg, Pires and others too. Cygan will not i am sure be causing any sleeples nights to Wenger by him worrying about dropping him in favour of Senderos, Cygan must be 4th choice CB. On tactics against United i would guess that will depend on when or if we meet them. Who is available also, we certainly need to defend better than that last game when for long periods we out played them. We can beat them anyway and our players know that, but it's on the day.We are due a result and we did beat them in the CS in Cardiff at the start of the season 3-1.

AmericanGooner
March 13, 2005

One of my big hopes for the remainder of the season, no matter what is for Reyes to score some goals. I don't want him going into the summer with the present state of mind and present form. While I don't think we'll lose him to a transfer in the summer, if clubs do approach, his present form and mind state will make it easier to leave. I still think he has a future and if he doesn't have one, this season is much too early determine that. At best its inconclusive at present. The potential is there. **** If someone read the match report only they would think that we were as bad as Bolton. They had 5 bookings and we had 4. Fat Sam's reason to hate is pure jealousy. The only 'not shaking hands' story I've ever heard of is about Fergie. Sam knows as well as everyone else that we didn't spend millions. When the all foreign XI issue was in the press, he was the biggest hypocrite. He fielded 7 of 11 foreigners in the same weekend but said he had no choice because of his miniscule funds but still hinted at that its an issue that we fielded 4 more than him. Hypocrite of the highest order. His biggest signing recently is who? Diouf. Not some talented English player. His highest paid player is who? Okocho. Highest in Bolton's history (i think its 48k/week). Not any English player. He doesn't like us for whatever reason (jealousy is my guess) and has his players kick us to death. I hate the fat b*****d.

Mee
March 13, 2005

Bernard: Trusting a players perceived passion for the club can be a risky business, ask Ashley Cole, and passion per se isn’t the only requirement for a successful captain. I agree with everybody about Mark Bright’s commentary. Even in his calmer moments he sounds like a man whose trousers are on fire. What is mystifying is that a person professing such profound tactical knowledge should have shown so little awareness of it during his playing days. I think it must have been a rather sad day for Bolton supporters. In the past the physical elements of their game have been tempered with passages of skill and technique. Their performance today was a ugly celebration of intimidation, foul play and downright thuggery which offered a perfect reflection of their managers interpretation of the game. Players like the now departed Djorkieff, and even Okocha and Hierro must wonder exactly what they have become involved with. This was a performance that even an old Bolton stalwart like Nat Lofthouse, himself no stranger to the rougher side of the game, must have been ashamed of. I thought Senderos, in particular and all of the defence were quite magnificent in dealing with this constant aerial bombardement. Bolton brought shame on themselves and the game of football today. Allardyce needs to re-aquaint himself with film of the marvellous Hungarian team of the 1950’s to see just how removed his vision of football is from the way it should be played.

AmericanGooner
March 13, 2005

I also don't want to see Freddie going. I would like to see some competition at his position. SWP would be a good addition. In some of the scrappy games like this Freddie is useful. He is tough and won't be bullied. There are some games where someone with more pace and dribbling ability is better. Other than Bobby, who won't be around after 2 more years, we need an alternative. Ralph isn't it. He's a stop gap at best. Pennant had promise, maybe its Bentley, I would rather see Quincy in that position. He has the skills Freddie lacks. I like Freddie though and his biggest asset is his working relationship with Henry, Pires and Bergkamp that only comes from playing together for a number of years. He knows exactly how to time his runs with them and that is a huge asset of which we saw its dividends in this game.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Martin.You are definately going out tomorrow but i dont want to face manure in the semis or final because i dont want to give the red nose drunken jock the satisfaction of getting another one over again this season.Theres only so much disappointment i can take in after the season we ve had so id rather go out in the semis to newcastle.Bernard.Do you think Wenger should deploy new tactics and get 4 players off when things are going against us hoping for replays ?

AmericanGooner
March 13, 2005

Clive, unfortunately a 4-5-1 would do more harm than good. Its not our game and we're not comfortable playing that way and with the way we defend set pieces we'd end up giving up a couple goals. The only time I've ever seen us successfully play a defensive game with not too much effort to score was the 0-0 handbags game at OT. We should play our game or basically the game we're most comfortable with. Free flowing, attacking, one touch football. **** Without Ash we have no cover for LB with only Clichy there. There are a few positions we have cover but one of them is not LB. I want Ash to stay. I think they can even play at the same time as evidenced by Ash playing wing and they were interchanging well. It is an option in some games. Lets do everything we can to keep Ash, I don't like talk of him being sold. You don't sell a player who is the best in the world at his position.

Bernard
March 13, 2005

DHD, I think you'll find that if a team falls below eight men either through sending offs or injuries, the game is immediately called off. Considering we won, if I'm right it's a good job they didn't have four men sent off to go down to seven players. Wouldn't fancy the game having to be replayed, as I don't suppose Bolton would be willing to pull out of any such replay to let Arsenal go through.

DHD
March 13, 2005

You'd like to know that today's tickets were £20 - that's about half what we'd expect on our travels. But at £20 a game, Bolton are amazingly and vastly overpriced. Hardly surprising they will never fill that stadium. We had an pre-dawn start and almost 500 miles of a trip as an excuse. The good burghers of Bolton have no excuse other than the kackest kickingest k**tiest team in kristendom. Malice on them.

Martin Jol
March 13, 2005

No Phil i am with Tottenham what are going on about have you been drinking again?

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Gael Clichey made some great runs going forward and is defending just as good as Ashley Cole if not better.If the stories are true that he was the one who went begging to chelsea for a move i would be glad to see the back of him if the price was right.The bad news after a good win today is that the mancs look like they are going to win the FAC.

DHD
March 13, 2005

Well having finally got out of the bloody carpark, I can brush off the dust of that freezing toss-pot town and its team of sh*t-kickers. Who the hell would pay to watch that bunch? It was like watching a team from the ‘60’s. And what do I know about FL8 & PV4? They both played surprisingly well today although FL8 missed one that made Kanu’s look difficult. Thankfully we could laugh at it by then. On the other hand, JAR looked like a little boy lost – he had a bit of mare and DB10 wasn’t too far behind. What the hell JAR (and the rest of our cloggers) got booked, for I shall have to wait to be told. How did they not finish with 7 men? Another strong performance from Senderos and for a change Kolo looked OK against sh*t-kicker-in-chief Davies. No substitutions, somewhat unusually. I hope fat Sam Lardyarce gets crabs and passes them to old red nose’s eyebrows

clock end clive
March 13, 2005

If or should i say when we are drawn to play United in the Cup I think Arsene should give them some of their own medicine - a 4-5-1 that makes them work their bollox off for a change. I would back our midfield guys to be fitter so let us draw them on and hit on the break. I would go Lehmann; Ralph; Senderos; Toure; Clichy/Cole; Freddie; Flamini; Paddy; Cesc; Bob; Thierry. Hold Dennis and Jose back for later in the game. Of course Arsene would never do such a thing as he believes in forcing his game on his opponents.

DaveM
March 13, 2005

And he won't do it because he doesn't like making difficult selection decisions. Strangely he did it with the keepers when he shouldn't have, but when push comes to shove Cole will play instead of Clichy (if Wenger wants Cole to be Captain, which he said today, does that means he converting him to left midfield, or that he's resigned to selling Clichy?), and Edu instead of Cesc (which in my view cost us the game at OT). Even at CB, where our best partnership is obviously going to be Campbell and Senderos he must be dreading dropping Cygan and Toure.

Nico
March 13, 2005

chocco, it's really absurd. I don't know who you are and all of a sudden I care what you say. Incredible. Listen. I did not say Reyes cost £22m. Get your facts right. I said the Reyes transfer fee has to be booked at £17m in the official statements of the Club - you know, the ones which started with the declaration to OFEX, claiming 15m Euro's to start with and 10m to follow. Now if he does really well, that's what we'll spend, and I'll be more delighted than anyone. If he does badly, you could consider it a waste (to some extent) of money, just like any transfer that doesn't succeed. The jury is out on Jose, his correct position in the side, his integration with the club, his relationship with other players, etc. He's young, Spanish and will take time to settle. I'm not personally convinced it will all work out, but I hope it will. I must say I enjoyed him today, he seemed to be getting his zest back, but this may be cos Henry was missing. And was today enough for us all to say things may be looking up? I don't know, and I don't think so. But I'll give him as much time as I can, which is more than I've given so far, you'll be pleased to hear. The cost, though, is £17m, let me please repeat. That is the money budgeted/earmarked/booked for his fee. That is the prudent way to report to shareholders and dem's de rules. Ok, it's not in all in the cashflow statements or the Profit and Loss, but it will be in the Balance Sheet. On to Henry's role in this. Not so long ago, I overheard a conversation between an important Arsenal official and an agent in a restaurant. They were talking feverishly about the best kind of partner for Henry in attack. Various players were being discussed, but they kept ruling them out one after the other. What I'm saying is that it's very very hard to find the best partner for the bloke, as has been shown through constant trial (and some error, I'm afraid). Wiltord? Jeffers? Now Reyes? The first two failed, and the third? Let's hope, but I have my doubts. He often goes on about how great it is to be working with Bergkamp. Oh dear, well Dennis is now 35, and no-one has yet successfully replaced him, and you know what? It may not be possible to do so. I'm sure Henry would love to see Reyes working out as well. But there is quite a chance it won't and then we'll be wishing Jose can replace Pires....or do what? Anyway, here's hoping it will all work out. Now on to the story Wenger had £9m in the window to spend; you found this in a paper, didn't you? Bah humbug, mate, unless you heard it from an official statement. Don't believe the papers, you know that much surely by now, especially since you're always asking how I know things. I know things cos I don't read the papers and get taken in by them. I know things cos I research them, I need to as I've a bit riding on it all going well. Arsenal have a huge borrowing facility, and £17m cash in the bank as at the interim stage (Novemebr), plus £30m from Granada which has just been banked, plus something referred to as 'contingent equity' which someone who attended the AGM told me about (not sure what it's all about, this, but if we get it, it amounts to a further £10m), plus another Emirates payment due this month as well of £9m. Maybe that's the sum that's being thought of in your story, the Emirates payment, but there's a whole lot more besides, as I keep saying. Anyway I'm glad you realise it ain't the board that's to blame for the transfers and non-transfers. And as they are not responsible, someone else IS and that's as it should be and that someone is a certain Arsene Wenger. Transfers are his domain, they are his decisions, and as such he must carry the can as well as take the praise for them, pure and simple. He's a big boy on a very good salary and to be worth every penny he must be honest as well about himself - he can't hide behind the board and I'm very glad that he's made the position clear once and for all.

DaveM
March 13, 2005

'Big Sam' (apparently his favourite way of describing himself) hates Wenger. It's supposed to date from several years ago when Wenger didn't shake hands with him. Sides will play like that against us though until we show it doesn't work. To return to my earlier point, Wenger's ideal squad is about 16 'senior' pros, and about 8 talented young players. The young players come in when the others aren't available. There's little competition, which is why I can't see us having two players for each position. If Ljungberg stays he'll play, and I think we'll all agreed that the way we play in Europe (and Ljungberg and Bergkamp are the key players in the style we have) isn't good enough. We need a right-sided midfielder who can actually go outside the lb and put crosses in. If older players don't play some reserve team football then they won't play at-all. This is why Wenger won't make the 'senior' squad much bigger. The young players will tolerate being sent back to the reserves. Wenger has said Bentley has 'outstanding technical ability' (Ljungberg doesn't). He's at least as quick as Freddie, and he's stronger. Bentley is also Wenger's idea type of understudy - a young player who he can easily drop. SWP would be our record signing and would have to play. This is why I don't think we'll sign him. Is there anyone on this forum who thinks a front six of Ljungberg, Gilberto, Vieira, Reyes, Bergkamp, Henry will beat the current ManU side? They won't need to flood midfield - they'll take us on man for man because we only have Vieira who will win possession back. We could put out a front six who'd win, but Wenger won't do it.

Bored
March 13, 2005

Highlight of the game was Lauren grabbing Stelios(?) by the shirt and looking like he was going to dish out some justice. I thought Arsenal made hard work of the game but Bolton's tactics were really sad....

goonerguru
March 13, 2005

I have just heard Alan Hanson and LeSaux say that the sending off was all Lehmann's fault,I just dont beleve it,I don't bloody believe it as Victor Meldrew would say.

old man of bolton
March 13, 2005

This one for Sam and his poor hard-done by team.One day, whilst Ira Levine was out shopping in Brent Cross, he noticed an old man sitting on a bench sobbing his eyes out. Ira stopped and asked him what was wrong. The old man said, "I have a beautiful young wife at home. She makes love to me every morning and then gets up and makes me pancakes, sausage, fresh fruit and freshly ground coffee." Ira said, "Well, then why are you crying?" The old man continued, "She makes me homemade soup for lunch and my favorite cake and then makes love to me for half the afternoon". Ira asked again, "Well, then, why would you be so sad?" The old man continued, "And for dinner she makes me a gourmet meal with wine and my favorite dessert and then makes love to me until 2 o’clock in the morning. Exasperated, Ira yells, " Why in the world would you be crying?" "Ah!" the old man replied, "I can't remember where I live!"

AmericanGooner
March 13, 2005

Echoing what has already been said and venting as well. Fat Sam's does what he does because it works. Just like Fergie. Also, and this is only a guess on my part, is that he personally doesn't like Wenger. I've heard him interviewed and he never gives us credit and after a loss to other managers, is usually a gentleman and either says they did a good job or his side just didn't have it that day. Can't say I have ever recalled him saying that about us. He has always publicly praised Fergie and they are friends. Has anyone ever recalled him praising us? He won't stop his tactics because, frankly, it works. He's allowed to 'thug it up' with us and he has taken points off us doing it and until the referees stop him there is nothing we can do about it. Its the cold hard truth of the matter. He and Fergie whisper it to other managers that "Arsenal don't like it up in 'em". Not blaming ourselves, but we don't help the situation when more than a few of our players go down easy. We weren't doing that this game, but it does play in the referees and other clubs minds as well. Like most of you, I wondered how Stelios and Davies stayed on the pitch. The ref was loathed to reduce Bolton to 9 men after Diouf. Had Diouf stayed on he may have felt he could send one of them off. I recall the '03 season when we were up 2-0 and they were kicking us off the pitch. We had 2 players injured and couldn't leave the pitch without assistance and the referee didn't give Bolton their first yellow till I think the 85th or 86th minute. It was thoroughly disgusting and I have hated Fat Sam ever since. The worst of it was the game cost us the title. The game was pivotal and the referee 'lost the plot' as you guys say. Another thing that makes it easy to go against us I think is our large foreign contingent. Although we could have played better, I am proud of them because it came after being knocked out of the CL, no Henry or Sol, and Bolton, who has been a bogeman team to the top of the league teams for a couple years now, were in the best form they have ever been and we beat them at home. F Lee Bailey...F Scott Fitzgerald, F Murray Abrams and F Sam Allardyce!!!

Bernard
March 13, 2005

Clive (presumably not the Clock End one), in the past I've praised Bentley's technical ability which is at a very high level. And if you can't see that then maybe you're the muppet. I've never called him the best thing since sliced bread as I think he lacks pace and body strength, and have said so many times. And when Owen doesn't score, what else that's particularly meaningful does he provide; creating chances for others maybe like Bergkamp in his heyday? Err, not I've never noticed him do that to be honest. So what else do you think he contributes when he doesn't score?

goonerguru
March 13, 2005

DaveM can't agree about the kids being in the reserves,I am more or less certain that most if not all Premier sides play a lot of youngsters in their reserve sides,long gone are the days when reserve sides were choc a bloc with old pro's and ageing first teamers.Agree though about Gilberto I don't feel he will make any great difference to us when he comes back to play apart from a bit more height to help out the defence.I think Edu will go,lets say I hope so,he has a very poor record for injuries,good player that he is,I'm afraid he is injury prone or very unlucky either way he is no good to the team when he is not playing.Reyes I think will go,but I don't want to give up on him yet,DB10 I feel will get another season but play less and less and I hope we don't sign SWP.

chocolate gooner
March 13, 2005

What a great win! I have to agree with most of what has been said. If you’re looking for a reason why English teams perform poorly in the champions league… you had one of the more obvious ones in the way Bolton chose to play the game and also the way Steve Bennet chose to referee it. Bolton made no attempt to hide the fact that they wanted to kick us off the pitch and Bennet didn’t have the guts to do anything about it. The referee’s job is to apply the rules and this guy completely failed to do his job. I’m sorry but those fans that are talking about “passing sides to death” couldn’t have been watching the same game I was watching. Studs up tackles, tackles from behind, jumping into our players, backing into our players…. All these things are against the rules and all these things and more Bolton did, time and again. how the hell are going to get any sort of consistent passing going when you’re opponents are dangerously flying into tackles and disrupting us on the break. I think we did well to keep our composure especially as we had quite a few youngsters out on the pitch. The BBC commentary is now starting to do my head in. Mark Bright must be the dimmest co-commentator on planet Earth. Has that guy ever said anything insightful, informative or even just funny on telly. What a twerp! Anyways enough about Mediocre has-been and unto some true stars of the future… Clichy is pure CLASS. He isn’t the finished article yet but the more I see of him the more I like the guy. Senderos is looking the business. In the air and on the ground he just looks the real deal. Again I hope that fans don’t rush unto the forum if he has one or even a couple of bad and start yelping… he’ll need time. Flamini did some good things but he must have been wondering how he ended up at a Rugby match!! The guy didn’t flinch despite the pure physical intimidation that Bolton chose as a tactic. Also his turn and pass which set up a chance in the first half shows that those who think that he is merely a Parlour MKII are underestimating him. but I have to admit that it wasn’t his best match. But it feels good to get one over on Slobbering Sam and his gang of thugs. and Could someone tell me why Stelios kicking Clichy is dubbed brave? If Davies can't play football against some like Senderos what is the point of the BBC praising Bolton's attitude? Cheers all. … … … … … … Dave M… you don't half talk rot. Cheers.

Déjà Vu
March 13, 2005

Always leaving Riley out of the equation, is there a more impotent referee than Bennett or a more appalling commentator than Bright? The ineffable reporting on the incomprehensible.

DaveM
March 13, 2005

Niall, quite right. Ljungberg scoring is actually annoying. He will win games like that, but we'll never move up to the top level whilst he is in the side. Ultimately his success is at the expense of the team.

DaveM
March 13, 2005

Niall, I just can't see Wenger wanting a squad that big. He really isn't one for tough decisions. If he had Ljungberg and SWP then it seems likely that SWP would establish himself in the team. This means Wenger leaving Ljungberg on the bench or occasionally in the reserves. I just don't think he'll do that. The same is true in other positions. Our reserve side is basically an U-19 team. Wenger won't send experienced players there except whilst they recuperate. One of the advantages of having good young players is you can drop them more easily than older ones. Wenger won't make the tough calls, and I don't think Ljungberg would put up with being left on the bench. We'll either buy SWP and sell Ljungberg or, more likely I'm sad to say, not buy SWP and keep Freddie. We'll buy the same number of players we release. Wenger likes Cygan and we're not going to get a better CB who is unlikely to play. We can hardly say to them "we expect Campbell to miss 20 games a season, so you'll probably get plenty of games". I think Pires will go, and Edu. Lauren could be sold without needing to buy a replacement, but it would be odd to do so 6 months after signing him up so I think he'll stay. Cole may, and Reyes may, but I doubt we'll lose both of them. Lehmann may be sold. Therefore I think we're looking at no more than 3 out-field players (none of whom are defenders) and a goalkeeper. In a way the players we buy aren't as important as the tactics and Wenger's selection philosophy -and today's game didn't fill me with hope that either will change. On Gilberto I think central midfielders should grab games that are going against you (Keane in Juve is the ultimate example). Gilberto will never do that. As for the right-sided example, the important points are that he wasn't good enough to hold his position in the team (Edu and Vieira displaced him), but that Wenger would rather play him somewhere he's not suited to than make a tough call and leave him out. I'd much rather offer Edu more and sell Gilberto.

Niall
March 13, 2005

No offence DaveM but your postings are the best laugh i get on here, apart from true Arsenal boy who came up with a good un today. Ljungberg yet again, oh dear, what a conundrum cos he's a match winner so regularly and at the end of the day, we want to win games. Senderos yet again excellent, Lehmann as well to be fair, also disagree with the guy who slated Flamini, though he had a very good game in midfield. All Bolton had was a set piece threat as expected, so credit to the lads on the defensive performance, although as Pearce and Bright pointed out, they did drop very deep at times which almost cost us. Wasn't impressed with how many times that wee git Giannokolous (sp) got headers away though considering he's possibly get into a Leprecnaun XI. Vieira - again massive as he has been for the past month, the Bayern game obviously very difficult for him when pressed so hard by quality like Ballack. He's got to stay as he is class at the end of the day. Bergkamp was poor and Reyes didn't have a great game bar maybe the last 10 when he held it up better and had a few runs at the defence. As Goonerguru said, perhaps he should be cut some slack but he's got to preove his heart is in it for us and it looked that way today.

Richie
March 13, 2005

Seen the post match interview with Allardyce. Typically blaming Lehmann in helping Diouf getting sent off. Then moaning about the challenge from Dennis that lead to the goal. I don't care because we won and there's nothing you can do about it, so spout all the rubbish you like Mr Allardyce. He really thought that Bolton were going to win which makes it all the more sweeter. Giving it the poor little Bolton and the millions we spent like it's so unfair.

James - Copenhagen
March 13, 2005

SKY: "Bolton showed their lion spirit in dominating possession throughout": Opta Stats: Bolton 31.2% possession, same article!

US Martin
March 13, 2005

Exactly - the way Bennett, Fat Sam might as well have had Diouf get himself sent off - it probably did more for their them tactically than it didn't. The first incident on Lauren should have seen RED for three or four different reasons. It was a straight red for a tackle from behind. The nastiness of it too could well have deserved a straight red. I mean so do what English refs do and show yellow only. He's still off. It was late - again the second yellow. It was rash - second Yellow. And it was hard to tell but looked studs-up again - second yellow. Steve Bennett ought to publicly apologize to Lauren for allowing that to go on at all, let alone unpunished. The irony is, this is why English teams fail in Europe, and the England NT crash consistently. They believe this is how everyone plays football, and they end up hammered by the non-English refs. The foreign players at least understand how the game is played outside England and how to play it outside England.The FA and its refs undermine English Football beyond its sure more than anyone else...

Steve Martin
March 13, 2005

Thye say that Refs do not influence games, well the news is they do... Bennett sent off El Haj and did not send of two further players as he did not have the bottle to take Bolton down to 9, even 8 men... The rules of the game are quite clear and he did not apply them... How are we ever going to get rid of that part of the game, when the BBC to a man praise the Bolton Tactics, after all, in the main, Bolton were kicking kids about...

DaveM
March 13, 2005

Oh yeah, it was really annoying that the commentators were saying things like 'That Bolton player will have to watch it now, because he's on a yellow'. Yeah, right. It would have been virtually impossible to get sent off because refs hate reducing sides to 9. Bolton weren't playing football today, and they were allowed to get a way with it. And what was going on with that Pires yellow? That was a foul, but the ref took the easy way out. But hey, we won.

James - Copenhagen
March 13, 2005

BBC: It was a passionate and engaging Cup tie, with Kevin Davies symbolic of Bolton's energy = PERSISTANT FOULING in my book, how he stayed on defies belief

Brett
March 13, 2005

Pretty much everything has been siad so far: Bolton's Thuggery, another clean clean, Flamini - not one to remember (Still would've picked him ahead of Fabregas cos of Fat Sam's physical approach). Senderos was good again today, Freddie got a classy goal - don't care about the sitter cos we won. Toure improved in the 2nd half. Has Bergkamp woken up after his hibernation yet? Oh yeah, We beat Sam. YEAH! WE BEAT SAM! HEY SAM, YOU GOT STUFFED!!!!! NOW GO F*** YOURSELF!!!! That'll teach you for standing by cheaters and not playing football like of of the others do.

US Martin
March 13, 2005

English referees are the WORST in the WORLD - there is no other way to say it. Stelios is on a Yellow goes in late on Lauren after he or another one of their thugs on a yellow went in late from behind, and cynically seconds earlier, and Bennett shows nothing to either and wonders why Lauren is grabbing the shirt. That is a yellow fine, but if you won't control the games and protect the players the players have to. That they have to is down again to referees and common sense. Yes, common sense says sending off any more Bolton players kills off the game, but it also protects their opponents from unnecessary injury that day and in the future. English referees should be denied the privelege of refereeing non-domestic football until the learn to referee properly. It may be hard on Bolton to go down two or three men, but the rules are the rules and they can choose to play within them as well or face the consequences. They don't have to try and injure opponents or show reckless disregard for their opponents. Lauren's reaction was down to Bennett's irresponsiblity. I saw him actually embrace Hierro when they took him off. How many players embrace OPPOSING players mid-match? But the articles will report how explosive angry Lauren is and how he let Bolton's spirit get under his skin. No English referee deserves the honor or privelege of refereeing beyond his borders with the possible of Mr.(no longer barge)Poll, and his credentials are still less-than-certain...

US Martin
March 13, 2005

DaveM
March 13, 2005

Today was a classic exmaple of what a conservative manger Wenger is when it comes to selection. I've said for years he has an incredibly clear hierarchy of players in his mind, and it is virtually impossible to change that. Under pressure he turns to his most experienced players (if Cole had been fit he'd have played), but they are the reason he's under pressure. When we were throwing the league away before Christmas against poor sides, the same players played game in, game out. This is despite the fact they weren't performing, and we had an u-21 side that was beating Premiership sides. He is loyal to a fault. We made a hash of the second half, again failing to get two goals clear, and it wouldn't have surprised anyone if Bolton had equalised. Why no substitutes? Against 11 I think we would have lost. Wenger would never, ever, leave an experienced player on the bench, let alone out of the squad, for a younger player. It's very annoying. If Pires, Ljungberg and Bergkamp are still at the club next season then they will still be in the team, or at least on the bench. Under those circumstances, we may as well not bother entering the CL. The main satisfaction left this season would be beating ManU, but the way things are going the front 6 in that game will be Ljungberg, Gilberto, Vieira, Pires/Reyes, Bergkamp, Henry. That is nothing like our strongest front six, it won't be able to control midfield, and ManU will in the end win quite comfortably. The best things about today were: beating 'Big Sam', keeping our forth clean sheet in a row, and Reyes coping much better with the physical side of the game. Ljungberg did what he does (scored and then largely disappeared), Vieira had a good first half, Bergkamp messed up virtually every touch. Clichy needs to work on positioning during set pieces. It's good the season is still alive, but it doesn't cover up the fact Wenger needs to change his tactics (no more 'free man' on the right of midfield, and replace Bergkamp. I'd rather have Owen than Ljungberg, because having a player who does nothing but score up front is less damaging to the rest of the side than having one in midfield) and his attitudes to selection (don't pick based on seniority) if we're to win the Premiership or the CL next year.

Jimmy
March 13, 2005

Flamimi was piss poor today. Reyes showed some improvement over his last few games. Fat Sam should be hauled before the F.A. and held accountable for his team's thuggery.

david.d
March 13, 2005

that was a sweet sweet sweet victory. bolton are an absoloute disgrace and this was a win that was long overdue. diouf did us a favour by getting himself sent off but who cares. we are through and we have beaten the worst team of cloggers since man utd. what a lovely finish by freddie but i was getting a little concerned that we were sitting back and not going for the kill in the 2nd half and thus inviting pressure. we had several chances to get a second in the first half when we carved them open but wasted them. pure delight to see that fat c**t allardyce finally beaten by us. and that greek slaphead who had been mouthing off in the press. a sweet sweet victory though i was slightly a bit nervous everytime they played throwball. what sort of tactics are they. are they actually proud to play like that and how many fouls was bennett alowing them to make on us. lovely to see lauren get that slaphead by the shirt and give him what for another cynical foul. senderos is growing in confidence and i was once again delighted with his performance. he takes no prisoners and just does what he is supposed to do - defend no nonsense! surely he has to keep his place now. his potential and ability are starting to come to the fore. keep it up son. well done arsenal. yes it wasnt pretty and we were a bit too casual/cautious in the 2nd half but we rolled up our sleeves and werent intimidated or pushed around as we we were in the 1 0 defeat in january. are a few people on here never satisfied. you'd think we had lost....

true arsenal boy
March 13, 2005

if you want to really hear something funny, go to the BBC website and watch the interview with Allardyce. I had tears rolling down my cheeks as he complains about how Bergkamp fouled Ben Haim in the build up to our goal. Who doesnt like the physical approach now? And please after you should have had 3 off today! *** I love the bit about the sending off. Jens went over to intimidate Diouf and the used gamesmanship to get him sent off. Then he wheels out the "millions we've spent over the years". Please give this guy his own stand up show, he's quality. ***"Some pens are given and some aren't." Senderos breathed on Davies. Apparently a "push" in the back. Oh, stop, please, i can't get my breath back. Please step forward and claim your prize of the biggest c*** in football. Well, ok maybe Alex is still shading it.

Patrick
March 13, 2005

Sorry Charles but I thought Ljungberg was the player who scored and won the game for us.

charles
March 13, 2005

Lundberg must go.Hes useless,never gets passt his defender,spens half his time moaning,whers SWP wen you knead him ?.Oh hang on,liundberg scored the winner and played quit well.Um...Wengher out.Marinello out.

simon
March 13, 2005

After watching a team like Bolton abuse the rules today, I really wonder if its time this country brought in the rule that every other league in Europe has about "showing studs" in the tackle. Its no coincidence the rise in ankle ligament injuries and broken bones in the foot. If Bolton had a CL ref today from Spain or Italy, they would have finished with 8 men and that is no exaggeration. Every time one of our players released the ball as the cameraman followed the ball, you saw our player being dumped over in the background. Every quick break wa thwarted by a drag back or cynical foul. But the one that really makes me angry is when a player leaves his studs in when a player hits a pass so that our players follow through goes into the sole of the boot. Bolton are the masters at it and our refs just can't see it. ***Players are not stupid, they know when someone hasn't got a hope of getting the ball and when they don't see a ref doing anything, that is when the problem of retaliation comes in. If you feel the ref is doing something about it, at least you know it won't go unpunished for 90 mins. It seems to be a problem that happens to us fairly regularly. Can anyone seriously imagine Bolton keeping even 10 on the field if they were playing Man Utd today????? Not a chance.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

We have to take account of the mid-week match against BM which most of our player were invoved in Bolton were fresher though the ten man helped to cancel that out Bergkamp could not be expected at his age to play two games in three days ,though to be honest he did not lookk that great in the first one !. Main thing is we are the first team through in a competition that like Manure as suddenly become important too us. Beating them in the final would do for me, and finishing ahead of them in the league also for starters

simon
March 13, 2005

Richie - Thought Toure was a bit unluck on a few occasions. For many headers he jumped early with his arms up as everyone does, but the amount of times Davies backed into him so it looked like he was coming over the top was a joke.

Richie
March 13, 2005

What comes around and all that. Diouf was looking for a penalty after taking a dive (unusual for him) then gets sent off for an elbow. What a tosser he is. Lee Dixon and Peter Reid felt that Pires was a little unlucky for that 'dive'. How the hell Davies stayed on the pitch I will never know. It wasn't vinatge Arsenal but at this stage of the season and the way things have turned out then it will do me. Senderos another solid game. Toure has to be careful, gives away too many free kicks. He was all over one of their players which lead to the sending off but got away with it. 25th FA Cup s/f. Both semi's in Cardiff. Come on Southampton!

goonerguru
March 13, 2005

Very pleased with our performance today,I thought we would struggle to get a result on that shithole of a pitch,but the lads always looked in control of the game to me.I thought Bolton were very very lucky to finish with 10 men on the pitch if they had had 2 or even 3 sent off they could have had no complaints.Ljungberg played well today and his goal was a great finish to an excellent move,Paddy had a real captain's game both in defence and midfield long live the king.Reyes was again disappointing but I was reminded by Pearce that he is still only 21 and still in his first season and has played over 30 games for us already so may be we should not judge him to hastily.In defence I couldn't fault Lehmann,how many minutes without conceding now Steve?,Clichy was very good again and Senderos now looks like he has been in that defence for years and had an excellent game.Bolton played the only way they know how,see how far they can kick you up in the air,and high balls in to the box either from open play,throw ins,or free kicks and even though they done it at every opportunity and considering we had a small team out there today we coped quite easily.

clock end clive
March 13, 2005

So Ray Stubbs believes Bolton had "distinction in defeat?" All i saw was the crudest team we have played for many a year. Being competitive is one thing but throughout the game Bolton's challenges belied their Premiership status. I think Sheffield were a far more honest team - Allardyce should be embarrassed by his players brutish behaviour. How both Stelios and Davies avoided the red card only the ref will know - they were both guilty of several bad tackles. The defence - apart from the hyperactive and nervous Kolo - was excellent. Senderos was the star but Jens also did well. Midfield was very efficient - all played their part and the longer it went on Paddy was dominant. I thought Jose was patchy - genuine brilliance mixed with yet more falling over and easy surrendering of possession - overall though he comes out of it with credit. A goal was there for him but it just did not happen. Dennis was an enigma - at one point i thought - "Is he playing today?" - for his contribution was fitful. Many good signs for us as far as spirit was concerned.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 13, 2005

I don't see how anyone can say we controlled that game. We gave them far to many opportunities to deliver the ball into our box from both open and set plays. A team whos whole ethos is to press the opposition should, after being reduced to 10 men, have been passed off the park and due to our failings they were still in the game until the 90th minute.

Rich
March 13, 2005

sorry......here it is "An early goal from Freddie Ljungberg and the dismissal of Bolton's El Hadji Diouf were the deciding factors as Arsenal moved into the FA Cup quarter finals with a 1-0 win at The Reebok Stadium. Bolton showed their lion spirit in dominating possession throughout, but their numerical disadvantage may well have cost them the chance of cancelling out Ljungberg's early strike and getting themselves back into the cup tie.......... Bolton's desire showed no sign of abating after the break - with Davies typifying the grit running through the side............Bolton deserve great credit for their attitude, but the truth is that an early lapse of concentration and a moment of madness from a player who has already disgraced himself on several occasions in his brief career knocked them out of the FA Cup inside ten minutes." unbelievable, best bit being 'bolton deserve credit for their attitude'!

Rich
March 13, 2005

This is the genuine match report from sky......

Gooner7
March 13, 2005

I have never been more incensed with a team like Bolton. Such a dirty team ... a real embarassment. Sam should be totally ashamed that his dirty tactics did not work. I hope he makes it worse by claiming we got it lucky. That would really show the lack of class and total lack of integrity. Shameful Bolton. I thought Sheff Utd was bad, Bolton is worse.

Gooner7
March 13, 2005

We laboured for 1-0 ... and it was a sad display to me. For most parts of the first half, we seemed like the team with 10 men. Poor DB10 is able to do the od one or two tricks. He cannot be our main provider anymore ... age DOES make a difference. Love him but times up for him. as for Reyes, not the wonder we bought, just another ordinary player. Where is Quincy ?

simon
March 13, 2005

No wonder no one turns up to watch Bolton. They are a total embarrassment to English football. Everytime we broke, they fouled us, they left a foot in at every available opportunity after the ball had gone and should have had two more players sent off easily. Please tell me how Davies and Stelios stayed on? *** Apart from the fact that Bennett bottled all the big decisions. He didnt even give the Diof red. The fact that we managed to ened the game with the same number of cautions as they did shows what a total disgrace refs are in this country. Bolton set out to foul us off the park as they do everytime and bar a stupid reaction from Diouf would have probably ended with 11 men. Davies hammered Clichy, Pires and then Senderos before he even got a yellow card. That was a joke, he should have got at least three yellows. Stelios Went straight through Lauren twice in 5 minutes and The bottle job ref booked Lauren for a bit of (well entitled) shirt grabbing. Both challenges were late and players know when an opponent doesn't have a chance at the ball. The reason lauren reacted because Stelios was trying to injure him and got away with it. I hate Allaydyce because he sets his teams out to injure us and then people tell us we don't like the physical side of the game. ****The truth is that no other team would have to put up with these atrocious decisions. What makes it worse is that when we show any physicality, we are immediately penalised and the dirty arsenal rubbish is wheeled out. *** What made me laugh the most was how easily the Bolton players went down. They remind me of Leeds under O 'Leary, they can dish it out but can't cope with any coming back. Bolton are an embarrassment to English football and only the incompetence of our referess saw them escape having 8 or 9 men today

Gooner7
March 13, 2005

Bolton is a real disgrace ... they play dirty. Is that what tactics is all about nowadays? Opposition seems to have a habit of shoving our players .. and referees has the habit of not punishing them. Glad most of the Arsenal players kept their cool ... the ref was itching to give us a red.

Richie
March 13, 2005

Now use to the pundits and commentators not giving us credit. Some were even fancying Bolton before the kick off. Don't have a problem with that but never mind the fact we scored a very good goal and were for the most part in control of the game. Damned if we win, plucky Bolton for giving it their best with 10 men and we were a bit lucky and damned if we lose, Bolton fully deserve the win.

Rich
March 13, 2005

BBC website credits Bolton with 24 fouls in the game, and that is only the ones that were given! Anyway, great performance by the lads, 4 clean sheets in a row now, Senderos growing with every game, the TA6 comparisons are worthy. We should have put the game to bed before the end but thought we kept the ball well nad played some neat stuff. Bolton and Fat Sam are the absolute vermin of our league, they were intent on kicking and injuring our players at any opportunity, how they ended up with just 10 men was beyond me! Davies earned about 3 yellows with disgusting challenges, Stelios should have walked too. With 5 to 4 in bookings it may have looked a dirty game but the reality is that Reyes was booked for God knows what, looked like a debatable foul but nothing more, Pires booked for a dive that was ify to say the least, Flamini, ok legitamate booking but any harm done with his soft rugby tackle? and Lauren booked for aggressive shirt holding after a dangerous challenge. I lost count of the potential injury tackles Bolton put in. It was plainly obvious that after the ref had sent off Diouf (lets see Fat Sam defend that one), he would jump on any escuse to even it up and would be very reluctant to wind the crowd up any more. It is so satisfying to dump Fat Sam out of the cup.....only one team played football and that team deservedly went through. Here's to the home team at St Mary's getting it easy from the ref later! last thing bbc commentary....poor again, Bright must have something against us

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 13, 2005

Grateful for the win but we do need to show more savvie sometimes, the way we passed and moved in the last few minutes should have been happening from the moment they went down to 10 men. This lack of thinking on our feet is a major contributor to our failings in europe IMHO. Bergkamp again was very disappointing and Toure needs to calm down big time, he must have learnt by now that you cannot keep running through the back of players and climbing all over them when the balls in the air. Senderos was tremendous again and as I stated a few weeks back all he needs now is a run of games and stay free of injury.

Bodies In The Box
March 13, 2005

Bye bye to that fat ugly pig manager. And bye bye to the most filthy, out of control, team ever. And what awful commentary from that shouty prick Pearce and his gay sidekick Bright. A thoroughly unenjoyable game all round. Well done Arsenal for keeping your composure and for being the only team to play football. Hopefully Diouf well get run over on his way home.

Darren
March 13, 2005

Bodies - you're right about Bolton. Cloggers, that's all. Mind you, we will now hear from Fat Sam that the ref favoured us, blah, blah, blah! So pleased we stuffed em! They were becoming a real bogey team for us. Senderos has the look of real quality about him and we simply must keep him in the team.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Bodies ,i second that motion,we missed a lot of chances Vieria again like in the tie at Seffield man of the match,he may not be cutting themustard in the CL but can still put himself about against the rif-raf of the domestic scene. Toure for me is the weak link in defense we should try Senderos who again was great and he CAN do it also in the CL to be Sols partner when he returns, and Toure to fight it out with Lauren for RB. Another clean sheet,careful,this could become an habit!!!.

Steve Martin
March 13, 2005

420 mins since conceeding a goal, crap defence... Parting Shot by BBC Stubbs... Arsenal win curtosy of Douif, nothing to do with us being the better team, Pratt!

Andy Green
March 13, 2005

If thats what Bolton call football,I should go and dig roads for a living.

Richie
March 13, 2005

How the f*** did Ljunberg not score? On par with Kanu I am afraid. Game over. Very scrappy and niggly game. Would have taken 1-0 before the match against an awkward team. So when Pedersen shoves a player, that's fine and doesn't even get booked. Bloody inconsistencies drives me nuts. So much for dumping us out of the cup fat Sam.

Bodies In The Box
March 13, 2005

I don't think I've ever seen such a filthy team as this bunch of thugs. Absolutely disgracegul.

Richie
March 13, 2005

We are making life v difficult for ourselves. No impetus. Passing back all the time, giving away silly free kicks.

Darren
March 13, 2005

Why do we give ourselves such aggravation? We need to start keeping the ball better, otherwise the writing is on the wall here. Mind you, Senderos looks good again.

Richie
March 13, 2005

Davies booked. About time. He's been given enough chances. Should be off by now.

Richie
March 13, 2005

Have to agree. Def yellow card offence by Davies. I know the onus is on Bolton to come at us but would like to see a bit more tempo from some of our lot.

Steve Martin
March 13, 2005

How has Davies not been booked yet, even still on the pitch... The Ref is waiting for an Arsenal retaliation on him an dthat player is off... The tackle on Pires was a joke, yet Pires gets booked for diving, the game has lost all sense of proportion...

Richie
March 13, 2005

Look fairly comfortable and made some nice moves. Reyes can do better. There was definite contact when Pires went down. Have to be careful now as far as silly yellow cards are concerned. Need to take our chances though.

clock end clive
March 13, 2005

Half-time view. If we drive forward with belief we should win this by a mile - we seem to have them on both flanks but especially the left. They do not seem to have any terrific pace up front since Diouf went mad. Admiring our players self-control in face of some typically dirty Bolton play - euphemistically called tough by commentators! Paddy seems to have had his Shredded Wheat today.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 13, 2005

Get Fabregas on quick, we need someone in the middle who can keep the ball and slow the game down. We keep coughing up the ball when there's no need whatsoever, more composure needed. If we do not change our game I can see us losing this, even against 10 men, one of these goal mouth scrambles will end in a goal against which will probably be swiftly followed by an early bath for one of ours.

Cannon Balls
March 13, 2005

Another goal will wrap it up but like against Saints we must be careful he will have one of our players off givern half a chance. Reyes was pony looks like his mind is elswhere, lets hope he does better in the next half.

Darren
March 13, 2005

For a team who like to roughen up the opposition, the Bolton bench and fans really don't like it when it's against them. The ref is not falling for their ****house tactics. A clearer red card you will never see. Like at Southampton, we really need to be careful to ensure we give the ref no opportunity to even things out. We should be two up at least and that's the worry.

Steve Martin
March 13, 2005

This ref had no choice but to Douif Off, however he is itching to even it up, and he will... That was never a dive by Pires...

Richie
March 12, 2005

1-0 Ljunberg. Diouf sent off for elbowing Lehmann. Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke. W*****.

Richie
March 12, 2005

Mark Bright co-commentator....say no more. Radio for me.

goonerguru
March 12, 2005

GOOD LUCK TO THE LADS TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Bernard,i would not pay too much attentiont to Mee's predictions they are like his jokes a load of old rubbish. He was predicting that we would get beat 4-1 by BM and that Jol would be staying at Spuds. I told him two weeks ago that Jol was looking for a property in Amsterdam and was going there to manage Ajax. But he would not have it . Now today it's been revealed that he's pulled out of buying a house, which was, suitably considering that he is manager at Spuds, situated in the grounds of a lunatic asylum!. He could well be gone next week if as expected Spuds crash out of the FA Cup at Newcastle on Sunday.

Gooner7
March 12, 2005

Here's what Wenger said today - "I feel the positive part of our season is that we have found some good young players who have come through this season and can be important for us in the next years. "That they lack a bit of experience at the top, top level games is true, but it is a positive side of our season. "Now we have to be faithful to what we have created. - and with this, please start playing them. Drop the older players as soon as they are not carrying the team. The team was carrying our past stars like my fav DB10 on CL night. Again, stop vaccillating, make the tough decisions.

chocolate gooner
March 12, 2005

Nico… may be I’m misunderstanding your position as far as Reyes goes but here is a very recent quote of yours which lead me to my “Quixotic” conclusion. … “Last summer we had no money cos Wenger spent it all on Reyes in January. He said so himself. Maybe another reason for Henry to resent Hose A, by the way - a waste of money as far as Titi is concerned, and maybe he's right in the context of his recentest remarks.” … so you seem to be agreeing with Henry that Reyes was a waste of money. No? My point was and remains this: that it is too early to declare Reyes a waste of money. Secondly your account of the money Wenger spent was quite clearly vastly inflated. Now, it is very possible to make a mistake as far as transfer fees go because on the whole we, the fans, aren’t often told how much any player was bought for but this isn’t the case with the Reyes transfer… the club made some details of the transfer public and, as Yorkshire has posted, it is nowhere near your estimate. So we can clearly say that Wenger didn’t blow 22m GBP on Reyes or anywhere near that figure… and this FACT, you will have to admit, puts a completely different complexion on what you’re saying. In other words Henry will have to be a twit to dislike Reyes because Wenger spent some 9mGBP on him… that is if he really feels that way towards Reyes.So let me just say that I’m not disagreeing with the main thrust of your argument, which seems to me to be saying that Board aren’t to blame. That is fair enough. But it is equally true that AW isn’t to blame either. My understanding is that he had some 9m GBP to spend in the window… now, I can’t for the life of me work out who he could have brought in for 9m who would have made a difference because neither Ledley King nor SWP nor even Essien would have been let go by their clubs for that amount. Cheers.... ... ... ... Good Luck to the lads today. PTBAG. cheers all

Gooner7
March 12, 2005

Beat Bolton and we would all be back in better moods. Please make it happen Arsene. Make the substituitions as soon as things do not feel right. Stop vacillating on the tough decisions. Grow up and be a tougher manager. And please, stop whining to the fourth official, have more class PLEASE. We are the Arsenal ... PTBAG

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 12, 2005

Interesting line up today with Reyes leading the charge and Cole on the bench. Surprised Aliadiere did not make the bench and I guess Eboue is cover for the cbs, I hope Senderos and Toure last the 90 mins. otherwise it could get very interesting under the high ball onslaught.

Clive
March 12, 2005

.... and according to Bernard, Owen is a has been who can offer nothing else other than goals and David Bently was the best thing since sliced bread, yeah right on muppet.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 12, 2005

Captain - thanks for the info although I was more a Mothers man wakka jawakka, saying that Safe As Milk was always a favourite. COYR's, I for one don't think the FA Cup is irrelevant, particularly as there's still two teams worth spanking remaining in the competition!

Bernard
March 12, 2005

Clive, notice you said Fabregas has "an obvious passion for the club". Think Mee might disagree with you on that one; according to him Cesc will be swanning off back to Barcalona within a couple of years - despite having already left them to join Arsenal and signing a long-term contract here.

old man of hoy
March 12, 2005

Today we ask for super performances from our big men - come on Jens, Ralph, Kolo, Paddy, Bob, Freddie and Dennis -your supporters need you.Alf arrives home from work and as soon as he sets foot in the house, Sadie is on to him, telling him that their friend Michael Bloom has finally quit smoking. "Imagine that, Alf," she says, "someone who smoked 3 packs a day for 20 years has stopped smoking all of a sudden. Now that's what I call will power - something that you definitely don’t have." But Sadie hadn’t finished. "And that’s not all. I hear that Bernard, that drunken friend of yours, is finally giving up drinking – another example of the kind of will power that you don’t have." "OK, Sadie," said Alf, "you want to see will power, do you? Well here's will power. I am going to sleep in the spare room from now on. I am going to prove to you that I won’t be affected at all by not sleeping with a woman." Alf keeps to his word. One night, when he had been sleeping alone for a week, there is a knock on his bedroom door. Alf shouts out, "What do you want?" Sadie replies, "Bloom has started smoking again."

clock end clive
March 12, 2005

Agree that TH is not ideally positioned to captain the team but at the moment he is the only other realistic candidate. Sol is a bit lilywhite and goes missing too often. Ashley (who surely was the natural successor) has sadly burned his bridges. Ralph is temperamentally skipper material but may not be able to hold down a regular playing spot. The others are too quixotic or inexperienced. The long term answer is Fabregas who clearly has all the playing attributes, an obvious passion for the club and a maturity. Anybody who wants to put one on Ferguson gets my backing. As a debating point who would Arsene have turned to if Paddy had gone to Madrid at the beginning of the season? I imagine Dennis as the senior man.

Martin Jol
March 12, 2005

Hey!,i do get the impression here at the Lane that times's stood still. Just little things like black and white photgraphs everywhere, and supporters talking about matches back in 1961. And the other day i had lunch in the club canteen. On going to pay for it the lady at the till said to me: "That will be two shillings and sixpence please". And why do the doorman keep on calling me 'Bill'???.

captain beefheart
March 12, 2005

Parkerknoll The Magic Band are touring UK this summer - i won't be with them - but ain't no SNAFU, no fol-de-rol - probly the name that drove you crazy all along.Monday 23-May-05 Glasgow The Arches Tuesday 24-May-05 Leeds Irish Centre Wednesday 25-May-05 Manchester Academy 3 Thursday 26-May-05 Stourbridge Rock Café Friday 27-May-05 Sheffield Leadmill* Saturday 28-May-05 Liverpool Academy* Sunday 29-May-05 Stoke Sugarmill* Tuesday 31-May-05 Nottingham Rescue Rooms* Wednesday 1-Jun-05 Cambridge Junction* Thursday 2-Jun-05 Bristol Fleece & Firkin Friday 3-Jun-05 to be confirmed Sunday 5-Jun-05 Portsmouth Wedgewood Rooms*Monday 6-Jun-05 Oxford Zodiac* Wednesday 8-Jun-05 London Astoria

North Bank Mural
March 12, 2005

Imposter, a rotary sander on the gonads would be funnier than your "jokes", they are older than Sir Bobby Robson, go get a life elsewhere. OMOH, appreciate your gags and agree that perhaps PV should relinquish the captaincy but to TH?! In my opinion ideally it should be a defender, they are better placed to read the game, encourage and make adjustments. Who, I hear you asking? Difficult at the moment but Sol is probably the best option, nowhere near ideal as he doesn't seem to get particularly vociferous (or fit!!) and I can't see Judas AC as a leader, or an AFC player for much longer come to that! TH has the spirit but can't disguise the fact that he gets p*ss*d off with other players on occasion. Can Gilberto speaka da english? **seemingly Chelc have now admitted talking to AC, I hope the FA give them a hefty fine for lying and constantly denying the fact, along with the other issues. **Anders Frisk who refereed Chelc/Barca this week has retired forthwith after threats to his family, extremely sinister and worrying, I know where I would look if Chelc had lost!

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

I see that Phil the Spuds been at graft again, strange how he always seems to post these inane jokes of his on a Friday. Perhaps one or two too many at the Four Horseman pub is a contributing factor?. Of course these prehistoric gags still do the rounds down at the lane that time forgot, why did the Chicken cross the road ones bringing the house down on a match day. Though nothing is more hilirious than Robbie Keanes, Elvis live in Las Vegas goal celeb' routine, that's always guaranteed to raise a good laugh, even opposition supporters finding it funny!!. I also note that the man with more handles than a centipedes got feet, the boy in green, and i suspect blue, as been 'tinkin' again - always in his particular case a dangerous practice. He wants Wenger to copy his hero - no not Duff - the other one - Mourinho, right then, will the Arsenal board please give Arsene £250million to buy players with please, that should do for starters. Also he points out that Wengers tactics are not working in Europe, now who whould have thought that then?, his solution, simple, copy Mourinho's!!. It's easy this football managment m'larky ! So what you need in Europeaccording to the 'boy in green' are well thought out tactics see , you go away and get your opponent to score an own goal and lose the match 2-1. Now you then score 3 goals in the first twenty minutes at home. But - however just to make things interesting like, you then concede 2 goals!. This of course now means that your out of the competetition , but hold on don't start panicking - this is when your brilliant tactics pay off , you win a free kick - get one of your players to hold the opposition GK back - while in the meantime your CB administers the 'coup de grace' by heading the ball into the net - with the oppo' GK struggling to break free from the armlock he is being held in - easy see. Then Wenger wearing an old overcoat that he bought in an Oxfam shop for a fiver runs amok on the pitch celebrating. And dont forget to make sure that the away team get abused and pushed around by your security men when they complain about being cheated.The boy in green and blue also points out that the FA Cup is not the same as winning the CL or Premiership, right, and that big clubs leave comp's like these to Spuds and co, really?, or Chelsea even ?, after all they were going mad celebrating that lowly league Cup win the other week over Liverpool. You woud be better off if you kept quite pal and stuck to tossing youself off over your Damien Duff poster, you know nothing about football and have never been to Highbury - you silly twat.

Nico
March 12, 2005

Niall, all the unspent money, whatever it was, is available. We're never going to know how much that is, you can only speculate, but one thing I'll say is that, with £30m guaranteed to arrive in March, it wouldn't have been much of a problem to splash out £20m if Wenger felt like it. Nor is it my job to know which players are available. It's all to do with Wenger, that's all, and he's virtually admitted to lousing up. He goes on about it being all hindsight, of course, and he couldn't predict the injuries, and he would have bought someone if Edu had left. But wasn't he also going to review the situation if Gilberto returned from Brazil and was assessed to need more time to get fit? Anyway, by saying he'd have bought if Edu had left, he has admitted he could have got players in the window. Let's not pretend anything else, Wenger is the man who makes the transfer and, more importantly in the context of the last few windows, the non-transfer decisions and the board or KE has probably had enough of carrying the can for the mistakes, and fair weather to them - cos who gives them any credit for the good transfers, or for our success the last few seasons? No-one; easy targets, those little men in grey suits, for everyone to have cheap pots at them.

Florida Gooner
March 12, 2005

I agree with H.K.Gooner that if Ashley Cole leaves for Stamford Bridge, Wenger should strike a deal with Chelski for Cudicini plus cash. That would be our keeper problem solved. But I disagree with those who would have us part with Reyes as Wenger has invested a lot of money in him and the guy deserves a chance to settle down. Spuds won't part with Ledley King but having watched him a few times this season I am not in the least impressed. I can think of much better center backs than King. I understand Wenger is targeting Bucharest's center back, Mirel Rado. but I'm not familiar with him. I like Samuel Kuffour of Bayern Munich who is 28 and has expressed a desire to join Arsenal. His contract expires with Bayern this summer. So he'll be on a Bosman. This guy would be a fantastic partner for Campbell. As for midfielders Essein who plays for Lyon has been touted by a number of European clubs. He has been classed as a defensive midfielder. Apparently he is a versatile footballer and can play anywhere in midfield. I have only seen him a few times and am not in a position to comment on him. There are a number of Gooner fans at our club screaming for Wenger to sign him. But I agree with most folk here that our top two priorities are a keeper and central defender.

its only ray parlour
March 12, 2005

Gynae James: No way does Essien come to Highbury for anything below £15M based on his superb performances in the CL and the fact that Man U are hot on him as well.

Hong Kong Gooner
March 12, 2005

Some random thoughts.No wholesale changes in the summer, but a quality centre half is essential and a quality keeper is not far behind.If Cole must go, insist on Cudicini as part of the deal.Another centre mid if Edu goes, I thought Van Bommel was very good against us if Gerard and Ballack are beyond our reach.Like the idea of Cesc getting more games wide right if we play two defensive centre midfield players.Owen for Reyes if he wants away.Don't think it is possible to praise Senderos too highly for that performance against Bayern.In the first 40 minutes when we were being overrun they were restricted to no real chances as he cut out everything they had to offer, like TA at his best.Flamini is Parlour with a bit of polish and that's fine by me.Vieira must stay, this criticism is way over the top.I'd be more disappointed if we lose to Bolton than I was against Bayern as we weren't going to win the Champion's League anyway.And finally, anyone else like Mogwai and Godspeed You Black Emperor?

Gynae James
March 12, 2005

Finally in a balanced enough frame of mind to make some sense of Wednesday night. Senderos came of age and increasingly looks the natural leader we so need at the back and the peformances of Flamini & Cesc when he came on confirm that they will be great assets for years to come (as will some, not all, of the other youngters who hve flitted in & out this year). The question remains how we tide things over until then. We have the fringe players at the moment in abundance with all the young players. We need a spine of solid proven players in the summer to bolster the first team to allow the young players to come through at the right pace. Preferably, physically strong players as we are looking decidedly outmuscled in games this year.I'm not greedy (OK I may be dreaming a little) but if I were writing the cheques...........A top Keeper is a must (Frey/Niemi/Abbiati for £5m) ,Ledley King (£15m), Essien (7m), Wright-Phillips (15m)and a striker to support Henry. Who that striker may be I'm not sure, but my preference would be to sell Reyes (who was a disgrace on Wednesday) to whoever in Spain wants him and see if there are decent players around in exchange (?Owen/?Aimar etc...).I know that is a little harsh on Reyes, but we played for an hour with 10 men. He constantly ran into trouble, constantly passed to a black shirt and gave the ball away too cheaply when we were in decent positions leading to potentially dangerous counterattacks. I'm sure he WILL be a great player, but I'm not convinced it can be soon enough to justify him a starting place or convinced he will ever be consistently strong enough for the premiership.That would leave us with a team (squad) for a net outlay of around £40m of ??Keeper (Taylor), Lauren / Toure (Eboue), Cole (Clichy), Campbell (Senderos), King (Toure), Wright-Phillips (Fabregas), Pires (Ljunberg), Viera (Essien), Gilberto (Flamini), Henry (??striker), Bergkamp (Van Persie/Aliadierre ir ever fit long enough) ..............losing Lehman / Almunia / Cygan / Edu / Pennant / Reyes......with Hoyte/Quincy/Lupoli/Ryan Smith on the fringes.Lord knows how much we really have to spend but whatever it is I still believe Arsene remains the right man to be given it. We need to all accept the fact that only one team can win the league and C.league and although we have underperformed there is a fine line between success & failure and maybe next year we'll go a season with the spine of our team untouched by injury and bizarre dips in form like Chelsea this year, and without crucial referring errors in critical games that change the course of a season.Either way I remain exceptionally proud of what we have achieved over the last few years and even more so considering we have achieved it from within a financial straight-jacket, whilst playing the finest football I believe any team has played in English club football. It may just be that many of us will not appreciate even seasons like this one until we are watching the 2030 equivalent of McGoldrick, Hillier, Selley & Helder in midfield!

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

If Cole came to them as the guardian and the independent claims, then does it make it okay for Chelsea to have met with him or would they still have to go through the club or at the least say 'its against the rules to meet'? If the rumor that Cole was told 40k and no negotiation is true, can we really blame him? He's lauded as the best LB in the world. That's got to be worth 50k or 60k a week at a minimum. I personally think it was about money and if Cole is offered a significant increase he'll stay.

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

Bernard, there are a number of players I was wrong about and will readily admit. When we were chasing Kewell I thought he'd be good for us. I thought Jeffers needed more chances at one time to prove himself as well. I wouldn't say I over-rate Saha. I am not saying he's Schevchenko, never claimed he would be. I just thought at the time (when he was at Fulham) he'd fit into our system as well as offer something we didn't have at the time (heading ability for one, a left footed striker who can score with both feet and provide if necessary, as well as a great partner for Henry) but I think he's a good player. That's all. My only argument is that if its argued that he's not working out at Man Yoo as proof he is not good when the fact is he's been injured most of the time. When he is on the pitch he makes things happen on that club. We've been the victim of it. I wouldn't take him now. When he was at Fulham, yes, I'd take him, but I wouldn't now because he just doesn't seem to stay healthy. That's the only reason why I wouldn't take him now if Fergie offered him. Dafoe is a great alternative. I'd take him in an instant. Especially over Owen.

Gooner7
March 12, 2005

Buy Crouch, he's only 24. With Wenger's abilities, he could turn this "basketball" player into a better football player. He would be useful in corners, and for a start, could come off the bench for that crucial equalizer or winning goal. Say 3 million for him?

Gooner7
March 12, 2005

Goodness me, if Lehmann really did soak a referee, we really must get rid of him. Can't he control his tempers? He has caused us enough problems already. Seaman was always the smiling and friendly sort, I miss his smiles. He calms raw nerves, and that's not just for Arsenal's players.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 12, 2005

Bernard - for me that's AW most difficult puzzle to solve, especially on the cheap, who to partner Henry. TH14 is such a unique talent you just cannot partner him with most strikers. Of all the strikers I've watched this year the one that stands out for me as being tailormade for him is Kaka, his movement, pace, technique, intelligence and finishing ability would be the ideal compliment. Trezuguet is accepted as one of the top finishers in europe but they've never looked convincing as a partnership to me and I think someone like Defoe would disappoint as well.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 12, 2005

Beefheart - how goes your Magic Band? Ibrahimovic is a good example of AW reticence in the transfer market. choccie I think it was said that AW would never buy an Adriano or a Kaka, well I disagree, the key is buying them at the right time. How much did Parma and Milan pay to acquire these players, how much did PSG invest in Ronaldinho at the time AW spent £13m (just for you Niall) on Wiltord. Mascherano went for £6-7m, next season he'll probably turn up at Valencia for £10m before moving on to Inter or Madrid for £25m, it's all in the timing and being prepared to take a slight risk. Why did AW not sign Petr Cech, we all know it was down to work permits but if AW knew he was that good then why not do the deal and leave him at Rennes until he fullfilled his international quota. AW needs to be a little more flexible in the market especially when operating at the higher level, what's the worst that can happen, say Reyes fails to settle all that will happen is he's moved back to Spain and most if not all his initial fee will be recouped. As for SWP I'd like to see him arrive in the summer but would not spend more than £8m on him, I'd also hope that he was far from AW biggest signing in the summer. Those that need shipping out are Lehmann (he's probably not going to be eligible for the group stage of the CL), Almunia, Lauren, Cygan and Ljungberg (if he does not sign). We need a top drawer keeper and good back up, a top cb (Chivu for age and ability would be ideal), a speciallist rm (a Castelen or Kuijt) and Essien as the long term replacement for Vieira.

Bernard
March 12, 2005

American, I don't think anyone could call Saha a bad player, but I really can't work out why you seem to over-rate him so much. Despite not being a bad player (in my view), he's been a seriously bad signing for United simply because he's nowhere near as good as you seem to think he is - nor presumably as good as Ferguson hoped he was. Why do you keep defending him? I'd have thought it may be better just to accept you might have made an error of judgement about a player who isn't remotely approaching the top drawer. If we need a new forward and made a half decent offer for him, I bet Ferguson would release him because I'd imagine he may now realise his mistake (as he's had to with others including Veron and Forlan) and because he'd know Saha wouldn't really strengthen our attacking capacity. So can I throw another candidate into the hat for new forward signings: with all this talk of Tottenham perhaps releasing King to us (though I still don't think that will happen), how about Defoe? Would give us everything Owen would, and in my view a lot more in addition.

Bernard
March 12, 2005

Niall, I think Ibramhimovich (spelling?) is an impossibility now he's moved to Juventus. Torres is far more possible, although on the relatively few occasions I've seen him I've never really seen what all the fuss is about. Hopefully (if we do get him) it's just a coincidence that I've just hand-picked his rare poor performances to watch. I take your point about keeping Ljungberg as cover for right midfield if we get Wright-Phillips and left midfield if Pires stays, but I'd like to think Bentley can provide more than adequate cover for Wright-Phillips (if he arrives, which is dependant on City getting realistic over his valuation) and also there's Lauren who can play right midfield if Toure (presuming we do buy a central defender such as Kompany), Eboue (who's looked very impressive each time I've seen him) or Hoyte can cover the right back spot between them. I personally think Wenger will want to give Reyes another year, so if we can hang on to Cole we should have adequate cover for left midfield with Pires, Reyes and Clichy. Hence I think we should let Ljungberg go if we get a decent offer of £10 million or so, but I guess you'd expect me to say that wouldn't you?

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

Gun Gun, wouldn't you love to win the thing if for no other reason than to leave Man Yoo trophyless? I think the final could be good this year. I would love beat Man Yoo and see Spurs go through to the final. Us and scum would be a dandy cup final. Bring a little back to the competition since over the last couple years Soton and Millwall made for a more boring and predictable cup final.

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

I may not always agree with the real Cannon Balls, but I much rather prefer him 1 million times more than this fake.

GunGun
March 12, 2005

Who cares about Bolton on Saturday. That`s not going to change much. There are only two competitions that count. The Premier League and the Champions League. We are out of both.The other competitions are for clubs like Spurs and Brentford etc. Little clubs who do not compete in the big competitions because they are not good enough. We should see that we are not too good in tactics and strategies in Europe. We look second best although we have top players. It is not the players ...it is the lack of tactical maturity that makes us fail in Europe.

Perspective
March 12, 2005

old man of hoy - Thank you sir. Good joke BTW.

captain beefheart
March 12, 2005

Tomorrow bBe brave my Arsenal and remember - Distant cousins, there's a limited supply.And we're down to the dozens, and this is why:Big Eyed Beans from Venus! Oh my, oh my. Boys and girls, Earth people around the circle,Mixtures of man alive.Big eyed beans from Venus,Don't let anything get in between us. Beam in on me baby,and we'll beam togetherI know we always been together, but there's more. Mister Zoot Horn Rollo, hit that long lunar note,and let it float. Men let your wallets flop out, and women open your purses,Cause a man or a woman without a big eyed bean from VenusIs suffering with the worstest of cursesYeah, you're suffering, with the worstest of curses.

old man of hoy
March 12, 2005

Young Man of Hoy - stop drinking lager and give your mum a call. In the meantime this for Thierry as he recovers.A lady approaches her rabbi and tells him, "Rabbi, I havea problem. I have two female talking parrots, but they onlyknow how to say one thing.""What do they say?" the rabbi inquired."They only know how to say, 'Hi, we're prostitutes. Wantto have some fun?'""That's terrible!" the rabbi exclaimed, "but I have asolution to your problem. Bring your two female parrotsover to my house and I will put them with my two maletalking parrots whom I taught to pray and read Hebrew.My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying thatterrible phrase and your female parrots will learn to praiseand worship.""Thank you!" the woman responded.The next day the woman brings her female parrots to the rabbi's house.His two male parrots are wearing tiny yamulkes and praying intheir cage. The lady puts her two female parrots in with the male parrotsand the female parrots say, "Hi, we're prostitutes, want to have some fun?"One male parrot looks over at the other male parrot andexclaims, "Put away the siddurs! Our prayers have been answered!"

old man of hoy
March 12, 2005

One for the real Cannon BallsThe Rabbi and his WifeThe Rabbi and his wife were cleaning up the house. The Rabbi came across abox he didn't recognize. His wife told him to leave it alone, it waspersonal. One day, she was out and his curiousity got the better of him. He openedthe box and inside he found 3 eggs and $2000. When his wife came home, headmitted that he had opened the box and asked her to explain the contentsto him.She told him, every time he had a bad sermon, she would put an egg in thebox. He thought to himself, "In twenty years, only three bad sermons,that's not bad." His wife continued, "And every time I got a dozen eggs,I would sell them for $1."

old man of hoy
March 12, 2005

Fake Cannon Balls - not nice to use another's name is it? Please leave quietly. Perspective - good words - a joke in your honour sir.Heaven & Hell HEAVEN is where:The police are BritishThe chefs ItalianThe mechanics are GermanThe lovers are Frenchand it's all organised by the Swiss HELL is where:The police are GermanThe chefs are BritishThe mechanics are FrenchThe lovers are Swissand it's all organised by the Italians!!

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Why do Arsenal fans whistle on the toilet ?? So they know which end to wipe.

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Whats the difference between an Arsenal fan and a trampoline? You take your shoes off to jump on the trampoline.

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Arsene Wenger was to meet his new girlfriend outside the Cinema at 7pm, at 9pm she had still not arrived, so he went home furious. He phoned her up and said "what the 's going on? I waited for Two hours in the cold." She said, "I am not going out with you now, we are finished". "Why?" He asked. She replied "One of my friends said you are a Paedophile." "A Paedophile?" cried Wenger, "that's a big word for a Seven year old!!"

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Q. What is the difference between Jon Pertwee and Ray Parlour? A. Ray Parlour still looks like Worzel Gummidge.

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Q. What's the second highest selling item in the chelseas souvenir shop? A. Horlicks.

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Q. How long did Tony Adams played for Arsenal? A. Donkeys years.

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

What do you call an Arsenal fan on this forum with half a brain ?? Gifted.

Perspective
March 12, 2005

Talk about an over reaction. Arsenal were knocked out of the European Cup. Reading the press and listening to the so called experts you would be mistaken that somebody had died. After 7 yrs of under achieving, nobody should be surprised at this weeks exit. It would appear that the press are more obsessed about us winning the damn thing than AW is. It would be lovely to win it but it's not the be all and end all. All said and done it's a glorified Euro FA Cup if you like. So we haven't won it. Big bloody deal. How many times have MU won it? Twice. Once back in the sixties when it was totally different then and in '99 when they only qualified because the runners up in the league were allowed to enter it. 2 goals in the dying seconds saved the day. It wasn't exactly convincing. Who gets all the flak for being dumped though? Yes the press boys favourite punch bag: Arsenal. Never mind the fact we were playing a decent BM side and that we were without some key players. MU have not exactly set the world alight in Europe and look at the players they have and had. And Chelsea the new media darlings. Good luck to them but they don't even register when it comes to winning trophies. Have Arsenal been relegated in modern times? No. Have MU and Chelsea? Yes, a few times for Chelsea in fact. Whilst I am on a rant. What about Liverpool? 15 yrs and counting since winning the championship. And goodness knows how much money has been spent at Anfield. AW has made mistakes, of course he has but not once have we been outside the top 2 in his tenure at Highbury. Ok we haven't done that well in the Euro Cup but neither have alot of other teams both here and in Europe. Barcelona spring to mind though they have won it. It's a damn hard trophy to win but you also need a huge slice of luck, something that has deserted us this season. And now the media hacks are like vultures waiting for our demise in the FA Cup. They can't wait to stick the boot in. I know it's about the present but it seems ok for everyone to hark on about the past glories of MU and Liverpool. Fine, so will I about Arsenal. 5 Championships, 4 FA Cups, 1 League Cup, 1 Cup Winners Cup. And how many semi finals I don't know. All since 1989. All done on a much tighter operating budget than both MU and Liverpool. Maybe we have been a little spoilt in recent times and another early Euro exit is seen as a disaster by some. Not by me. Of course it's disappointing but our time will come. I really believe that. This a fantastic football club and if you actually stand back and reflect on the trophies that have been won, some under difficult circumstances then it should make you very proud indeed. I am just getting a little peeved at the constant sniping at Arsenal FC. Not by anyone on this forum but by the media in general. There I have said it. Now let's stuff Bolton tomorrow.

Niall
March 12, 2005

I would tend to be more sympathetic towards Wenger Nico, in Jan how much did he have and who was available really? £9-£10m?

Nico
March 12, 2005

And now for a balanced view from le boss himself....http://www.teamtalk.com/teamtalk/News/Story_Page/0,7760,1766_347260,00.htm....can't be true that he's admitting to a mistake and hasn't hit back at that nasty lot sticking daggers in his back in the press. Reading between the lines, he intends to accuse Edelman of holding back the money until the 32nd day of January and quit for the revolving doors at the Bernabeu, and who can blame him? ((;-()))...spot the beard!

Nico
March 12, 2005

Niall, very fair point, mate, and Arsene is very involved in this as well. Please note that we have made £13m cost savings in just the half year to November. This is not just the board's doing, it's also Arsene farsightedly culling from his squad, allowing the likes of Sidwell to go elsewhere, as well as electing not to buy just for the hell of it. In order to lift the wage ceiling(s) [there are several levels to raise, not just the top one], he's waited and waited a litle more patiently even than before, skipping the odd window here and there in the process. The obvious new factor at the top level now being Abramovich, who's shifted the goalposts and made it even harder for Arsenal to draft players in than to keep them (according to Arsene's own recently published quote), which, as we know, has been desperately hard in the first place. Again the burden is shared by the board and Arsene. Abramovich was not Arsenal's creation and they're dealing with him admirably well on top of everything else.

Nico
March 12, 2005

Er, does anyone want to hear Henry's version of his thoughts from the horse's mouth? Read it on the official website......http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?article=262102&lid=NewsHeadline&sub=Henry:+%27I+never+criticised+the+board%27&navlid=&sublid=&Title=Henry:+%27I+never+criticised+the+board%27.....great story today, the one about Henry slagging off that stingy, horrible, nasty board for not releasing funds to poor ol' Arsene, and reviewing his future at the Club. Must have sold lots of papers while the rest of us were trying to make an honest living.

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

DHD and Clive...and I hear I was moaning to myself about having to get up at 4am to watch it live on television! I do sympathize but I'd also love to have the option like you guys do over there. **** Is it Reyes and Bergkamp up front? Any news on who is starting? van Persie perhaps? I like the Clichy-Cole left side attack. The good thing about it is they interchange each other's positions as well.

Niall
March 12, 2005

Nico, there surely needs to be a subtle difference this time than in the summer of 2001 and that is wage structure. Although Wenger paid what £25m for the three flops combined, he was buying two of them at inflated English prices and one who wasn't cheap from Rangers either. However, I don't think any of these players would have been on exceptional wages - the whole pot there surely eaten up by Campbell's salary although we of course benefitted from paying no transfer fee. If we're going to spend on quality this time, then the board is going to have to pay the salary these players are worth, and if we are talking Owen, Wright Phillips a top defender and possibly a top keeper, plus maybe increasing Cole's salary (overdue) then the board has a huge hand to play also. What I'm trying to say is that the money was there to purchase the players at that time, but was the money there for salaries to buy the better players we probably could have got for £25m at European prices???

old man of hoy
March 12, 2005

Not sure if i believe the quote from Paddy on 501 text - he says he can't understand why we are unsuccesful in Europe and he doe not know what to do about it as he is just a player. Well that confirms my view that he is unable to change the course of others performances during a match - is that not what a captain does? If the only duties are to have a photo taken with the mascot and to call heads or tails fine - but i think it entails more than that. Paddy boy - pass the armband to Thierry next season and get back to business. One for the lovely Kevin Keegan. Sam’s daughter says to him one day, "Dad, as you’re coming up to 80, why don’t you go see doctor Seigal and get him to give you a full medical? You haven’t been yourself ever since Mum died." "OK," says Sam. And sure enough, a week later, he has a full health check. Three days afterwards, doctor Seigal is surprised to see Sam walking towards him in Edgware High Street with a beautiful, sexy looking lady on his arm. She looks no more than 30. When they meet, doctor Seigal says, "It’s nice to see you Sam. When you have a moment, why don’t you call me? I have something I need to discuss with you." "OK doctor," says Sam, "I’ll call you this afternoon." When Sam rings later that day, doctor Seigal says to him, "I see that you’ve decided to start seeing other women, Sam." "Yes doctor," replies Sam, "I’m doing what you suggested when you said ‘get a hot mamma and be cheerful.’" "But that’s not what I said, Sam," says doctor Seigal, "I told you that ‘you've got a heart murmur... be careful.’"

clock end clive
March 12, 2005

Jamie Davis i'll tell you why there will be big gaps in our support at Bolton tomorrow - the midday start is ridiculous. I frequently travel to away games with the Travel Club coach but to do so tomorrow i have to be at Highbury by 6am and then undertake a 4 hour plus journey. As a non-driver that means i have to use public transport to get from my south London home or pay over the odds for a cab just to reach the coach! Either way i have to get going by 4.45 at the latest. I go to quite a lot of away matches and i can tell you the support is excellent - much more enjoyable than at home - lots more singing which the players - especially Freddie - seem to appreciate.

Nico
March 12, 2005

er, 03/04 was when Reyes was bought, but the point stands

Nico
March 12, 2005

Where, chocco don quixote gooner, oh where did I write off Reyes? You know as well as I do as the board does as does Wenger that it's a riskier signing for being a top dollar fee for a rookie, and may fail and the cost will be higher than if it wasn't such an expensive signing and it may also fail COZ it was an expensive signing and blah blah blah and zzzzzz. Sorry but you keep tilting at windmills if you spin my view another way. The board has been giving Wenger funds to spend since the funding for AG was in place. I make it that £50m or more may have been made available since Jan 04 alone though much of that is still unspent. I am not benchmarking Wenger against ferglebottom, God forbid. Wenger always said he won't spend aeroplane money on a player, so Rooney, Ferdinand, RVN and Veron are not for Wenger at fergie inflation rates or Abro-indexed. Incidentally, in the context of great players whom Wenger spotted first but missed because he was gazumped, we forgot to mention Ronaldo whom we were supposed to be on the brink of signing for 5m Euro's or something silly, when fergie made a cunning swoop and blasted the fee so high he must have had insider information from one of his agent sons, all of this to the delight of his board and shareholders (with Cannon Balls gleefully licking his lips and sharpening his witty pencil). What is more, please don't forget that money has indeed been wasted once before in Arsenal's celebrated triple swoop for Gio, Wright and Jeffers (your favourite by all accounts!) when Arsene did have a pot to p*** in once before. So now he's doubly careful, and so is the board, but the money is there, and was only really missing in 02/3. Oh no, sorry, not even then, as according to your own contention, the Reyes Euro25m (thanks Yorkshire) was spent/earmarked/booked/debited in that season and that accounting year. So, by your argument, in this accounting year we've only spent £5.4m (last summer), and nothing in the window. Fair enough, but who gives a monkey's e*g what the others spend or spent or keep spending by comparison? This only matters when or if Wenger really wants to spend but can't cos of cash tightness at the Club, or, worse, thinks the Club can afford to give him money but deliberately stonewall him, and my contention is that, as it turns out, the times during which cash tightness prevailed have been very few and far between, whilst deliberate blocking and stonewalling by the board are a figment of some obsessive imaginations which pander to any ol' tabloid story, no names no pacdrill. Well USM to name but one, actually (:-)). Wenger is a sage, a wise man, a beard sratcher, a genius, a bespoke philosopher, not just any old sophist by comparison to most. If that's what you wanna hear, well I've said it. Now are you satisfied?

DHD
March 12, 2005

The journey to Bolton starts for many at 6.00 tomorrow morning when the coaches start leaving Avenell Rd for the 4 - 5 hr journey. The unfeasibly early start is due to the decision to kick off at 12.30. Of course many will already have travelled for some hours to get to the ground by 6 but this is how the travalling support are jerked around these days to suit the TV schedules. It's not often I feel any sympathy for the Mancs but a 5.30 kick off at Southampton is also taking the p*ss (handy for those Surrey & Hampshire Mancs though).

Niall
March 12, 2005

DaveM: let’s start with what we agree on because it will make it slightly easier. We both agree that if we are going to progress in Europe that Ljungberg can be improved upon. That is fair enough. I say that as a person who values his contribution to past European and domestic success (apply that literally to Europe, winning a game has been a success there!!) where he has consistently found the net in huge games. There is no need for me to name them, everybody should be aware of that fact. All these sides were organized and indeed could be described as quality. Firstly, Ljungberg’s job is always to be a right midfielder but the nature of his game is that when we have the ball he makes runs off the ball and gets into scoring positions. I disagree with your opinion that we never get control of the midfield against organized better sides cos I have seen us do it on many an occasion and that is frankly untrue. Furthermore, the game against Chelsea was far from our best performance of the season. In the first half of that game we were clearly second best despite going in front in the game (through opportunism rather than concerted pressure.) In the second half we did have a good 20-25 minute spell when Mourinho abandoned his 5 man midfield, which he quickly reverted back to after Henry’s sitter and by and large we were stifled again. That is not a critique of Flamini and Cesc who performed admirably and have done when called upon this season, but rather a more realistic view of that game. As for Gilberto, criticizing him for his right midfield performances is just a tad harsh, it isn’t his natural position. How do you think Makelele would play out there? That’s a silly point and furthermore, Gilberto is not there to turn games, he’s there to protect the defence first and foremost. I agree his rep has been done no harm by his absence this season, but that does tend to ignore that before he got injured this season, he was playing outstandingly well alongside Cesc in central midfield. Anyway, my take on the situation is this. A goalkeeper is a must and by reputation Hildebrand would be a god signing but of keepers I’m aware off I think Shay Given would be an excellent signing if we could get him from Newcastle. Unfortunately I expect neither to arrive. In central defence, we definitely need to add a top defender there. Campbell has missed a huge slice of this season, Toure is capable when confident and Senderos put in his finest 90 minutes on Wednesday showing enormous potential. Not to bring one more in would be a mistake though as Cygan is not up to the job and we’re talking building European Cup squads here, so we need better cover. I’d also look at the right back position as Lauren is exposed at the higher level quite often and has suspect temperament. If Cole leaves and we get £20m, Clichy can step in and learn the role but then we’ll also need cover for him as you can’t expect to go through the season with one left back. On the right, SWP is consistently linked and if Man City talk realistic money, he looks the most obvious. Ljungberg should remain as we need to have two players in the position and Ljungberg still has plenty to offer. He can also cover the left side. Edu appears to be off otherwise I’d keep all our existing midfielders but add Essien who by all accounts is an outstanding prospect. Getting this guy could see Vieira depart and that would free up money and perhaps see Owen come our way. Ditto: Reyes, who I would sell on if his heart clearly isn’t in it. Cesc has proved he is good enough to get games no matter who the competition is, Flamini should be a squad player imo. On the left, Pires should stay and play in that position. It is where he is best and his link play with Henry is valuable. Up front, we definitely need to add. Speculation could be true about Owen, who wouldn’t be my first choice but I wouldn’t dismiss as a bad signing. As I’ve said before I’d prefer an Ibrahimovich type to partner Henry as this could add an aerial threat as well as technical ability on the ground. Perhaps Torres of Atletico if we have as much cash as we are said to have. Of course, half of this won’t happen, but I feel with the addition of 5-6 players and by only losing Edu, Reyes and possibly Vieira, we could quickly be in with a shout and be a more balanced team. This being one of the reasons Chelsea have been more successful than us this season.

US martin
March 12, 2005

Nice find, Nico. But the point stands in my last post -there is no place for actual or perceived finger-pointing in this enterprise by anyone, and the risks inherint from such practices should make the Board members more reticent in their public statements-the fact that Henry may not have actually said that this time should not convince anyone that those types of comments were highly imprudent, and hopefully that lesson has been learned and straight away...

Yorkshire
March 12, 2005

ARSENAL CONFIRM FINANCIAL DETAILS OF REYES SIGNINGArsenal Holdings plc confirms that its subsidiary The Arsenal Football Club plchas signed Spanish international Jose Antonio Reyes from Sevilla Futbol Clubeon a four and a half year contract; completion of the contract is subject tothe player undergoing a medical and his registration with the FA and the FAPremier League.The initial consideration is EUR15 million, of which EUR10 million is payableimmediately. Additional consideration of up to EUR9.5 million may becomepayable, subject to various appearance and performance criteria beingsatisfied.

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

Steve Martin, if the insinuation is that Parker and Saha aren't good players then I respectfully disagree. Using that line of argument then Anelka is a not a good footballer. Saha's injuries doesn't mean he's not a good football player. He's been instrumental against us in the last few times we played Man Yoo. Parker made an unwise decision going into a team that changed managers and the new guy didn't want him. Not the first time that scenario has happened to a player.

Richie
March 12, 2005

General sale prob something to do with the fact it's on terrestial telly and an early kick off to boot. What with the trip to Sheffield recently and the other games, peoples pockets are only so deep. Just a thought.

Gunner Gun U Down
March 12, 2005

hey guys according to tribalfootball arsene has 40 mill to spend due to the windfall after the aggreement between arsenal and granada. And his first signin will be essien, and it aslo mention that he will sign a keeper and striker. check it out.

North Bank Mural
March 12, 2005

Choccy, sadly I find myself agreeing with you re new players. If we rip the heart of the team out there is no guarantee that any "esprit de corps" will remain, or it may take another season to foster and develop. I guess that is where AG will have to earn his corn. **Jamie, I am at a loss to understand why tickets have gone on general sale. My work takes me out of the country so I have never been in a position to buy a season ticket or attend regularly. I naturally assume all tickets sell out and rarely check the box office. Had I known earlier they were available I would have been there. As you say, it's the FA cup.

chocolate gooner
March 12, 2005

I’m sorry Nico but even if you add the Reyes fee to the 5.4m GBP, what do you end up with? … a whole lot less than Fergie spent on Rooney alone and his fee has to be what we’ve paid not an entirely hypothetical figure of 17mGBP … and the media are not spinning anything; Reyes was bought during last season’s transfer window so I don’t understand how you can add it to this season’s spending. I’m more than willing to compare like with like… in the same period Chelsea have spent some 200m GBP and ManUre and Fergie splurged on players like the Djemba x2, Kleberson, Bellion, Ronaldo and others. So my point stands; to expect trophies after what Wenger has spent on the grounds that our investment has been adequate or comparable isn’t a fair assumption to make. I also don’t see why you’re so eager to write off Reyes as a wrong ‘un. The guy is clearly having problems settling but I see no reason to doubt his basic ability. Yes, his confidence is low and he is probably unhappy, I believe mostly because his folks and girlfriend are reported to be unhappy, but signing the guy is nothing Wenger has to regret. If he can overcome his problems- and it’s far from clear that he can’t- then he might still fulfil his undoubted potential at Arsenal… and since we aren’t exactly hawking him around Europe looking for a buyer his value hasn’t depreciated because whoever wants him is going to have to come to us and we’ll name a price that we believe the guy to be worth… so what is your point? And I’m not saying that Reyes was “cheap” but that the deal, as structured, was heavily weighted in our favour. The way I read your post was that you were saying that Wenger isn’t good at buying players at the higher end of the market… my view is that since he has never really had that much to spend I don’t think that the point is a valid one. If he has the money and brings a big signing who subsequently flops then you can say that he can’t do it but the fact that we were in the running for Van Nistleroy and where thwarted because manure offered more, tells me that the guy can spot talent whether cheap or not. Like I said how hard is it to see that someone like Adriano is a quality player? I agree with you when you say that Wenger won’t radically change his transfer policy and I personally applaud him for having the courage to stick to his guns. Our kids are all gaining valuable experience this season… we will need some new blood if only to freshen things up but the chorus demanding radical surgery seems to me to completely over the top. I may well be wrong but I don’t think that we need a whole sale clear out. We need some players who’ll really add to the team’s overall standard but we also have to make sure that the kids progress don’t get choked off. It’s a difficult balance to strike and I’m glad it’s rather Wenger than slow, old me or any other tactical genius on this forum who has that particular job. My point, which is more or less what you seem to be saying, is that there is no one to blame for anything because there’s nothing too wrong at the club. Okay.. may be Europe needs some explaining but I fail to see how a tactical genius who can’t beat some of the teams in the lower reaches of the Premiership can go swanning into the QF of the ECL with the car thieves while we flop again. Cheers and goodnight.

Steve Martin
March 12, 2005

Sorry, what did I say about Scott Parker and Saha when they both signed for Man Utd and Chelsea at the same time in Jan 2004... As In said, spotting a footballer who can actually play the game is dead easy, it's just a shame that 95% of football fans cannot do the same...

Nico
March 12, 2005

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=262066&lid=2&cpid=8&title=Henry+denies+blaming+board&channel=Football_Home...and there was I thinking I was missing a point per your last post, USM, cos I assumed Henry WAS indeed blaming or firing a warning at the board. Nothing seems to be further from the truth, and again we read between the lines a pledge of loyalty and love for the Club from this wonderful character. It's the press all over again, surprise surprise, spinning a saleable story for its anti-Arsenal readership and I fell for it. Oh well, it can happen to even the most wary.

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

Well, after we win, there goes the 'special relationship' ; ) http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/3456836

DaveM
March 12, 2005

We'll have a far better idea of what we want to buy come the summer. I think the central defenders are good enough (although maybe tomorrow will change my mind). Has Cygan had a genuninely bad game this season? He's certainly had fewer than Toure and Campbell. I can't see us having a better 4th choice centre-half than Cygan, as players don't like being left off the bench for long (unless you play for Chelsea and you just want to be at the club everyone is talking about). Toure doesn't need pushing - I've never seen a more dedicated, hard working player - he needs nurturing. We aren't going to 'replace' Campbell a few months after re-signing him, and Senderos is 20 and needs to be playing (90 minutes) now in order to learn. A goalkeeper is still probable, and Wenger might replace Edu (but that means 5 central midfielders, which means Cesc or Flamini will go weeks without playing - is that really what we want? Selling Gilberto is the answer). At this stage I'd settle for a keeper, SWP and getting rid of the deadwood attacking players who've failed in Europe so often. That's Ljungberg, Pires and probably Bergkamp. If the young players keep developing, things will be ok.

US Martin
March 12, 2005

Nico my case doesn't rest on anything as I was not presenting a case, although you missed one key point, or maybe I didn't present it clearly enough which is that if bothered enough by what he perceives as a lack of support for the team and manager from the Board a player like Henry could easily leave even if Wenger stays on. But anyway, my point from the beginning is simply that the Board is there to ensure that Arsenal run stably and at a profit(which they DO have a stake in)and that that dictates as many decisons as needs on-the-pitch, and that sometimes the lean too much to the former at the expense of the latter, like any board can and will. That is reality, not some case against anyone. I agree 100% - it IS frustrating. But the real point is that while they may be able to smooth things over, how many times can anyone do that? Why not just be smart and be quiet? One thing we can both agree on is irregardless of who did or didn't do what or why, the window was closed so there was no point even discussing it at that point and risking the consequences that may or may not likely fall as a result, except in the manner I suggested earlier...

DaveM
March 12, 2005

Niall, in some games Ljungberg's job is to be an off the ball runner. Against good sides it isn't, his job is to be a right-sided midfielder. This is why against good sides he almost invariably disappears. Hence I refer to him as a luxury player - if our other players are playing well, in particular the other midfielders, then he has no job but to get into the box and score. However, against good sides 3 in midfield isn't enough. He's holding us back because he's one of the reasons the team can't play well against organised sides. Outnumbered, we never get control of the midfield against decent, organised sides. Our home performance against Chelsea was for me our best of the season (note: no Ljungberg). Cesc and Flamini deserve another chance. This summer we should let Pires and Ljungberg go. Vieira should be given the benefit of the doubt until he's played in a midfield where the wideleft and right players don't disappear (like away at SU). If Reyes wants to stay I'd stick with him for one more year, but if he still wants to go then we should sell him. Then we should buy SWP and, if Reyes goes, a wide left player. I read today in a broadsheet that Wenger would have sold Gilberto if he'd had a decent offer last summer. It's good that Wenger recognises that he isn't suited to English football (his reputation has benefitted from the fact he's been injured). Like Ljungberg he is a luxury - if the team is playing well then he will too, but if things are going badly he'll never turn the game. Remember last season when he lost his place in central midfield and we had the ridiculous sight of a wide right player who couldn't go past his man, couldn't tackle or cross, and who mainly passed backwards? Hang on.........

Nico
March 12, 2005

Azinoz, Bored, Goonerguru, thanks for your comments. USM, I see that your big case against the self-interested, profit-motivated, money-obsessed Arsenal board now rests on, 1. Should KE have said anything and if so what?, 2. The spending of lots of money before planning permission was obtained. That's quite an efficient distillation of all the bombast that's gone before. I won't comment any longer on it, except to say that KE is well known to everyone at the Club, and if Wenger chooses to get the hump, then I'm sure KE, or the PR consultants or Fiszman or Dein, will be mobilised to smooth his ruffled feathers. Luckily (or something), Wenger doesn't seem to be that complex. On the second point, yes, maybe there were mistakes, though I don't know where or how, but we all make them from time to time (don't you?), and all's well that ends well. On to chocolate - Wenger spent around £23m last calendar year and has more available this year. Brilliant board, brilliant Wenger, wouldn't Spurs love to be in this position? Now if Reyes flops, it won't be £17m but it will be a waste of a chunk of £9m, and in that you're right, but £17m is the number you have to enter in the accounts as it's a contingent liability. If he flops I dare say the remaining £8m will become available as a boost to the transfer kitty, but that will also depend (and should) on how much we can sell him on for (and any possible sell-on obligations to Seville over time). I know, let's buy lots of seemingly cheap players on this basis and you'll see how fast it'll all go out of control. The correct number to quote is for the moment, therefore, £17m, the one quoted to OFEX as being what the cost could amount to over time. Secondly I said Wenger has, on the whole, been more successful buying players at very good (low) prices, and may not change that policy approach too much with lots more money available. I cited Weah as a trademark Wenger-style signing, and contrasted this with Wiltord, without ever claiming Sylvain was a flop. He wasn't and he isn't. Claro? The Weah type of transfer is more Wenger's style and policy. He has deeply subtle feelings of worry about a price affecting a player's morale (especially if it all goes pear-shaped), far stricter valuations of outstanding contract periods, a view of the impact a transfer may have on team spirit, and so on, sentiments way beyond what might occur to the likes of Mourinho and Ferguson. Above all he cares as much about the Club's overall finances, if not more, as all the board at Arsenal put together. So none of what I wrote is a criticism. But he WAS undeniably responsible for the Reyes deal, and that's a fact, 100%, as he was also responsible for signing Henry, and the reason I said that is because it is disingenuous of you or anyone to claim Arsenal spent only £5.4m last year as the papers are spinning it, and that it is equally wrong to blame the board entirely for the strictures placed on spending by the AG project. Wenger has been bold with us, raising us to heights we could never dream of without him, and many risks have been taken to get to where we are. For vision alone, he's been more than brilliant for us and for the board, and I'm more than satisfied with his financial performance in both general (e.g the new stadium goal) and specific terms (the odd bad deal amongst countless good ones). Finally it's absurd to argue we are not entitled, particularly the shareholders, to look for returns on the Club's investment. We don't want to go the way of Leeds, and Wenger has said that often enough, so we all agree. I'd rather end up potless than Arsenal suffer that fate.The board runs this club very responsibly, it's one of the best run clubs in the world, and what's more is achieving massive targets which would not be possible without a great manager/coach in charge of the playing side. Of course Wenger is entitled to fail once in a while - I never said he wasn't.

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

Just heard from another site (sorry no links) that Scott Parker has agreed to move to Brum. As much as I thought Parker was a jerk the way he acted at Charlton when Chelsea came calling and how much pleasure I took seeing him not succeed there, I have always thought he was a quality player. He's a good buy for them. With him and Pennant in the midfield, and another Chelsea reject in Melchiot, I think they are on their way to being a solid top 10, if not top 8 team in the not too distant future. I also thought he'd be a reasonably good replacement for Edu.

chocolate gooner
March 12, 2005

Do Arsenal fans even know what they want? Do we even have an effing clue what is good for our club? Not so long ago the cry on this forum was, “why doesn’t Wenger play the youngsters? Why is he so conservative?” Now we have some truly gifted youngsters the cry is, “Why aren’t we breaking the bank? Why aren’t we signing ready made world-class talent?” that the two demands fairly contradict each other seems to pass most of our fans by, which is hardly surprising since both demands tend to issue from the same lips. Even with a transfer Kitty of 40m GBP what can Wenger realistically expect to buy in terms of world-class talent? SWP will probably set you back some 18mGBP and he ain’t even world-class. Ledley King ain’t all that either but he will set us back at least a further 15mGBP and he won’t take us any further in the ECL. Who are these players who will arrive and make an immediate-ish impact who are available, won’t cost the earth and whose wage demand won’t send our entire pay structure into the stratosphere. In all the talk about passengers and the such-like no one has mentioned what a non-passenger will demand in wages. This side is getting better… we don’t need any radical surgery, what we do need is a few quality players to replace those who may well leave in the summer like Edu… we need someone to challenge both Lauren (Eboue might well be good enough, who knows) and especially Ljungberg. And we need another class CB because Kolo’s form has been spasmodic to say the least and, as EEG said, Sol seems increasingly injury prone and above all else we need a Keeper… but who to sign? That’s the question. What we definitely don’t need is a whole bunch of so-so pros who’ll block the continued progress that the likes of Quincy, Cesc, Clichy, Van Persie, Senderos, Flamini and even Hoyte have all made this season. These guys all seem to have the ability to step up and in my view to deny them the opportunity to do so just because of the impatience of some fans will be criminal. We can’t afford the Adrianos or the Kakas of this world and no one can guarantee that a 15m GBP player will make the impact that we all expect, furthermore the idea of signing some old, declining force of a player, the way we signed Davor Suker all those years ago is just so laughable. Any calm and rational contemplation of our so-called predicament will tell you that going out there and signing a whole bunch of quality players for only £40m is not very likely. Whatever Wenger does he’ll be gambling… bringing in a whole lot players will guarantee us nothing in terms of winning things; what it might do, though, is disrupt the spirit in the camp. Success isn’t going to be easy, especially now that Chelsea not only have a benefactor awash with dosh but also a coach who is astute and technically savvy… so there you have it… nothing is going to be easy no matter how much bellyaching our fans engage in on this forum!! I still believe. PTBAG. Cheers all and goodnight.

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

I am not completely happy with Vieira but I don't want him sold. If he says he will leave this summer, I wouldn't stand in front of the Highbury changing room begging him to stay either, I'd take the money and try to get Gerrard. I still maintain that we will win the majority of our games with him, can still the win the title and/or FA cup with him but not go the long road to a CL final with him (and possibly some of our other players). Whatever some of us may not like about him, he is respected by his teammates and the team feels more confident with him on the pitch. So, assuming he stays, all we can do is surround him with good, quality players who have some 'bottle to them. A quality back 5 is a good start. I have a feeling we're going to see a Toure`, Senderos, Campbell, Cole and a new GK next season with Eboue` playing regularly because Campbell will miss a lot of games due to injury. I also think within the next 2 years we will need to find his long-term replacement. He (like Campbell) will miss more games next year than this year. Both players are getting more and more injury prone and they both play a lot of international games in the summer. If either retires from international footie they can prolong their domestic career but I don't see either doing it unless they a) get the type of injury that makes doing both almost impossible (i.e. Keane, Shearer a few years ago) or b) they lose their starting position (John Terry may be looked to, to partner Rio).

Truegooner
March 12, 2005

Its about time we flattened that fat chopped crunch merchant.No tame capitulation from the team.Lets kick some Bolton Arse tomorrow.COME ON YOU REDS!!!!!!!

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Jimmy, i have watched (and even paid for !), Chelsea a lot this season, and i find them to be perfectly honest,well boring. The game the other night was the exception to the rule and not the norm. Those managers you mention also voted Ronaldo in front of Henry last year and Ronaldinho this time, so what do they know then?. Mourinho at the moment is the most succesful manager at winning trophies so obviously must be doing something right, but there are better teams out their then them, and there as also been an element of good fortune enjoyed by the 'boring one' which sooner or later will desert him, it always does luck being a transient thing, that winning goal against Barca on another night will get scrubbed out, round abouts and swings. Remember according to the law of the old west a Colt 45. beats four aces.

C.L. Scout
March 12, 2005

I believe Wenger should not tinker too much by getting rid of some players. Instead he should concentrate on adding proven footballers to the squad which he has more or less stated he'll do in the summer. A keeper and central defender are the two top priorities in my estimation. The two players who come to my mind are Cudicini(Chelsea) and Kufour(Bayern Munich). Irrespective of who he picks Wenger will be on the right track if he pursues proven talent. The competition gets tougher and tougher every season and new blood needs to be added for a team to keep up. Chelsea have really upped the ante.

Mee
March 12, 2005

Gooner 7: There have been lots of postings recently concerning the form of Reyes and how this has been influenced by ‘off the field’ problems. Most people seem to be sympathetic towards him and are prepared to give him time to realise his undoubted potential. My point about Vieira is that he has had similar problems (aborted move to RM), which, combined with constant changes within the team and his own injury problems have affected his performances to the point where some people are clamouring for a change of leadership at the club. You mention his occasional wayward passing in your posting, but this has always been a feature of his game. Ryan Giggs would not have scored that sublime goal in the cup semi-final if his pass had been accurate, and this at a time when he was generally considered to be one of the finest midfielders in europe, if not the world. Someone suggested that he has not been the same player since Petit left for Barca, and I think there is some truth in that. Is it that he is simply trying to do too much, because the responsibility of captain demands that you lead by example. Perhaps he is not suited to the role of captain if we believe that Roy Keane supplies the perfect template for that role. Vieira’s temperament is not suited to imitating that kind of captain’s response, he leads by quiet example. I have a feeling that the armband was initially given to him as a sweetner for staying with the club after Tony Adams retirement.

AmericanGooner
March 12, 2005

M17, I think Senderos is our future captain as well. He's captained at every level of youth sides on the national team in Switzerland. **** For the first time in a while I'm looking forward to the summer and what new developments will happen. In a strange way, some of our problems may make Wenger face them head on now and do some things that he normally would not have. After '03, he made changes. Some as minor as the players have to be in a hotel for home and away matches. And with a new attitude we went unbeaten. This season he's called each player into his office, which wouldn't have been done before. Expect some other things in the summer and I expect a much improved Arsenal mentally next season. As for the rest of the season, the FA cup obviously. I am hoping we get Man Utd (although I wouldn't shed a tear if Soton knocks them out) in the semis, knock them out and the scum in the final for a great end of season game. Runner up in the league at least and beating Chelsea at the Bridge. **** goonerguru, you don't know what you're missing, but someone will have to tell you this since you never read it. ; )

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 12, 2005

Jens Lehmann is in trouble with UEFA for soaking a referee. European football's governing body are set to discipline the Arsenal goalkeeper after the incident with Massimo de Santis on Wednesday night. If Mr Wenger was pondering about how much a new keeper will cost over the Summer, then his mind will surely be made up now!

US Martin
March 12, 2005

I was just curious IORP, as I'm just outside New York and you were posting away at 4 AM your time then while I was crashing out at midnight. Well done. I need to start working out again...

US Martin
March 12, 2005

Nico, respect to your decision not to fully disclose how you obtain your knowledge as it is fairly obvious, and I'll leave that at that. I have no brief with the Board over the funding or why it is unavailable. Yes, I am frustrated by that. But my singular complaint now is how the Board, or specifically Edelman, spoke publicly when it would have been easiest NOT to make such a remark and still reassure season ticket holders. Such a statement even if partially or wholly true could only damage relations between the Board and Wenger, and the only sensible context for that staement then would be to dismiss Wenger. I think you are in a position to know whether that is happening now, but I think it is safe to say that is not anyone's open agenda at Arsenal. So why make that statement when short of that it could only alienate Wenger and/or his players as Henry's recent quotes may be proof of. The point is the real concern is the damage the quotes can do not whether there was money or not or why now. We can't change that there was no money no matter why. Everyone knows money was tighter because of Ashburton Grove and that was to be expected. The problem is this is causing friction that could lead to serious damage that will be entirely self-inflicted, as in this kind of reckless disdain, intended or otherwise for Wenger will lead him to leave and he will take the heart of the team with him, or they will lose all heart without him.As for assigning fault to the Board for AG, the only complaint I ever had solely toward them was using 50 million pounds of the club's money BEFORE receiving formal permission to commence the project, which was a gamble by any definition, and a gamble of funds that could have been used to strengthen the team. It was that decision that is the basis of any questions I have about what the priorities of the Board or individual members are as that was a reckless decision that seemed to put the team as a lesser priority, and had the ground never been broken we would be out 50 million pounds and back at back at square one. But make no mistake Wenger has advocated AG from day one and is a major reason AG is going up at all. But I will return to my main point, which is that had the Board stayed quiet or issued a more prudent statement I would have no concern whatsoever. The issue of whether money was availbale or when is moot now. The issue of whether the comments have opened a rift between the Board and Wenger and worse players like Henry and Vieira is hardly moot though. And THAT is the real issue now, not whether the Board are Gooners or not or how much they make or don't ...

Gooner7
March 12, 2005

Gooner Mee said ".......As a result Vieira’s confidence, belief and authority have been undermined to the point where he indeed, looks a shadow of the player he can be......" If Vieira is as good as he should be, and as a Captain at that, he should be performing at the highest level no matter what. As a Captain and with such heightened status, he should be bossing the game each time our younger players can't carry the team. He is NOT ALLOWED to slackened because he is the CAPTAIN, and his responsibility is to HEIGHTEN the cohesive team play. You see him losing the ball because of his casualness. He assumes the ball, without much effort, would find an Arsenal player. How many times has he lost the ball in this way, and that our defence had to double back and defend? I would like to do a research of the number of goals resulting from this. How many times has he casually strode the ball, and lose it, and again see our defence double back? How many times has he been intercepted from a pass because he casually expected the ball to roll to his feet? In all three scenarios, anything less than 50% is NOT acceptable. He is a world class midfielder, or once was, and he is the CAPTAIN. When he is in his element, he is great and hugely admired. Sadly, we are seeing fewer and fewer of these days. Stop being casual with your play Vieira. The team needs your leadership, and it means shouting at your own players to get the fight going.

Jimmy
March 12, 2005

Cannon Balls, wake up mate. How do you account for the 3 goals Chelski scored in the first 30 minutes? Mourinho had the Barca defence in jitters by playing Gudjohnsen deep and opening up their defence (aptly demonstrated by Duff's goal.) A consensus of European coaches recently voted Mourinho as the best tactician in the game today. By the way the score against Barca was 4-2 in case you've forgotten. You've got Mourinho stuck in your craw in addition to Sir Alex.

GARY
March 12, 2005

The latest spoutings from our illustrious leader espouse exactly why fans of God's own football team get somewhat perplexed.One minute we have the thought of a minimum of 2 established "stars" in the pipeline.Now we have "We can deal with that (injuries) but the answer has to come from our team rather than spending money on big stars because we have some upcoming players who can do really well" Owen,Essien,Gerrard.Yeah,right.Nothing will change

steve martin
March 12, 2005

Dave D... The club is to blame for a lot of that, they should call a press con and tell the media, why pick on us... Everything seems to be blown up 100% more for us, yet we have a lot less money than the two above us... Any normal times would have the media attacking the rich club for under performance, but then that club is Man Utd, the medias darlings.. See Ya! have a good weekend!!!

david.d
March 12, 2005

you are so right bristol gooner. man utd go out as do barcelona and real madrid yet we 'crash' out. man utd in the last few years have spent in excess of 90 million pounds on rooney ferdinand van nistlerooy etc yet apart from the title we handed to them on a plate in 02/03 and the fa cup last season what headlines do they get for being in crisis.what ridicule is aimed at them? crisis NO! but as soon as its our club we now face a fight to hang onto our players and we are in crisis. what we have done with our spending has been nothing short of phenomenal. had we not handed the 02/03 title to utd that would have been 3 titles in the row. its time a few more people looked at alex ferguson(i wont dignify him with the sir)and less at our manager.

Vince Ordinaire
March 12, 2005

Rambling thoughts in no particular order - Perhaps for the right reasons, the clubs management (Arsene and the board) have made decisions that have derailed our season. Arsene is having probably his first poor season (meaning his personal performance) since his arrival. The fact that this has caused such mayhem (albeit we are still third behind the two richest clubs in the world, etc, etc) shows how important he is to us. This is the hangover from last year. Luck we enjoyed in games, and with injuries has deserted us. I expect we will bounce back next year. The experience the young players have gained will be invaluable, but I wonder what major(ish) changes Arsene has in mind. At least we know money will be spent, but how much of an overhaul is really needed? I am not sure, the dividing line between success and failure can be wafer-thin. Reading the site but not posting recently I have seen a lot of good stuff, but also seen how fickle we can be. I think Arsene must react, but not over-react. To those advocating dismantling the squad I say look how much the loss of experienced peripheral players has cost us this year. Yes we need to make room for the newcomers, but it would be nice to have the luxury of a deep squad for a change. Shrewd financial mangement has made this a realistic possibility for the first time in years, so I would rather not lose the likes of Vieira, Ljungberg and Lauren unless we are offered silly money -and even then reluctantly. Senderos could be a crucial player for us. He looks capable of galvanising the whole back five, which in turn will take pressure of the front six. Many of our perceived weaknesses this year, might just melt away with more security at the back. Let's hope he (Senderos) stays injury free and continues to progress. I hope he is captain before too long as he has already shown organisational skills way above any other contenders, my only worry being if senior players could handle the appointment of a junior player as captain. Vieira has been disappointing, although on the field my only real worry is his increasingly errant passing. But he just isn't the captain we need. Perhaps his play would improve if he was relieved of that responsibility. Obviously perhaps not. Reyes loss of form is the big question. Perhaps the combination of the OT kicking, the England v Spain debacle and the Aragones row have all added to any problems settling in, which he wasn't showing before those events. His decline, along with Gilberto and Campbell's long absences have hurt us the most. I still believe in his talent, but personally prefer him as a free-running striker to left wing. I think we have suffered hugely by not playing Pires when available at left wing. I don't think he's even half the player on the right. I hope we can use our squad more wisley next year, resting the big and ageing stars at the right times and easing the youngsters in. I don't think this season should have been a transitional year, but it's turned out that way. The best medicine rarely tastes sweet. Keep the faith.

steve martin
March 12, 2005

I can't believe the fuss over what TH14 said about Arsenals spending... The Mirrors headline, we do not even compete with Spurs, well there's a shocker, when was the last time they were even near us, shows how bad that club is run and how well Arsenal is run... We are headed up as losing our star players, yet no one wants to leave United... They just cannot wait to get stuck into us, makes you laugh that there are some who think the media are good to us... Bye, Have a good weekend!!!

steve martin
March 12, 2005

No player is safe from the football fans frustration... Poor season, get rid of them all, sack the manager... You couldn't make it up, could you... Senderos, as the new thing, then he was the bad thing, now his back to being the promising thing... Have a good weekend!!!

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Well Patrick if everyone used Bourinho's tactics the football woukld soon lose it's interest.It was Barca's kamikaze tactics that made the other nights game entertaining plus Bourinho was forced by being a goal down to attack.I noticed that he did not look happy about it either.Lets see if he tries it against the Italian sides ,if he avoids the car-thives,who could also be a problem. I was thinking more of more adventurious set of alternative tactics than seizing your opponents GK by his arm and preventing him from saving a free kick.

Arsene Wenger
March 12, 2005

I love Patrick but he should get his head out of his arse!

Patrick
March 12, 2005

I'm a disgruntled Gooner. If Arsene had spent more time addressing the problems of the team rather than bitching with Red Nose and what is going on at Srtamford Bridge we might not be in quite the dire straits we're in today. More energy has been spent on excuses than problem solving. Arsene should also take a leaf out of Mourinho's book when it comes to tactical know how. I love Arsene but he needs to get his head out of his arse.

DHD
March 12, 2005

Despite the dawn start, I’m really looking forward to tomorrow. There’s really nothing like a good cup-tie in a foreign land. Steve Bennett is the Ref and if he reads his papers, I presume he’ll know what to expect of Sam Lardyarce and his bunch of mercenary thugs. Should be an interesting contest between JAR and FL8 to see who can jump the highest. Expect plenty of bookings and maybe some reds.

Bristol Gooner
March 12, 2005

Wonder what effect Kevin Keegan's departure will have on SWP's future plans?

Cannon Balls
March 12, 2005

Dave,yes i agree that the tactics are the problem , even when we have had our full team avaiable we have gone out of the CL. However i don't agree with your assement of M ourinho's tactical nous,he was rather fortunate last season at OT and again in the tie against Barca , i see him as being a motivator more than a tactician. Chelsea have conceded 6 goals in their last 3 CL ties and they will not win it doing that. Makelle who won the CL twice with RM says that Chelsea are still naive tactically wise and almost despite being 3-0 up chucked it away against Barca. Jap Stam says that AC Milan would prefer to play Chelsea than either of the other two Italian clubs ominously still left in the competition.My moneys already on Ac Milan and i have no reason from what i have seen to want to change it to any other club.

Dave
March 12, 2005

It is all about tactics and positioning. Mourinho has taught this to Chelsea. Never mind the money. Ranieri had similar funds and did not teach them much in terms of tactics. Arsene and Rice are not too clever in that sense either. No matter who we buy, wecannot win the CL without tactical maturity. I wonder what Mourinho would achieve with our squad of the last couiple of years

Bryan
March 12, 2005

AmericanGooner - I don't usually post on this site but I have to pick you up on the disservice that you have done to Dan Marino. While he never won the Superbowl it was because he didn't have the team around him to do so, you could hardly question his Q/B credentials or leadership qualities....his 4th quarter comebacks are legendary. Patrick Vieira he ain't.

steve martin
March 11, 2005

As James Lawton, that famous Arsenal fan said after our match against Sheff Utd, Arsene Wenger was not taking the FA Cup seriously by putting out a weak side, yet of we beat Bolton it will be the 5th year running wehave reached the Semi Final, that my friends is not taking the Comp seriously...

DHD
March 11, 2005

For me there are 2 distinct issues when it comes to any analysis of PV4 and his current value to the team. In the first instance, I doubt many would argue that he isn’t playing particularly well. He may have picked up his game recently but he was pretty poor in the early part of the season; I believe he’s been on a steady decline now for 2 years. On occasions this season, he should have been subbed or indeed dropped. He just doesn’t get near the heights of the good old days and that’s particularly sad for those of us who remember him as the young lion who took the premiership by storm. He was a one man midfield who swept all before him. At 29, he should be in his prime now but he’s looking increasingly as though he’s past his best. So the reason some of us have a particular ‘down’ on him at the moment is that good player though he undoubtedly still is, we remember him when he was twice the player he’s become. Secondly, there’s his performance as a captain. In this sense, I don’t think we can overestimate the damage he has caused to the club, the team and the supporters in the past 2 close seasons with his ill-disguised ambitions to leave for something or somewhere he considered to be better. In particular, his performance last summer was insulting in the extreme and no amount of weasel words and excuses could repair the injuries he caused to the whole Arsenal community who felt slighted by the callous and shallow behaviour of their figurehead. That famous ‘Vieira’ chant that used to raise the roof is rarely heard these days and I doubt his standing is much higher in the dressing room; there’s a reason for that. He broke the trust.

steve martin
March 11, 2005

http://www.arsenal-mad.co.uk/news/loadfeat.asp?cid=EDZ6&id=210770

Cannon Balls
March 11, 2005

Niall, i don't know where i am supposed to 'wise up' from on my criticism of Vieria ?. Because i stressed those points that you raised. I was pointing out that Vieria's want away again last summerto the Madrid Pimps was not helpful to Wenger and could have had a detrimental impact on our season; and that Vieria like in Munich, failed to inspire the team of which he is the captain yet again in the CL the other night,i never once saw him remonstrate with anyone like TA would have if he had seen players performing like some of ours were, Ljungberg in particular needed a good kick up the arse. I stated at the time of his decision, albeit a somewhat reluctant one to stay at Highbury, that we needed him and i am glad that he did stay. However if he is going to come out in public with statements about the teams performances in the CL over his time at the club, then we are entitled to question his contribution, and in the view of many supporters overall it's not been that great. Domestically it's a different story, but as Roy Keane has discovered after his alleged new found form the EPL and the CL are two different equations.

chocolate gooner
March 11, 2005

Nico… a few things about your post. 1) It is wrong to imply that Reyes cost us 17mGBP. He didn’t. He might cost us that much if both he and us are successful, in which case it would be extreme good value for money. The figure from memory is in the region of 9m GBP. 2) To say that you are ENTITLED to expect a return on the money we spent which is even by your accounts a miniscule fraction of what our rivals have spent seems, to me at least, to absolutely defy logic. Given what we’ve spent (even by your reckoning)… we should be cock-a-hoop at where we are… not having a distinctly dodgy analysis which some how comes to conclusion that Reyes’ transfer money would end being wasted… how do you know this? To best of my knowledge Reyes market value hasn’t collapsed and neither are we looking to off load him. If the board want a GUARANTEE of winning trophies they’ll have to MATCH or better the expenditure of the only other serious contenders for trophies in the EPL and those are the Chavs and ManUre. You can’t EXPECT to win trophies just because you gave a reputed miracle worker an amount of money that even you will have to admit is peanuts in comparison. 3) Wenger has the right to fail in the transfer market. Mourinho spent £70m and still got Kezman and Drogba… and let Crespo go. We won’t even go into Fergie’s record. 4) My point is not that Wenger is perfect or that he is beyond criticism… just that trying to criticise him for signing Reyes’ reeks of being wise after the event - and even then, not all that wise either. Reyes is seriously gifted but he appears to be having real trouble settling in England, now, it’s easy to be wise after the event and say that we should have spotted that someone with his background might have problems settling in a place like London, but the likes of Kolo and Fabregas had made the transition (one is from a poor 3rd world country, the other came over as a mere 15y/o) so you can’t rule anyone out. So those of you banging on about Reyes’ supposed failure should tell me if you were all calling him a poor signing at the beginning of the season or questioning his mettle after he smashed that goal against Chelsea last season. 5) To quote Thierry Henry’s alleged antipathy towards Reyes as evidence of any failure on Reyes’ part is a bit rich. Henry is a senior Pro as well leader of the squad… it is part of his job to see that a gifted youngster integrates with the squad instead of glaring at every misplaced pass or error from Reyes… and TH14 whilst a great player and an inspirational character isn’t the font of all wisdom. Who was it that suggested we needed a Fox-in-the-box following the loss in the FA cup to Liverpool? TH14, that’s who. 6) On the issue of money, you seem to be implying that not only has money made no difference to us (think we could have had Rio instead of Cygan, Van Divealot ) but that Wenger wouldn’t know how to spend it even if we gave him the money, and as evidence you cite Wiltord and Reyes. So my questions are; how bad a footballer is Wiltord… and who else in his price bracket has had a career as good as his? Why is Reyes a flop exactly? It seems nowadays a player isn’t even allowed the time to fail. 7) I know that we all need someone to blame but sometimes there is no blame to be attached to anyone. Wenger hasn’t done too badly considering the injuries we’ve had this season and if there wasn’t the class of player he wanted available in the window… what was he to do, sign any old warm body to appease the fans? The board have been astute and diligent in marshalling the clubs resources whilst acquiring a world-class stadium. Henry is smarting because we’re out of the ECL if even Fergie’s arch apologist, Mr. Lawton, is aware of the utter freakishness of Chelski… the question is, why aren’t most of our fans? Cheers.

Jamie Davis
March 11, 2005

We only got 3,500 tickets for tomorrow, and they are still on general sale. It's the FA Cup Quarter final for God's sake. I've missed 4 games this season. Don't get me wrong, that does not make me a better supporter than somebody who has missed 10 or 12, but a club of our size should be able to take up to 10,000 to a game like this. Do you not agree?? I know I never post here, though I frequently read the posts and think that there is alot of sense spoken here. I am just fed up of seeing our away support dwindling. Liverpool, Everton, Man City, Man United, Newcastle, Spurs, Chelsea and Villa have all brought more fans to away matches this season than us, what is the problem?? I would be very interested to hear what ecerybody has to say? Am I missing something?

tom
March 11, 2005

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,1563,1435162,00.htm...we really have got to beat the charmless git tomorrow. C'MON ARSENAL.

jeremy
jere_arsenal@yahoo.com
March 11, 2005

And...we have to think of some ways to neutralise the 'sick' 5 man midfield-tactic deployed by some clubs against us.For the past 7 years,whenever we faced such tatic.We would either lose the game or be held to a draw.This is esp so when they have some really tough tacklers or dirty rogues.

jeremy
jere_arsenal@yahoo.com
March 11, 2005

Thinking for the past few days,suddenly realised why Vieira looked poor after Petit left.He lacked a partner that gives him absolute confidence.For the past few seasons,his partner had been constantly changed.He,just like Henry will need a new partner come this summer.In Flamini,you see the bulldog spirit of Parlour and he is able to pass the ball well too.But all in all,we still need to buy this summer.We'll have to change our poor man's mentality to become big.

Niall
March 11, 2005

Ok Bernard, three - it was two at the time I had the argument with you which is why it stuck in my mind. Little odds to the point, I think he played around 30 games.

Bernard
March 11, 2005

Factually incorrect about the number of goals Wiltord scored for Arsenal in the Champions League, Niall. Without even trying, I can remember one rebound from a Henry penalty he scored at the Clock End (can't remember the opposition), another against Ajax at the Clock End, and away at Schalke04. Brett, while he is capable of good short runs of form, I think it is time for Bergkamp to retire this summer.

Niall
March 11, 2005

The criticism of Vieira is getting well over the top and is approaching the boundary of absolute rubbish. It's accepted that Vieira's standards have slipped this season but in the past couple of weeks Vieira has been driving the team forward and been playing a vital role this season when you consider he has been partnering an inexperienced Cesc for the majority of it. Against Bayern, Vieira was put under immense pressure as soon as the ball came near him, from, oh yeah, just another world class midfielder in Ballack plus his two partners. Their closing down was immense and yet do people still expect Vieira to win the game for us on his own? He had a decent enough game on the whole, not his best by some margin but with Bergkamp, Reyes and Ljungberg putting on a dreadful show, who was he to give the ball to anyway when he did get some space. People need to wise up. Vieira remains a class player and integral to our set up. If we lost him, it would be a blow no doubt. At best, at least now the opinion that his departure may not result in a critical loss has a bit more legs but without him this season we'd have been well and truly in trouble and perhaps soem should give that some consideration. And as for Flamini and Cesc against Chelsea, they had a good 20 or so minutes in that game when we got on top, which also coincided with Mourinho having changed tactics to a 4 in midfield which he later changed as we took over. They could be a great partnership, but its far far too soon to thrown them in together.

M17
March 11, 2005

You know, I was just thinking...if Senderos continues his form and gets better, would he be a potentially ideal captain for the future?(perharps even the near future...considering Pat's manner of captaincy). Guts, determination, he does seem to have the the authority, especially among the youngsters? Just wanted to know your views...

Cannon Balls
March 11, 2005

BG, yes i agree that Vieria was not our worst player wednsday night.But his performance and leadership in the away leg in Munich was not very inspiring,and unfotunately these like his annual want away to Madrid are in the CL all too frequent. He tends to point at others in inthe team but should also examin his own performances too. I thought that when he did find the space at Highbury the other night against the Germans ,that his passing was very poor and he kept giving the ball away. And at the end was wandering around looking like he had totally lost the plot.Perhaps the captaincy is too much for him and someone else should releve him of it's burden. We are not however in that department spoilt for choice!.

Niall
March 11, 2005

DaveM: Lets face it, if you are going to start with "Ljungberg has held us back for years" then your opinion has already lost credibility before you even begin. While I can accept a number of criticisms re: Ljungberg (and most of my arguments in favour of Ljungberg have always been based on the belief that he was a better option than Wiltord) the facts are that most of the success we have had in Europe (and lets face it - it isn't much ) have often involved a vital contribution from Ljungberg. You can think of goals from him, well sorry for the sarcasm but lets have a round of applause for that observation. And deary me but isn't the game of football all about scoring more than your opponent? The "league 2" comments and "running around" aren't really constructive at all..in fact they are a load of biased rot. The simple facts are DaveM, that Ljungberg's job is to be an off the ball runner and get into the box and score goals. At this, he has proven to be world class and yes a lot of it is due to the valuable contributions of his team mates, but yet I don't read of many players who score goals all by themselves!! I've said for some time now that I would like to see someone new on the right, but then I've been saying for a long time that we aren't good enough in Europe; that we need to add a little more to our attacking approach - see Cole's comments in the paper today and he agrees - that teams worked out how to play us in Europe (particularly at Highbury) quite some time ago. I think the blindfolds are now dropping from some fans eyes. Chocolate - as I mentioned before, Wiltord scored 2 goals in Europe for us which is more relevant that what he is doing at Lyon. Since you ask, I'm glad to see Lyon do well because they are an attractive outfit and play good football.

steve martin
March 11, 2005

http://www.arsenalshorts.com/ebay_cfc_html.htm

goonerguru
March 11, 2005

Arsene has always been very loyal to his players and dedicated to 4-4-2 and why not they and the system has brought him a lot of success and at the moment he will be pissed off like everyone else,but come the summer who knows what his thinking may be.Most supporters would be looking at maybe not wholesale changes but quite an influx of new ones,there is an old saying that says "if it's not broke then don't fix it"the question is does Wenger think it's broke or just needs a tweak or two.

goonerguru
March 11, 2005

Azinoz
March 11, 2005

Everyone on this site is entitled to their view but there does seem at times to be a very negative attitude from some posters. There is no doubt that AW and the Board have made a number poor management decisions and are rightly questioned over them but for the past 7 years we have been treated to arguably the best club football ever seen (certainly in England). No team in he world can keep doing it year after year and periodically you have to take one step backwards to make two steps forward. Under AW's stewardship we have gone from a normal top six finisher to a top two finisher , we have genuine world class players on the books something we have never had before( Dennis Bergkamp excluded), we probably have more young talent coming through than any other club, we have a world class stadium under construction and we have more sponsorship than ever before.We are in a period of unprecedented growth and here we are complaining about -not enough wingers, dead ball situations and tactical incompetence.Yes of course we can improve but to seriously critisise the current management for our "rapid demise" into third place and expulsion from the Champions League as a failure is because we have all been spoilt by the success they have helped provide. I've seen them all George Swindon, Billy Wright,Bertie Mee and George Graham to name just a few and I can tell you Arsene Wenger leaves them all for dead.I will take dodgy wingers, poxy corners and a f---ed up defence over what I have been treated to over the last forty years for sure. Wake up and smell the roses.

Bristol Gooner
March 11, 2005

Oh and one other thing, why is it that only Arsene Wenger has to fight to keep hold of his stars after 'crashing' out of the Champions League while Barcelona, Man Utd and Real Madrid can just look forward to next year. Journalists, I **** 'em

Bristol Gooner
March 11, 2005

While I agree that Vieira has been well below par this season I think some of the criticism aimed at him for Wednesday is a touch harsh. He wasn't our best player but he was by no way our poorest, every time he received the ball he was surrounded by 2 or 3 Bayern players which was part of their tactics. They could afford to concentrate on Vieira because Flamini wasn't going to do so much damage going forward with his more limited passing range. It was no surprise that our goal came from a long ball by-passing the midfield or that we had more joy when Fabregas gave us another dimension going forward. Munich played a very, very good tactical game but the only reason they could was because of our awful performance over there. If you want to win the CL you can't afford a sloppy 20 minutes, let alone 90. I'd imagine RVP will be given the chance to make amends tomorrow, probably partnering Reyes unless he plays on the wing and Wenger brings Alliadiere in. Perhaps our revenge against Bolton will come when everyone least expects it.

goonerguru
March 11, 2005

I have to admit to skipping over the posts from our American friends but posts from Nico,DHD and others I always read and Nico's responce yet again on the subject of the board/AW/AG was very well put together as is most of his posts and my advice to Nico is,please don't post on this subject again because if he's not got the point now he never will,spend your time on your real job get back up to speed with that and then you can get back to posting full time on here again,I thank you!

tom
March 11, 2005

I'm in shock. A balanced, objective piece by Lawton. Next thing you know Fat Sam won't mention the need for "strong referee" tomorrow.

Cannon Balls
March 11, 2005

I am not too concerned about Henry pointing out that the board had not given AW any money last summer, or that we have spent less on buying players than small clubs like Spuds and Brum. This was hardly info' that comes under the official secrets act but was already in the public domain. I suspect that Henry's timing was more due to the usual early exit from the CL and intended to divert attention away from that, and the flack that the players and AW duly recieve anually for it. One issue though that should be addressed is that which Vieria's role has had on our CL campaigns. Last summer Le Boss engaged in a titanic struggle to save Vieria from the clutches of the so-called Madrid-Galacticos, reminiscent in it's intensity with the Catholic Priest v Satan fighting over Megans soul in the Exorcist. This battle to expell Vierias, Real demons, used up much of AW's time at a crucial stage of the summers recess, and whatever thoughts he may have had of bringing in or shipping out players were lost amid the furore surronding Vieriagate. For instance, Cygan was said to be returning to France,a huge sigh of relief was heard around North London, but that deal like the hair on Cygans bonce disappeared off of the radar. Also i got the distinct impression that after Vieria for what ever reason decided to grace Highbury rather than Madrid with his presence that AW and most of us too for that matter felt like we had gained another player anyway. Sadly for most of the season this was not proven to be the case, although performances have on occasion since December been better, and a match winning one away to Sheffield United, along with a helping hand and foot from Almunia. But alas, once again cometh the test of the CL and that towering performance like against Warnocks cloggers was, 'awol', somehow we never get that big performance on the Euro stage from Vieria, and many suspect that we never will, and that is what's been diappointing about his career at Arsenal for many supporters. I am not saying that he did not try - he did, but again failed to produce it when needed. Compare Vieria's performances with Gerrards for the car-thives in this seasons CL and you can see why they are still in it - and we not. Going back to the board and the money question, we also must bear in mind that their first priority is the solvency of the club and keeping our independence from outside interests. Ask Leeds about it, or Manure supporters, who see the dreaded spectre of the American Smurf look-a-like lurching, ready to pounce,like a fat cat on a rat. The drunken jocks been tossing money around like confetti at a Glasgow wedding for years oblivious to any reasoning or control on his excesses. That will all end with the arrival of Malcom and his big wooly hat - and the £29 match-day tickets will disappear faster than the clubs money into Fergusons sons bank account.

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

USMartin: London. Battersea to be exact.

Azinoz
March 11, 2005

Nico ,you seem to have an opinion this , and inmy opinion - well said!!!

Flame Boy
March 11, 2005

flamini is not flashy or flamboyant but still exudes french flair, a fine player with fire and fight in him, won't flop or flinch but will flick and fetch to the forwards, is no fluke so stop giving him flak.

DHD
March 11, 2005

Mural – if PV4 thinks we haven’t improved in 7 years, he might ponder on his part in that record of failure. And if he does wants to escape, he’ll be pushing at an open door this time.

North Bank Mural
March 11, 2005

PV reported as saying that AFC's CL performances haven't improved in the last 7 years. If this is true, I think it is an ill-judged statement from the Club Captain, even though sadly, he is correct. Perhaps this is the first salvo in his annual escape attempt and based on his form overall this season maybe now is the time, hopefully it won't lead to a mass French exodus. We need a massive display at Bolton this weekend, defensively we held BM so why not Fat Sam's Kickers.Even minus TH we have plenty of potential scorers. I would like to see the raw talent and enthusiasm of either Quincy or Aliadiare, even both. Keep the faith.

Bored
March 11, 2005

Good post Nico. Its refreshing to read something thats based on fact rather than on the latest tabloid misquote. Talking of newspaper bollocks I'm still in shock by that sane Lawson article...

Nico
March 11, 2005

Steve, all I can say is...grrrrrr...but thanks for the compliment, mate - it was/is hard work indeed.

Long Time Gooner
March 11, 2005

Steve Martin; You mentioned that the Champions League is not a league and if it was what it said then there would be less chance of such as Liverpool getting through. In fact I would go so far as to say that if it was what it said then Liverpool wouldn't be in it at all having finished about 30 points behind the CHAMPIONS last season.

Steve c/o Coldiz
March 11, 2005

Thank you Nico-you saved me 2O minutes endevour to also scribe the reply.It is almost 1OO% factualy true,and well done in freindly,non aggresive manner.

Long Time Gooner
March 11, 2005

To 'Thanks Pat Rice'. Thanks for the URL post. Very interesting and well written article. Nice to have a balanced and rational view about our position.

Nico
March 11, 2005

USM, I have already informed you that Arsenal's directors do not make a dividend. Nor do any of the other shareholders. I have also informed you that the pay of the most important director/shareholder was £5000 last year. I did this because I read the accounts and you don't. Fiszman has independent means, I hear you cry, and you want to know why he doesn't inject some of them into the Club. How do you know he doesn't? Maybe he helped to buy the property that enabled the Club to achieve its victory with the banks over the stadium funding. Now I've had crap on here before about how I know things and I'm sorry if I can't disclose my sources for much of it; furthermore I bother to post it as I care about Arsenal fans, not to show off. But the accounts are available to everyone. Similarly it's common knowledge that Reyes accounted for most of last year's (approx) £22m transfer spending. OFEX (the little Stock Exchange where Arsenal are listed and where they have to declare the facts of their transfers) was told that this transfer could cost upwards of £17m over a period of time. Then there was a further expenditure of £5m on the likes of RVP and Almunia. The directors, the Club, its shareholders and fans are entitled to expect a return on their spending, especially on the most risky purchases, before more is spent. After all it was spent to help us win trophies, and Reyes helped in the second half of last season, but this season has been different in many ways and for a number of reasons, and may result in much of that transfer money being wasted. Yet, despite the returns on the Reyes transfer being questionable to say the least, the board comes the following year with an even bigger transfer kitty. And you fall for the spin that only £5.4m was spent in the summer, worse than WBA and Birmingham. Of course, if you want to put any spin on things you can - just go to a PR consultant, or read the tabloids. Wenger specialises in the bargain transfer, that is borne out by history, and by every club he's managed. At a club with more spending power than us, it's still not clear he'd do any better. He loves to pick up players cheaply and try to turn them into stars. George Weah is a crying example of a Wenger achievement, not Wiltord. It's worked so far and I don't think you'll see anything much radical from him to illustrate a departure from this policy. It has kept and developed Arsenal's team spirit admirably over nine years, as well as the Club as a whole, and the directors have helped immensely in allowing him to get on with the job without interference, whilst hero worshipping him everywhere (as he deserves) and being extremely supportive. Henry is rightly frustrated but, as he himself admitted, it's not his business to follow the financial facts closely. That stance in turn, though, makes it easier for him to blame the board than Wenger, who is the real reason for the £17m spent on Reyes, a player Henry has huge footballing, character, team spirit doubts about, and perhaps here he is more qualified to comment than on the financial side. I also find it disingenuous that people are blaming the board alone for the stadium's restrictions on Wenger's transfer funding. It was his idea in the first place to move ground, and he's gone along with Ashburton 100%. There were cheaper options but neither he nor most of the board wanted them. Furthermore the fans were asked and voted in the majority to stay local, and Wenger ringingly endorsed this decision more than once, quite publicly. Fans/shareholders were not told that this would be too expensive or more expensive than the other options. So where's the profit motive in taking that enormous risk which so nearly backfired and morphed into what could have been a major financial disaster? You may like to know how it was saved, but that's probably too factual for you, my friend. USM, you are as frustrated as everyone, and just as entitled to express it here, but when facts are brought before you and you are reminded of them, or laid before you for the first, second or umpteenth time, I really would expect the process to enlighten and refine your views just slightly. If I don't succeed with this post, I shall really, because sadly I'm rather busy with my daytime job, have to stop bothering so hard to reply to you on the particular subject of the Club's finances. Suffice to say, in conclusion, that I research these more actively than most, as I have quite a bit more riding on them than just my desire for the team to do well on the field of play, a desire which is common to all, including the board, of whom, I'm sorry to say, also, that I know a little more about than you, with all due respect.

3GS
March 11, 2005

Jabba,jabba,jabba,mohommed,mohammed,I think someones put a Jihad on me.When I find out who it is I'll put a Jihad on you too!!!!

US Martin
March 11, 2005

BTW just curious IORP - what part of the world are you in?

US Martin
March 11, 2005

But you have to break them down to match-to-match AND consider that as against Norwich, teams cannot play those tactics with the same effectiveness that first half-dozen matches or more because to develop the discpline and organization these tactics require takes time and especially since these are more or less one-off tactics. There is only one team that has used these these tactics regularly and that is Bolton and they are the only side to use these tactics earlier than October including this year. I will leave it at this for tonight cos I need SOME sleep - if we do not address the flaws in our game up front more and more teams will resort to these tactics meaning that even if we improve at the back inevitably we will drop the same points or more than this year as we will fighting to hold more of those narrow leads and won't hold all of them no matter how much stronger or stingier our defence is - every team will be pegged back on some occasion or occasions. If we are really going to go forward from here we need to address both ends of the pitch otherwise the only change will be in the goals for and against columns rather than our place in the table, and how exactly is that progress...

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

Interesting fact, we lie 12th in the table for goals conceded at home, and we've conceded more goals at home than Crystal Palace (17). No team can hope to win the league conceding that many goals at home.

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

USMartin: The problem that i have with your view is that we have scored 28 goals in 13 games against the teams in the bottom 7 places in the league. In only one of those 13 games did we fail to score. To break it down even further, we have scored (6) vs Palace, (2) vs Bolton, (3) vs Southampton, (4) vs Norwich so far, (5) vs Fulham , (3) vs Blackburn so far, (4) vs Portsmouth, (1) vs West Brom so far. I'm sure otherwise will agree the number of goals scored against these sides should mean we've picked up far more points than we've currently amassed, it simply doesn't hold water that we haven't been able to notch up goals against these sides, even with their adopted style of play against us. As the facts show otherwise. There are more obvious reasons that we've only managed to collect 26 points from 39 points against the teams at the bottom of the table.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

What too many people miss IORP, is that there are times where our defence is at fault but there are also times where our attack has not done its job. We don't have to score five every match but the point is if we can get five against teams aspiring to the top half of the table or better even than we should get more than one or two even against relegation fodder. And what is also missed is that there is a PATTERN here. It si no accident that since Bolton first adapted these tactics around the 2002 season more and more teams have gone not simply to the 4-5-1 as that is the formation of choice in all matches now for most sides, but the tactic of sitting deep for fully 75-80 minutes even after conceding as many of these teams do with six to nine men in the box behind the ball but standing up straight in front of our attackers. The 4-5-1 tactics Allardyce and others employ against are drastically different from ManUre's 4-5-1 which was used to compensate for Roy Keane's suspension and injury-enforced absence and physical decline in central mid-field. The 4-5-1 used against us is to ensure extra men behind the ball all match. Every year more teams adapt this tactic and we drop more points to it. That is why I point out we are not responding up-front. Not so much the players as the coaching staff, who are not encouraging to look for goals from crosses or to take advantage of numerous corners inevitably conceded to us from these tactics. I mean if we simply work on scoring SOME goals from corners at least it won't hurt our open play at all or hurt our goal-scoring will it? But it will produce enough extra goals to ensure we win most if not all of those type matches against those tactics or at least enough to ensure we don't toss the League away as we may have this year by not working at scoring those extra goals every team get more of than us. And ultimately getting those goals will force teams to abandon those tactics and allow us to win in the manner we so enjoy watching and the lads enjoy playing...

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

Sorry that first line should read...Because basic common sense should tell you that if your expected to score 5 goals....

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

Because basic common sense should tell you that if you should tell you that if your expected to score 5 goals per game consistently then you might as well pack up and goal home. Their is no 'belief' that we have the best attack in the league, it is a fact. We have scored the most goals in the league and yet we lie in third. But for some unknown reason are attack is where the fault lies.....hmmm, sorry don't buy that. We have scored 20 MORE goals than Man U and yet our goal difference is only 5 goals better off. You figure it out.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

The problem with your argument is that first it undercuts your own contention about our league-best attacking record. But more to the point - if we can get five goals against boro and s***s and four at Everton why sould we struggle against the likes of West Brom and Southampton to get one? The point is both arguments are the same really and hold the same water. I simply think the deficiencies at BOTH ends need to be addressed - as do a lot of professional wirters and football analysts who talked a lot about our aerial deficiencies after the Bayern match. That is all we really need to address up-front but it is foolish to suggest we need not do so or to ignore the problem to begin with. Especially based on simply looking at the goals-for column. Think this way-you're coaching your neighborhood youth side and you have to add one more striker and you have to pick from two who have very similar skills. The first scored 12 in ten matches the second ten in ten for their school teams, but one scored six goals in his first game and a hat trick in his third, while the other kid scored one goal in eight matches and two more in a ninth? Who would you say would help the team more? We all know the second would as he would be a more consistent scorer and help win more matches. So simply scoring more goals does not excuse inconsistency or underperforming against poorer sides. But that isn't even the point really. It isn't lack of effort or desire that's hurting us in those matches. It is that as Allardyce acknowledged we have been sussed out as a one-dimensional attackthat can be stopped by defenders that sit deep and are supported by midfielders sitting back with them simply leg and toe blocking every through-ball and body blocking the far-post runs. Our unwilling ness to meet the crosses played over the defence lets them off the hook, and our inability to take advantage of the numerous corners these teams happily concede only encourage these tactics more. Of course we shouldn't have to score more than a single goal ever but the last several years we have had to and that's the way it is, even last year. And this year we should be able to against these kind of sides. That we haven't is down to the fact that our one-dimensional attack has been figured out and we obviously were the last ones to know. The bottom line is our defensive frailties put us out of Europe. But in England our lack of attacking variety has hurt our cause far more. Both need to be addressed but to address only one no matter which will lead to continued disappointment...

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

USMartin: Alright then applying your logic, is this not a reasonable statement "in the Premiership even with the days where the attack was fully at fault we would still be far better off with the odd extra clean sheet against any number of sides". This is how you win championships. You have to rely on your defence on days when you're attack doesn't click. If you think you can win a title winning 2-1, 3-2 or 5-4 week in week out, you are gravely mistaken. Can i ask you how many more goals than rest do we need to score before it clicks that something isn't quite right. There's only so many occasions that your attack can bail you out before you begin to suffer the effects and subsequently cause your forwards to be disillusioned.

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

Nobody has stated our attack is perfect, but it is utter foolishness to blame our attack under the circumstances. It's akin to blaming the man with bucket for the sinking ship.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

There are still many people so used to winning one-nil that they cannot accept the idea of winning 2-1 or 3-2 being every bit as valuable or worthy. What IS rubbish is this belief that because we have the best attacking record overall there is no problems or flaws to our attack. Clearly Boro and God help me s***s are superior teams to West Brom and Southampton. How did we score five goals against each of the first two sides but get held at home to one by West Brom and needed an extra-time equaliser for our second against Southampton? Form? Luck? Blinders? Injuries? Want-aways? Bad refs? Why? The thing is well, as some here have come round to acknowledge, we have been found out and the one-dimensional nature of our attack exposed and countered with tactics first used by Sam Allardyce and Bolton with Regularity and effectiveness that more and more teams especially the poorer teams have turned to as their only chance to get anything against Arsenal. That is the one common factor in all these matches - the tactics used against us and our inability to produce the two-goal lead, which again has not been pegged back once this year In all of the matches I referred to we were held to single goals or single-goal leads. This team is NOT a defensive football team and has not been for the last five years. Of course we have won more often than not with the one-goal lead or even the one-nil lead(The only scoreline we have lost more often than won is the 4-2 scoreline, which we have won none and lost two). The thing about the one-nil scoreline is that well we have won fewer and fewer one-nil results for years, and conceded the equaliser more regularly each season, including last year. It is not an accident. It is not simply declining defense but the evolution of Arsenal from purely defensive to eventually purely attacking. We are far closer to the latter now. They are willing to give it their all but just different defending - less confident, less assured of themselves front-to-back and vice-versa. And the lack of converting from set-pieces and the unwillingness to meet the good crosses we already play denies the extra goal that can gives us the comfort zone we simply thrive in. Where in 1998 one-nil was the most common clean sheet by far by 2002 it was two-nil and this year its three-nil. By the same token we also held more one-goal leads late in 1998 than in 2002 and did so then than this year, irregardless of how many we goals we scored or conceded all year each season.This is proof we are now almost purely an attacking side and not as competent defending and more importantly not as comfortable. If we would look at the problems up front that could easily be fixed without buying big or altering formation or tactics it could take a huge amount of pressure off us, but we have ignored them and it has hampered us. The fact is we have ignored set-pieces and not attacked crosses and the small(or not-so-small) number of extra goals we have thus spurned have damaged every bit as much as those late equalisers. Anyone who can't acknowledge THAT is talking serious rubbish...

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

USMartian: "in the Premiership even with the days where the defence was fully at fault we would still be far better off with the odd extra goal against the sides in the lower half of the table", that is some revolutionary thinking i must say. Now please answer me this, how in all that is goods name can you blame forwards, who are clearly doing their job for those results. It's mind boggling. In every instance you can dream-up, a "few extra goals" would ease any difficulty we face, but that is not the point and that is not a reasoned or even rational analysis. Answer me this, why on earth should are forwards be required to score 3 goals to beat Southampton when Chelsea and United only need 1. Thats a ridiculous amount of pressure to put on our forwards consistently. That kind of mentality wins you nothing but heartache and disgruntled squad.

Next James Bond?
March 11, 2005

Paul Bettany, Clive Owen, James Purefoy or Daniel Craig??

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

US Martin, you are talking a fiercesome amount of rubbish in laying the blame at our attack for most of our problems this season. Tell me again, who are the leading scorers in the league? Yes yours truely. Also theoretically, you should only need to score ONE goal to win a game if your defence is of a decent standard (as Chelsea have proven on numerous occasions this season), you shouldn't be required to have a 2 goal minimum to win matches because that in itself indicates a problem with the defense. Conversely in one of your earlier points regarding the ''lesser'' teams we have failed to beat, you could convincingly argue that a number of the goals we conceded should never have been allowed considering the modest firepower we were up against. To put your point about our attack under further scrutiny, i'd like to know how many 0-0 draws we've had in comparison to 1-0 wins, in say our last 100 games. I think you'll find we're alot less trouble in the attacking department, as others are at pains to tell you.

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

Parkerknoll Gooner, I'd rather us match their attitude than results. :) **** Bolton worries me. They can smell blood, at least fat Sam can. Will we have post CL blues? I have a strange feeling we'll do okay. No way we'll lose 2 out of 3 times to a Bolton in the same season. We're due. Lord, how I'd love a good old fashion 3-0 thrashing!

its only ray parlour
March 11, 2005

Thanks Pat Rice, was that article really written by James Lawton? Unbelievably even-handed in light of his previous works especially when comparing Ferguson and Wenger.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 11, 2005

American - careful what you wish for, our friends the european giants that are the mancs have won 6 knockout ties in 12 years, chelsea will equal that in 2 seasons should they win it this year. On your transfer targets I would set your sites higher, I wonder if AW will renew his interest in Kalou and possibly his teamate Castelen. Pass choccie the strepsils, the poor guys throat must be roar.

Fred
March 11, 2005

If only it was that simple! American.

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

What we need is for XI players with talent close to the likes we've come to enjoy the past few years at Arsenal who go into CL games with the same attitude they go into league games where they win 4-1. I don't see that 'air of invincibility' from Arsenal on Euro nights. I'll settle for the 'steely, we won't be denied' attitude we had at Inter. If we had played like that night and lost and I would not have complained. Man Yoo to their credit, and I said this before, seemed to play with more bottle without scoring a goal and than we did scoring two goals. I hate having to say that. I've only seen them awed once and that was the 3-1 loss at Real Madrid a couple years ago. I've seen them have bad games, but not out of fear or bottle, just good old crappy playing which can affect any team. We give more respect and play with more fear against a Steau Bucharest or Shakhtar Donetsk than we do to Chelsea or Liverpool. **** As for strikers to come in, I like Yakubu. He can score with both feet, can head, can play with his back to the goal and chest down volleys into the box, can't be easily pushed off the ball, he can get at the end of crosses both on the ground and in the air, has power, can play centrally, score from distance, we already know he can play in England without having to worry if a foreigner will settle and only in his mid-20s. **** We need a CB. Someone who can come in and play a role till Senderos is ready and make Toure` compete a little each week for Campbell's partner but at the same time okay with the current situation and is decent at a good price. Yobo. I know I'll get an earful for suggesting him.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

The pod people are here and the first one found was a writer at the Independent...

old man of hoy
March 11, 2005

Here's a thought for the future. Dennis retires and Jose is given the hole spot for a year - if he doesn't do it lose him. Cesc is promoted to first central midfielder with Gilberto - Paddy moved on. Henry takes captain's armband. Bob goes on left for one more year before moving on with Clichy behind. Cole goes to Chelsea and we use funds to buy a great centre back and good goalie. Buty Belleti as right back with Eboue as number 2. Ralph and Flamini rotating squad men.

Alex
March 11, 2005

Anybody would be good to help Henry upfront. But nobody would want Freddie and Reyes now.

*News Flash*
March 11, 2005

How about Ljungberg & Reyes in exchange for the Real Ronaldo! What do you Think?

Alex
March 11, 2005

ok, it is late and there is nobody much around on the forum. But it has just dawned on me...no matter how many new players we get, it will not improve our chances in Europe as long as we do not learn new tactical behaviour and patterns. If we could not win the CL with the bunch of players we have enjoyed in the past years, why should we win it with others. The team has to be coached differently.It is not the players but the tactics that count. And that is something that Rice/Wenger have not taught the squad.Why? Because they do not excell in that department. I wonder how Capello or Rijkard would coach the team to play

US Martin
March 11, 2005

I did mis-speak perhaps referring to PR consultants as I do not work at arsenal , but not neccessarily wrong, Nico. How do you know he does not? But it is safe to say that as a businessman Edelman has consulted those professionals and as a businessman attended PR seminars or taken such courses at university level. As for whether Edelman should have said what he did Thierry Henry's statements answer that definitively, not your opinion or mine. As for the whole profit issue -the Board as a group are independently wealthy beyond the club. As the club is for some if not all a labor of love as I DO believe why not simply inject more personal income as a loan to the club. Also the club has a a stake in the non-footballing estate property this project has created, so no matter how the team performs the Board members will make a LOT of money. I do not mean that as an indictment of all on the Board although I think for some that is priority number one, and those who are more concerned about ouer success on the field are losing the battle in the Boardroom. Given that ultimately this project will be a financial winner for the Board no matter the results on the pitch I can't help but wonder if they have the same priorities about the team as non-investing supporters do. I want to believe in the Board but their lack of backing of Mr. Wenger which is evinced in the silence from others on the Board raises serious questions. And Thierry Henry is now asking them. That sums this argument up as I see it and most unhappily I fear...

Alex
March 11, 2005

In other words GunGun, going 49 games unbeatern in the Premiere League does not mean that you are anywhere near being mature Champions League material. I am afraid you are right. Bayern are deliriouis after their victory and think there is no stopping them now. But maybe they are not aware that Arsenal were not first class European opposition. I think football-wise the Italians and French are far superior compared to Bayern.Arsenal must improve their tactical awareness. I wonder if Arsene can do this or not.

Nico
March 11, 2005

Sorry, folks, but you can have a lot of faith in your club and still feel free to criticise, that's what this place is all about, so let's stop slamming people for simply expressing their natural feelings of frustration. All of it is useless as nobody influential bothers to read all this crap anyway. Even chocco, the most faithful gooner on the forum and the one who screams loudest from the stands if all your accolades and his own critique of the poor misguided average mollusc of a fan are to be believed, nods in agreement with the boss in saying that we are not good enough to beat the likes of Bayern. And presumably we never have been, if the last seven years of cl flippety floppety are anything to go by. So what's your solution, matey? The return of Gilberto (and perhaps Campbell) from injury? Do me a favour, please. We need new blood for key positions, a new skipper (I don't mind if he works with Paddy if that's possible without Paddy going, which if he does, c'est la vie), and no more passengers, and that's just for starters. USMartin, Edelman is Edelman - he does not use PR consultants to say or write what he does. He does not need to consult the board either. He tends to shoot from the hip. You can think what you like of him, but how do you know what he says can be controlled by the rest of the board at any given time, or is fed to him by the board? He's the md ffs, plus they have other fish to fry and not enough time to monitor his movements. Nor are some of them friendly enough with him to influence him either way, he's his own man and fair weather to him. Last summer we had no money cos Wenger spent it all on Reyes in January. He said so himself. Maybe another reason for Henry to resent Hose A, by the way - a waste of money as far as Titi is concerned, and maybe he's right in the context of his recentest remarks. In January 05, however, there WAS (more) money and the board were rightly proud of the fact and boasted of it, perhaps rather tactlessly, saying that Wenger (for his own arguably excellent reasons) chose not to spend it. Does that all make Edelman an e*g? Maybe for you, but not for me, though I take absolutely no offence if you think so, he doesn't need anyone's protection. He's brash, but that's him, and he's got a fair level of guts. If Fiszman doesn't want him there, he'll fire him. On to the profit motive; now please tell me, USM, how exactly can you wish willingly to sacrifice your team's success to a profit motive when you have a choice as to whether to buy specific players to guarantee more success or not to. Aren't they bound up together, these two motives, for football clubs? Putting it in plainspeak, the more successful you are, the more money you tend to make. Come to think of it, that sort of thing applies to most walks of life. Those chaps didn't get rich by deliberately foregoing success. You'd be nuts to think so.

Thanks Pat Rice
March 11, 2005

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/arsenal/story.jsp?story=618814

Richie
March 11, 2005

Henry's injury may prove to be a blessing in disguise for Reyes. I would like to see him start against Bolton as the main striker and to see how he gets on. He can play without having to worry about pissing TH off with a stray pass and play his own game. A chance to redeem himself. Be interesting who is in goal now we are out of the CL and effectively out of the Prem. Would be harsh on Almunia not to get the nod after his performance in the last round.

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

C.L. Scout, "But finally who will replace Bergkamp when he leaves? Flamini is not the answer." Different positions I'm afraid. Flamini is a center mid.**** Flamini is a better passer than some on here give him credit. He's not Cesc, Bobby or Titi in the quality of his passing but he doesn't need to be and frankly neither is Vieira. Paddy does give the great pass once in a while but he loses the ball and makes as much bad passes as anyone else. Even some real howlers ('99 semi final FA cup; 1 of the Chelsea games last year). The game escapes me but there was a flip on pass Flamini made with his back to the goal at the edge of the box a few months ago that led to a goal which ONLY Dennis, Henry or Cesc could have made. He has great promise. He just arrived. And he has the qualities that we seem to be missing a lot in games: courage, fearlessness, limitless energy...basically 'bottle' as you all say. And he's only 20. If he was English (not accusing anyone on here) everyone would be raving about him.

GunGun
March 11, 2005

The overall tactical and strategical standard of the Premiere League is not very high. This is why are top teams, who are accustomed to playing fightball against 90% of the English opponents, struggle in Europe.Look at Middlesbrough. They struggled against very mediocre Austrian oppostion in the last round and today lost at home to Sporting. The tactical awareness is what is lacking in our league, tactical maturity and this is what Mourinho has taught Chelsea. Wenger and Ferguson have adapted tactically to the fightball tactics of the teams beneath them

Alex
March 11, 2005

I just wonder what Mourinho would make out of the Arsenal squad. I am really impressed by Chelseas tactical maturity..something we have never shown in Europe under Arsene.But I still love Arsene and it pains me to see him suffering on the touchline. But would Mourinho teach us better strategics?

DHD
March 11, 2005

Dave M - I'd forgotten about that. Good call.

C.L. Scout
March 11, 2005

Flamimi is a good footballer, a tireless worker but not in the Bergkamp class for splitting defences wide open. Gilberto is the, most underrated player in the squad which boggles the mind. Van Persie is a time bomb about to explode any minute. It will be interesting to see how Wenger handles him. Despite the marked progress of Senderos a top rated centre back is badly needed. Toure needs to work at playing on the right as he's not a centre back at this level. It would be nice if Wenger could land Cudicini from the Bridge possibly in an exchange for Ashley. Clichy could fill the slot if Cole leaves. Vieira should not be parted with despite his drop in form which in my opinion is partly attributable to the absence of Gilberto. Reyes should be treated gently as he's behaving like a fish out of water. I believe he's got a future at Highbury. But finally who will replace Bergkamp when he leaves? Flamini is not the answer.

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

Must say I am happy for Liverpool. They are our rivals but I didn't mind them going through. Will a semi final or final be enough to keep Gerrard at Merseyside? If they get Lyon, PSV or the winner of the Inter/Porto game they could progress. **** I adopted Barnet as a club I follow based solely on the fact we play reserves game and I had the opportunity to visit their stadium on my visit to London (is it me or is the field slanted downhill?) and glad to see them top of their conference last time I checked (which was a couple weeks ago and too lazy to verify it). I think they have the conference leading goal scorer as well. **** I'm also wishing 'Boro well in the UEFA Cup and happy to see the Toon (sorry Bernard) win away in a very tough place to get a result. Nico, were you cheering for Olympiakakos or Newcastle or neither as you were like me, still smarting over our loss?

DaveM
March 11, 2005

DHD, we've already tried Cesc and Flamini, and it worked very well. Over 90 minutes they outplayed Chelsea's (5 man) midfield. They also did very well when playing as part of 10 men against SU at home. I'd play them until they fail, indeed I'd play them after that because all our big name players fail so why not let the youngsters? I agree that Vieira and Flamini isn't an ideal balance (same as Gilberto and Vieira), but if Cesc is nominally wide right and then drifts inside a bit it should be more than adequate against most sides. Anyway, I'm off.

Mee
March 11, 2005

Browsing the Bayern website it was interesting to see that Felix Magath and one or two players felt that after ‘defeating a team like Arsenal, the way is open to the final’. Their perception of our worth looks significantly higher than our own judgements. Also interesting to see that statistics have been produced which show that Bayern win more games when Ballack is absent from the team. If the Kaiser spots this we might be in with a chance . . .

Alex
March 11, 2005

How cab Edu have picked up a cartillage problem BEFORE the Bayern game. What kind of manner do they train? Train to kill each other in each session? So many injuries in English football, it just is not true.By the way...did you see how focussed Liverpool were in Germany compared to us in Munich?

DHD
March 11, 2005

Sincerest apologies for puss-poor spelling. Combination of surfeit of absinthe and distinct lack of smellcheque.

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

The time to blood the youngsters isn't when we have half the first time out and our backs against the wall. It should be when we're up 4-1 with 20 or 30 minutes left in the game. Quincy, Lupoli, Senderos and some of the others should be given a run out for 10-15 minutes in those types of games. Not all at the same time but one or two on the bench. Its one of the few things I don't like that Wenger doesn't do. He keeps Henry on the pitch 90 minutes the whole league season, even though the guy has played every summer since '98 and we wonder why he has foot problems. The real wonder is why he hasn't suffered a long term injury. Sub Henry at the earliest convenience in games to save him from tiredness and injury late in the season. Others as well. Vieira isn't and hasn't been a 38 league game player for a few years. He will never see 30 league games again due to injuries and suspensions. Same with Campbell. If there is a time to sub those players out when we're up comfortable it should be in games where we are up comfortably like 3-0 at half over Norwich where we don't do anything any way in the 2nd half than check the clock to see when we the coach will be leaving. Look how much the development of the youth players have progressed this year? But it was at a price. It was because there were injuries. Their transition would be much smoother and the injuries wouldn't have happened as much without a better substitution policy.

DHD
March 11, 2005

Dave M - I'd go with Cesc and Flamini; it's wortha try. I have plenty of respect for what Flamini does defensively and I've made my position clear on his limitations as a creative player. Paired with PV4, I believe there's just not enough craft or creativity between the two of them - Flamini contributes almost nothin innthat department. My only worry would be that paired with Cesc, there wouldn't be enough defensive capability. Flamini doesn't yet possess the defensive cpacity of even an off-form PV4. I guess I'm saying that despite his current poor form, PV4 still represents an impressive mix of defensive and attacking capabilities. Lest we forget, PV4 was quite recently the complete midfielder. Sad, isn't it?

Sean
March 11, 2005

shut up you gobshite

Graham
March 11, 2005

Good post Choc, after reading your post I didn't want to add anything. You pretty much summed it up.

DaveM
March 11, 2005

Why should Flamini have the craft and vision of Cesc? He has other strengths - he tackles and gives the ball to more gifted players, whilst getting up and down the pitch. He's a better player than Parlour was, and we all know there were certain games where you really wanted Ray on the field. A good central midfield partership should complement each other. Cesc and Flamini do this. If we could find a decent wide right player they'd be my first choice central midfield.

DaveM
March 11, 2005

The end of an era is a good thing. We have a lot of top class players (and Freddie) who've failed time and time again in the CL. We have an absolutely extraordinary group of young players whose attitude and consistency are much better than most of our big names. If Henry had got the big name players he wanted then the young players (who've played well) would have been stuck in the reserves whilst the usual suspects would have stayed in the team or on the bench. It wouldn't have helped. If we're going to bring big name players in then big names players need to be sold. Our squad is quite big. Wenger's first team would have been (and I hope we never see this side on the pitch again)Lehmann, Lauren, Toure, Campbell, Cole, Ljungberg, Vieira, Gilberto, Pires, Bergkamp, Henry. On the bench would have been Alumina, Clichy, Cygan, Edu, Reyes (pretty uninspiring bench, isn't it?). That means Hoyte, Eboue, Senderos, Cesc, Flamini, VP, Quincy, Aliadiere all disappear out of the squad. My point (other than we have a very strong reserve team) is that in about 3 weeks pretty much everyone will be fit. Assuming players like Senderos, Cesc, Flamini and Quincy have earnt their places in the first team squad, who's going to drop out? Whoever it is won't like it, and Wenger in the past has ducked difficult calls like this. Against Bolton I'd like to see Alumina, Eboue, Senderos, Toure, Clichy, Cesc, Flamini, Vieira, Quincy, VP, Aliadiere. I can't see this side quitting if things aren't going well. A more realistic side is Alumina, Lauren, Toure, Senderos, Clichy, Cesc, Flamini, Vieira, Cole, Bergkamp, VP/Quincy. The key point is that our young players have more fighting spirit, and are more consistent (which really shouldn't be the case) than our 'first' team, and the more young players we start with Saturday the more chance we have of winning.

DaveM
March 11, 2005

How many genuinely good performances have there been in the CL at Highbury?

DaveM
March 11, 2005

Niall, as far as I'm concerned Ljungberg has held us back for years. I can think of goals, but I can't think of good performances from him in Europe (and not that many elsewhere either). As a midfielder you need to get involved in the game. At least you could see Reyes was having a nightmare - Freddie may as well not have been on the pitch. I read that he made one tackle in 80 minutes. Is it any wonder the midfield struggles against decent sides when we effectively play with 10 men when Ljungberg starts wide right? Apart from the odd goal scoring burst there is nothing Ljungberg does particularly well. Yes he runs around, but there are dozens of League 2 players who'd work as hard as him and frankly have more impact. I mean, how many times in his last 3 starts has Ljungberg been easily brushed aside and gestured despairingly at the ref? Winning the CL with Ljungberg is impossible, and I'll only stop critising him when he's gone. The odd goal or two can't distract from the fact he does nothing else at-all.

Patrick
March 11, 2005

That last post of mine was for Florida.

Patrick
March 11, 2005

That might not be because it agrees with your view, surely not ????

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

We'll agree to disagree USMartin, which is how I think others should finish the argument with you. You have your opinion. You seem wedded to it and can't fault you for that as I have some strong opinions about Arsenal and other matters that I'm convinced about as well. **** On another note, while I have not given up hope of Reyes making it at Arsenal, I am less convinced he is Henry's ideal partner. Left wing is the position he seems more suited for with us and as striker if we're in a bind. That said, the search then continues for Henry's ideal partner. Bergkamp is not a long term solution and RvP, Lupoli and Quincy don't seem ready yet. I like Yakubu. He has qualities we currently lack and gives us a different look, which I think we need as a sort of plan B.

Florida Gooner
March 11, 2005

Spot on! Choccy. Yours is the only post that has made any sense so far today. I agree wholeheartedly with you especially about Gilberto. The idea that some people want to get rid of Vieira is also unbelievable. Keep the faith!

chocolate gooner
March 11, 2005

BTW… Wiltord the useless scored a hat trick for Lyon. What say you Niall?? Cheers.

Martin Jol
March 11, 2005

We have some great 15 minutes of football from our side. It's the other 75 ones that are the problem.

chocolate gooner
March 11, 2005

Fans … don’t you just love ‘em! There always has to be someone to blame and the blame has to be both irrational and over the top or else it’s not football… and since Vieira made eyes at Real Madrid it’s pay back time. Some facts; while Vieira hasn’t been at his best he has had to carry the midfield burden almost alone this season. Flamini has energy, ability and guts but he is still only 20. Fabregas will be a great player but defensively he is not good enough, so one of our best players has had to adapt his game while his form has been a bit dodgy… and some fans think we should have sold him to Real Madrid. Gilberto who has been an absolute lynch pin as far as our defensive solidity goes has been missing for most of the season, our next best midfielder, Edu has barely played a handful of games. But why let the facts get in the way, and let me say this, if a club like ours starts selling its prime playing talent every time the likes of real Madrid say boo we won’t have very many players left. If we’d sold Vieira, Cole would be a real goner by now, so think of that before spouting about selling Vieira . It’s funny because at the beginning of the season Bergkamp was the mutt’s nuts, then he became an old, over-the-hill has-been and then he became the fan’s darling once more…. And now? Reyes has been dubbed a flop. At the beginning of the season when he was on fire he was being praised to the high heavens on this forum and suddenly he is rubbish… so rubbish that some twits are willing to swap him for an injury prone, one-dimensional goal getter who WON’T SUIT OUR STYLE but hey! Whoever said that what is posted on this forum has to make sense. Senderos was slammed as not good enough by a lot of the same people who on this forum today are now ladling out some OTT praise. The guy has great potential but he is going to need time. Reyes is a country boy who has been pitched into a big club in a foreign land and he has family around him who are not exactly willing to adapt. Is it any wonder the guy’s form has gone belly up? But why would the fans cut him any slack? On last night’s game my opinion is that we weren’t good enough. For long stretches of that match we couldn’t match Bayern physically and that was a shock to me. The encouraging thing is that the guys withstood the pressure. Which is less than one can say for the fans, if so-called fans cannot be arsed to raise their voices in support of their own team at a match like last night’s then I don’t really see how any of us can complain about the commitment of the players and I’m glad that Leedsfan pointed out the lack of faith that was palpable amongst our fans. The guys worked their socks off… they just weren’t good enough - and for that the manager has to carry the can. Cheers all. Goodnight

US Martin
March 11, 2005

I think that applies better in American sports American, with playoffs and playoff series. In Football that applies in matches against the top sides. I don't argue our defense wasn't nearly good enough to win the European Cup as it was in terms of play and more importantly fitness. But in the Premiership even with the days where the defence was fully at fault we would still be far better off with the odd extra goal against the sides in the lower half of the table and the sides wedded to Bolton's tactics now against us. In fact really the only days where our defence alone or primarily cost us were home to ManUre and away to Liverpool. In a round-robin competition against teams of such varied quality, defence will matter against the top teams far more than against the mid-table teams let alone relegation fodder. That's how you win conceding three to Boro and four to s***s. You can't concede two and expect to win against the manc scum or Chelski. By the same token you should be able to conceded one late at home to West Brom and already have the points banked with a goal or two to spare, same of Southampton, Man City and Bolton, and even of Palace and Southanpton away, and a draw should have been the worst we got at the reebok. When you have two top teams then yes, defense decides it. Agree 1000% But otherwise, well 1-1 against West Brom at home has no sensible explanation whatsoever, not from up-front anyway...

Martin Jol
March 11, 2005

I can put up with hearing from our supporters about all the failures of the Arsenal - it's all their success that worries me!!. How are Tottenham ever going to emulate them ???.

Martin Jol
March 11, 2005

Hey!, what you all complaining about?. I have to deal with Frank and Dan,you think you have problems!. They expect me to win the FA Cup!!! - all i gotta do is beat Newcastle away and then there is still the Arsenal and Man U left, ahhh!!!!.

Myles Palmer
March 11, 2005

________________________________________ONE SMALL STEP for mankind.Arsenal beat Bayern Munich 1-0.It wasn't enough.They were one goal short, as they have been for seven years.But they beat Bayern. So it's a small step forward.On his Champions League debut, Senderos was superb, their best player. He should play from now till the end of the season.In fact, if Senderos can repeat that form in the FA Cup at Bolton on Saturday, they should give him the No 6 shirt next year.The Champions League is a competition for tacticians and Felix Magath got it right last night.Bayern pressed in the first half (playing at a high tempo like a Premiership side, or Sheffield United) and then defended the box in the second.Their pressing was ferocious. They got in amongst Arsenal and disrupted their passing at source, Magath having picked Guerrero with Pizarro, so he had two strikers..For 41 minutes it was purgatory for Gooners.Then Henry got in on the left at high speed but it was impossible to score from that angle against Kahn, unless you slip it low between his legs.Until Pires came on, it didn't look like Arsenal.No fluidity, no pattern, no partnerships. Every partnership that means anything had been disrupted by injury before it was disrupted by Bayern's pressing.Oldest cliche in football : you can only play as well as you are allowed to play. And since Arsenal only have one way of playing, and always pick the same players, you can plan against them.REYES was hopeless. He seemed to be wearing somebody else's boots.Overall, Reyes, Ljungberg and Bergkamp were poor.The other eight boys did well.The Italian referee was positionally poor and far too whistle-happy.Second half, Arsenal were better, as they had more room to play.On 54, Henry found Vieira with a great pass but his shot was wide of the far post.On 65, Ashley Cole hit a 40-yard lofted pass and Henry got away from Lucio and brought the ball down as only he can and hit it low into the far corner.25 minutes to go, one more goal needed.Pires came on for Reyes, Fabregas for Flamini, van Persie for Freddie, the game opened up, Lehmann made a sensational save from Ballack, tipping over, then raced out to the edge of the box to stop Guerrero.SO ARSENAL WON, but lost 3-2 on aggregate.Thought they would draw the game 1-1, so they had done better than I expected.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

Sorry to come on so strong Nico. But let me put is this way. Edelman could have achieved the goal you speak of by simply saying "We have assured Arsene Wenger he will extensive Transfer Funds available for Team-Building this summer to bring our team back to its best again immediately" and that would have re-assured everyone including season-ticket holders of our ambitions to improve the team as needed. Compare that to what was said which was the money was already available and Arsene Wenger CHOSE not to spend it to improve the team. Now given that clearly the quote I wrote above could have achieved the same goal as you and the Gooner refer to, how on earth did Edelman end up saying what he did? And why? And how could anyone not consider that an attempt to scapegoat or escape criticism for their own decisions then? If we lose Henry I hope Gooners here will demand an accounting of how and why all this happened and some sort of accountability such as there is - like maybe someone taking responsibility for their poor decisions publicly as no one will be fired or anything. Good God how could the Board (if they havet to be fair) screw this up so bad?

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

Regarding our attack. We'have had the best attack in the league for the last 3 years at least. Coincidentally, when we were 1st or 2nd in goals against we've won the title. Goals win games...defense wins titles. **** CB, agree with you about Chelsea, but they have also had the rub of the green this season and its that little bit of luck along with playing good footie that may get them over the top in the CL. **** Quincy would have been better as a last ditch alternative than RvP.

Fred
March 11, 2005

If we had signed Peter Cech if we had played Bayer Leverkusen if Roman Abrazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

Bored, we played youth this year because we had to. Not part of any grand rebuilding design. Had Silva and Edu been healthy we'd only have seen Fabregas and Flamini in the league cup and some of the FA cup games and only token appearances in the league. **** Singapore Gooner, maybe it could also be added incentive that he moves to north London when he leaves Barca. **** Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)that's why I want Man Yoo in the FA cup. We need to exorcize that demon. If we beat them, it gives us confidence, if we lose it forces us to take a hard look at ourselves and will prompt Wenger into making some big changes. **** Once again, agree with Steve Martin's 10 things about Arsenal post.

Mee
March 11, 2005

US Martin: What a wonderful world you inhabit. A childlike appraisal of a seasons disappointments overturned by the odd goal here and there. Just imagine if Palace or WBA applied the same criteria to their results, maybe a Champions League place would and should have been theirs. This world of ‘if only’s’ should be consigned to the pages of boys comics. Maybe the world is flat after all . . .

AmericanGooner
March 11, 2005

DHD, if everyone was healthy Flamini wouldn't we be playing a quarter as much as he has this season. He was not bought as the finished article. He was bought because he was young, showed promise and came at the right price. He only started for Marseille for a year as they made their UEFA cup run so he was still learning there as well. Lets give him some time. He trains with world class stars and is getting settled in a new club, new country and language. Its much, much too early to say definitely he's just a "meat and 2 veg" squaddie. His touch is also much better than Parlour on his best day. **** Darren, I've been saying the same thing for a while. I want this group to win it, but it will be our youth with a few new additions and a couple from this present group that will eventually win the CL. I don't think we'll win it with Vieira as captain. I don't think he has it in him to lead us through the whole CL competition. We'll win the vast majority of our games with him, win PL titles and FA cups but just miss out on the big prize. I hope to goodness its not so. I hope he can lift the CL trophy and prove to himself he was right for staying with us but I don't think so. Its just what I fear from what I see. ****Reyes should have started last night. Pires had a knock and had played over the weekend. Reyes was fresh from a 3 match ban. So, his starting was the right move. He should have been substituted earlier, perhaps half time or soon after. That is where AW went wrong.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

Nico come on - these are professional businessmen handled by pr agents and officers who would have known that would be how those comments would be perceived and warned Edelman of it. If not thatwas a spectaculrly sloppy and unprofessional way to get his message across. I will not debate this any further but I will ask - if our best player believes the Board held back money our manager requested and then tried to scapegoat him about it and left ultimately because of that could we then say it is possible that the Board did not put the team's success ahead of profits without getting personally offended by such a suggestion?

US Martin
March 11, 2005

He has - Kolo I mean - been our best aerial threat for sometime and looking the numbers produced again says it all. We have simply de-emphasized aerial football by and large. From open play, fine, but from corners? Why not take advantage of them, especially if things aren't flowing as expected in open play? No one can argue then that one more goal each against Southampton or Bolton or West Brom or City at home or Palace or Southampton or Bolton away and we would thirteen points better off and three ahead of Chelsea even with the three losses and the draw with Chelsea. Even with all that with the bad defending, the bad injuries, the bad breaks and bad reffing we'd be clear at the top. If we just scored one more every other match we'd be within three or four points now, and likely to overhaul them. One more goal against Bayern we'd be through even with those mistakes and injuries and the opposition. If we took our set-pieces seriously, especially the corners those goals would be certain to come, at least enough of them to overcome the negative tactics. The reason I refer to headed goals is well, what are better than 90% of goals directly from corners? Headed. And what are better than 90% of goals directly from his crosses? Headed. Every other team in England and most European Cup sides are better at converting corners and crosses in to goals and work actively more than we do to do so as you play as you train. We can argue forever is it the attack or the defence and some here will no doubt. The problem is those here who won't even say we have to address these things are ready between them to ship off the whole side and just start over, and by consensus alone half the team, including three of the best four players right now would be gone if these posters who still seemed wedded to the clean sheet as success have it their way, ready to savor lots of nil-nil draws and the clean sheets they bring with them. This team is not that bad. It's not bad at all and that word is inappropriate and derogatory to this team. We have had problems at the back this year and the problems everyone has ignored up-front have now been exposed as a result. Opponennts have seen the blood in the water and everyone comes to meet us with the same brief listing 4-5-1 and eight or nine behind the ball and in the box for all the first 80 minutes, and while we have been found outno one at Arsenal apparently has found out how to respond, and taking corner-taking seriously would be a HUGE step in the right direction more than anything else. And forcing defences to defend across as well as straight ahead would make doing both more difficult which is where meeting crosses comes in. We don't need to do that more - we just need to do it at all. If we were, we'd still be on course for the Treble now even with the defensive lapses, or at worst in great shape for another Double, and I'll say it - we could concede 50 next year but if play as we have from open play this year, plus get a set-piece aerial goal every third match or meet a cross in the air every sixth match we will still run away with League and win our first European Cup, because if we do that we will simply score too many goals to punish our mistakes. Now add in correcting the problems at the back(which could be as simple as steadier keeping with the same defence healthier, or bringing in one top central defender as cover for Sol)and you could have one of the great teams in the history of World Club Football. Speculation, yes, but more sensible really than gutting this team and starting over and hoping that three years from now we'll be abck at the top level, when we aren't as far off as it seems now. Henry will not be the player he is now in three years, and the player with the potential to be the next Henry Reyes everyone wants out or is resigned to the idea he is out. Pires, Freddie, are other leading scorers will be done past it or gone by then. The same is likely for Sol, and Patrick again may be gone this year and for some crazy reason that is a good thing here. Gilberto's future is uncertain, and Edu's uncertain at Arsenal, and the same for Lauren.And let's not even get started on Ashley. Denis could STILL be here in three years given how his now cameos of brilliance make us all wish he'd play forever though he clearly can't go another season if that. Among the promising youngsters, only Cesc is a sure bet now, although Senderos is closing in on that status and Clichy is close too. The others - VanPersie, Hoyte, Flamini, Quincy, and even Bentley are still anyone's guess now, and three or more years away at any rate from approaching the current team's quality. The point is that right now, we are maybe a player or two, or even just some extra time on the training ground from being as good or even better than last year with THIS team NOW. To break it up now would set us back again two to three years and the players who would be counted on then to lead that team as they do this may no longer be here or here at the level they are at now, and the promise of this group wasted entirely, when simply practicing corners or attacking a few crosses might have been all we needed to do this year or need to do next. Let's hope Wenger doesn't make the same mistake Graham did after Benfica in 92...

Nico
March 11, 2005

And no-one is more despondent about it all than Henry himself. I think we've been very lucky to hang on to him so far and we'll be even luckier to hang on to him over the summer. I believe we'll have to be very careful not to lose him. There's a report doing the rounds that he feels the board could have offered Wenger money to spend last summer but chose not to, which was only going to damage our prospects. The fact they offered him funds in January (which he chose not to spend this time) and made a point of saying so may reinforce this feeling. I don't think this was said by Edelman to scapegoat him, though; like this month's Gooner, I reckon the idea was to give the fans something to look forward to so that ticket sales for next season would not be jeopardised but more importantly to haul in as much of those unrefundable membership fees and deposits for AG's first season as possible. Unless some major moves are made this summer, whilst our best players are retained, fears of flagging sales for AG won't subside. I wonder how popular a potential sale of Vieira will be in that context both with the playing staff and amongst the Arsenal brotherhood at large. Because it's a possible scenario that he may not want to leave this time, and that others from inside may wish him to. Oh, the irony of it all!

Mee
March 11, 2005

‘The end of the Invincibles’ When posting articles like this one from Paul Hayward in the Telegraph, it would be good to name the source.

Steve Martin
March 11, 2005

Just about sums up the season, Henry out for four weeks, the faint hope that he might break IWWW's records this season goes up in smoke... This has been an all round poxy season...

Cannon Balls
March 11, 2005

Actually we did get one good header on target from a set piece which forced Kahn to tipover from over from Toure,he must have been practising the art since his nightmare in Germany. That opening ricket by him cost us any chance over there and in truth we did well to to only lose the tie 3-2. Bring on the 'Trotters'now and let's get into the next round of the FA Cup,Wenger says that it's not his job to finish a season with no trophy.

DHD
March 11, 2005

US Martin - breathe into a bag for a while.

Felix
March 11, 2005

Sol Campbell is our best player at heading a ball. Senderos also looks good in the air. But US Martin you spout a lot of shite about scoring from headers.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

It's those on here who believe we're all set going forward who should maybe give baseball a try because their total understanding of football could be questioned as much as mine if not more, Jimmy. DHD mis-read my point, which was that our two best STRIKERS in the air are so poor they are better at taking corners or used there. I don't understand since I listed out top aerial threats in order - all from the back save Vieira(I might also have noted Cygan but can hardly recall him getting a head on the ball other than once that was cleared off the line, while Gilberto is better defensively by far in the air - although that goal off his shoulder against Newcastle last year was the most impressively struck header I've seen from us recently except for Campbell's flying Kung-Fu job against Chelsea three years back.) Point is we don't have a genuine aerial threat on corners right now, and if we did we would still be in hot pursuit of no less than our first Treble, no matter if the defence let in three more goals than they have to date. To say that isn't so is to tempt mediocrity as the team will lose belief and be broken up and even the younger players then will wonder what ambition we have. It's so simple. Why not just do something about - at least at London Colney, if not on the transfer market...

DHD
March 11, 2005

Nope - sorry US Martin but your still in b*ll*cks mode.

Västerås Gooner
March 11, 2005

It really is strange that our best scorer takes the corners (only the ones from the left this season). Henry is poor at it to so I can´t really see the point in not having him as a threat in the box.

Brett
March 11, 2005

Bernard, you're correct in saying that Quincy was better on the night. Can't argue with that at all. What do you think Arsenal should do with Bergkamp?

US Martin
March 11, 2005

No, it isn't because that isn't what I said - I said they are the two best players UP-FRONT in the air at this point. I believe we need ONE player up-front who can be in the box on corners, for even the best defender in the air, like John Terry right now, is still a defender and not a goal-scorer. We need someone who CAN score goals period to believe they can from corners. Also that postion player CAN and will meet the crosses we do put in with some regularity and effectiveness. As to the whole post - even the Graham's legendary defnce conceded single goals, conceded some of them late, and some against opponents they had no business conceding them against. So no improvement at the back on its own guarantees all those draws becomes wins, any more than improvements up-front. The fact is our failures up-front cost us more points than those at the back, as we might have dropped several of those points in our losses even without conceding or just conceding once. A second goal, which statistically should be an automatic for this team, especially against the likes of West Brom, or Southampton away, or Bolton away, or City or Palace away would surely have netted us nine points. DHD I'm guessing you were satisfied we got the clean sheet last night. Well, do you think the players or Wenger are or should be? Come on. This team is too good to be also-rans, especially by their own undoing. And if we continue to buy into the one-nil to the Arsenal myth with THIS side, we'll regret for years to come...

The Adams Family
tony.daisley@tnt.co.uk
March 11, 2005

Watching the game last night I question whether our crowd at 'The Highbury Library' did enough to warrant us winning. There was no passion generated from the fans and if they can't be bothered to raise an intimidating atmosphere then they don't deserve it. Its easy to blame the players or manager but sometimes us fans have to look at ourselves.

Jimmy
March 11, 2005

U.S.Martin..Stick to baseball mate.

Romford Gooner
March 11, 2005

I can't quite get over all this nostalgic nonsense about Parlour!! I'm sure Flamini would be delighted at being compared to somebody of so limited technical ability. Next some of you will advocate re-signing him. Bristol-If Reyes did chase back to win a tackle as you say then I can safely say that it's the only thing he's done for months. Homesick/unsettled players are no use to us and I think Wenger will have to think very hard about keeping him on especially if a certain Michael Owen continues to be benched at Real. Agree pretty much with Leedsfan about the crowd, it was very flat in the ground despite some of us trying desperatly to get it going.

Bristol Gooner
March 11, 2005

That may be true DHD but he probably does it less than most of the team! All I'm saying is we need to bring in more skill on that side but also one that will sweat blood for the team.

C.L.Scout
March 11, 2005

Arsenal's best midfield partnership is Vieira/Gilberto. It allows Vieira more freedom to go forward. Vieira has admitted that himself. Just check the record. Very few games have been lost with this combination.

Bernard
March 11, 2005

Brett, I think it's a bit much to dismiss Ballack's performance as saying "he was certainly better than Bergkamp on the night". You could argue that Quincy was better than Bergkamp last night, and he didn't even get on the pitch.

DHD
March 11, 2005

Not sure how FL8 came to be perceived as the purveyor of grit and determination in the team. All he’s done recently is moan. And dive. And appeal to the Ref. And trip over discarded sweetie wrappers. And jump out of tackles like there’s a poll up his *rse (as TA6 might have observed).

DHD
March 11, 2005

US Martin – It’s a bit of a leap to describe TH14 and RvP as our two best aerial attackers. Actually, that’s too kind; it's b*ll*cks. In fact that whole post is nonsense. Sorry.

Xav T
March 11, 2005

Andy in Singapore, regarding your comment that we should not sacrifice our natural game. Isnt’that precisely what we did last night? All these long balls from defense and keeper over the overcrowded midfield? Henry and Bergkamp had to rely on the scraps when they managed to get their heads on the ball between two hard working defenders. Even the goal was scored this way (a 60m ball from Ashley). We could not play our natural game. Our midfielders did not have any time on the ball. When they tried they had a German nicking the ball away, and even when they were able to do something with it they invariably gave it away. Our only option was the aerial pass, but unfortunately neither Thierry nor Dennis are any good at controlling the ball in these conditions (especially with 4 defenders and 4 midfielders to contend with). It’s in these tight packed games (and we get a lot of them in the EPL, but even more so in the CL) that we need someone able to get the ball down and pass it properly to Henry so that he can apply his magic.

Bernard
March 11, 2005

Bristol, wherever you got that from, I think it's an interesting observation on things. To be honest, the grit and determination point is a reason I've come to support the idea of getting Wright-Phillips - and don't forget, I was never really in favour until his rather dramatic improvement over the last year and a half or so, so I'm honestly not in the slightest bit moved by this 'we must have Wrighty's son (albeit step-) in the team' romantic view I've heard in the past. If you see Man City, he's got plenty of grit and determination, despite being small, and wins loads of balls as well as having a great work rate and using the ball to terrific effect once he has it. I don't think the lad at Real Betis would bring that competitive instinct, and to be frank I doubt Bentley would either. What I am worried about is City's valuation of him, which currently seems a little over the top. I can understand them wanting a good price, but some of the figures being quoted are in Abramovich type territory.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

I am not sure what the problem is on corners other than we don't have a genuine threat to meet our corners and get them on target. Campbell has the best record but don't think he's scored off more than three(better at meeting Denis' free-kicks really)and none in over a year(full credit for the goal at Pompey though - almost a classic strike). Vieira has history in his side but not of late - save against the mancs. Kolo might be the best from the back, but he is held back too often if not always on corners, or at least positioned outside the box to cut out the counter. The real problem is our two best aerial attackers - Henry and VanPersie are corner-TAKERS. And when you have such little real threat in the area, there's little point in getting your corners bang-on, as 99% of our BEST just get caught, punched or headed out anyway. I think the team has given up on corners or their ability to convert them to anything by and large. I can almost see us ahead of the replay spending more time practicing taking penalties than corners. Does that ever make sense? I'm not saying that happened but you never know. We just don't have any quality on our corners as a whole because we don't have any quality efforts to meet them and direct them home. Corners are to football what foul shots are to basketball almost - easy scoring chances you won't get from open play. Our failure to take advantage of them has cost us too many points, too much silverware, and too much glory. And to fix this we wouldn't have to change the way we play going forward one bit. We would just have to work at being better in the air on corners. This might be the single reason to by a more astute aerial player to put in up front with Henry. I really think if fit, Trezeguet is more than up to filling that role from set-pieces and doing so without disrupting our overall style of play moreso than anyone else out there, although shouts could be put in for Cisse if fit or Morientes, either of whom could just be available this summer. Our problem whether you choose to look at it from the back or up-front is too many dropped points against inferior opposition, and if you look at the numbers, the arguments cut both ways...

Brett
March 11, 2005

Leedsfan, one other thing, where would Ballack play for Arsenal? Behind Henry replacing Bergkamp or behind the front two, whoever Henry's partner might be?

Brett
March 11, 2005

Leedsfan, I suppose you are correct in that aspect, he was certainly better than Bergkamp on the night. As for him playing for us, we'll never know what would've happened, but I can see where you're coming from. The other point is that Senderos killed most of Ballack's adventurism, which is why I say Senderos is the MOM. Flamini did well as well, but acting almost as a fifth defender. That's subjective of course. Bayern's strength was organisation, rather than individual brilliance.

Cannon Balls
March 11, 2005

Too right, Mee, then again if we had a player holding the GK back so he couldn't save it the goal wuld have been disallowed anyway.

Brett
March 11, 2005

My order of choice of central midfielders: 1-Edu, 2-Flamini, 3-Gilberto, 4-Fabregas, 5-Vieira. Order of choice for central midfield partnerships: 1-Gilberto & Fabregas, 2-Flamini & Edu, 3-Flamini & Fabregas, 4-Vieira & Edu. **** Not keen on: Gilberto & Flamini, Fabregas & Edu, and Vieira with anyone apart from Edu. Should've sold Vieiria in the summer. Only half (if that) the player he once was. Didn't Wenger say that Vieira would be the best player in the second half of the season? A big raspberry blow!

Leedsfan
March 11, 2005

Brett, the main reason why you didn't get the two goals was that Munich were able to own the ball in your half for long periods. Ballack was orchestrating that. He never passed to an Arsenal player [ a bit like Reyes:-)] and was very dangerous in attack like the time that he brought an excellent save out of Lehmann. Put it this way, if he had have been on the Arsenal team I believe that you would all be looking forward to the quarter-final draw. He is a cynical so-and-so with his niggly little fouls but I suppose that shows his will to win.

Bristol Gooner
March 11, 2005

I remember struggling to reach the area when putting in corners as a kid, perhaps that's the one disadvantage of such a young squad! Now I know I've been an ardent defender of Ljungberg and I still don't believe he's as bad as some try and make out but I just read something on another site that seemed to sum him up rather well and that was "Ljungberg does not improve the team, the team improves him". With Bergkamp in his twilight years I think now's the time to cash in on Ljungbergs still good reputation and bring someone in who can offer us more on the right. Whether that player is SWP I'm not sure but whoever it is I do hope he shows the same grit and determination as Ljungberg as we can't afford to lose any more spirit from the side.

Mee
March 11, 2005

Sebastian Deisler took at least three perfect corners for BM which we did exceptionally well to repel, we couldn’t get past the first man and left ourselves open for a break. I wonder how effective John Terry would be if he played for Arsenal. He certainly wouldn’t have scored the winner on tuesday.

Bernard
March 11, 2005

With this corner taking stuff, has anyone noticed that when van Persie played his first few games for us he was actually capable of putting a pretty decent corner in. I can only assume we train that characteristic out of all our players as he's now as incapable of clearing the first defender as any of the other players who take corners. Perhaps we use a cunning vitamin supplement than drains the strength out of all the corner takers so none of them can reach the middle or back of the goal area when kicking the ball from the corner flag?

Brett
March 11, 2005

Ballack MOM?!?! Were you watching the same match as I? The only thing Ballack did was make fouls to disrupt our movement.

DHD
March 11, 2005

Leedsfan – interesting take on things. I think you’re right that the crowd didn’t believe we could do it, certainly not on the basis of the first half display. You can fool some of them… etc. On the corner issue, I and most others here have given up moaning about our ineptitude and in particular, our inability to clear the first man. Time after time last night we couldn’t even get the ball into the six-yard area. I wouldn’t mind if we actually had someone on the near post but more often than not, we didn’t. It’s the same week in, week out. It ain’t rocket science – near post, pen spot or far post - small medium or large. Easy, or so you’d think. The big difference in the Chavs corners (from which they are always dangerous) and ours (which wouldn’t worry the Doncaster Belles) is delivery, not execution. And practice. You wouldn’t know if we were any good at heading because the ball so rarely gets to an Arsenal head.

Leedsfan
March 11, 2005

I was at last night's match and I hope that you won't mind if I make a few remarks as a semi-detached observer. Firstly I was amazed to see how often Arsenal used the "get the keeper to hoof it up the pitch" tactic so beloved of all of the teams in the Coca Cola Championship, especially when all that this device did was to give the ball back to the Germans in the absence of an out-and-out target man. Secondly the Arsenal corners were very poor on two counts: 1. they never got past the first defender; 2. Arsenal committed too many people into the box thus allowing Munich to break out with ease. In fairness Bayern were exceptionally good at pressing the play and closing down the man in possession. Wonderful goal by Henry who I thought played very well. Ref was an absolute disaster as was the linesman on the West Side. Ballack was MOM while Sanderos was impressive for Arsenal as were Fabregas & Pires. I thought that the atmosphere started well but I suppose I was a little disappointed by it especially as the stakes were so high. Correct me if I'm wrong but I couldn't help but get the feeling that both the crowd and the team never really believed that the tie could be won. Anyway it was nice to see some top class football again and I'm sorry you didn't pull off the 2-0.

Cannon Balls
March 11, 2005

US,i agree a change of tactics is needed we are too predictable now and teams have longg ago sussed us out in Europe. Of course the same applies to Manure and the fact that despite us playing well below our best that they are having beaten us twice just two points ahead speaks volumes!. Henry after last nights game said that we spent less money on players than; "the likes of Tottenham, and Birmingham", he blames the board for not giving Wenger the money to buy, and that they prefered to rest on the laurels of last season. Had we managed to keep our small squad fit i still believe that we would have retained the title , but it was a big ask. So a win on Saturday to keep the present good run going three clean sheets also now and with players coming back like Sol and Gilberto, we should be in goodshape when we play the Chav's at their stadium built from Leggo blocks, a win there would be very satisfying. I dont want to see Wenger though running dementedly on to the pitch kissing and hugging everyone!. After all when was the last time Chelsea won a league game against us?.

US Martin
March 11, 2005

Full disclosure, Andy. The reason I stopped at that point is because we broke up a couple of weeks back. I began writing "that ain't gonna happen..." and felt as depressed as you in your post and had to stop. Thank you for the courtesy though. The long post was in response to that article(that wasn't just a poster I don't think), point being that in truth we are NOT all that far from where we were last year or from going on even further than a year ago. Whether we do is down to the decisions made this summer. I have never subscribed to the view that we only need to fix any one thing so much as our deficiency in the air has been a constant and consistent problem the last six years that has hurt us at times against all opposition, irregardless of how well we have played at the back or the front(save for across the box). It has hurt us more and more often than anything else save for bans and injuries during this period. There is no doubt the defence has underperformed, but it is the same defence thatwas so excellent a year ago, and given the injuries to key players in it as well as to players who protected it throughout the year, I am not so certain we need to buy buy buy as some suggest to fix things. Whereas the argument that our OVERALL goal-scoring record eliminates the idea of any tweaking up-front is dangerous. If we can score five against s***s away how can that kind of attack muster only one goal at home against West Brom (who subsequently gave up four at home to Chelsea then five at home to Liverpool shortly after?)? Or all of three goals(one in stoppage time) in two matches against Southampton? Or two in two with ManCity -one away is fine, but really. We have been found out up-front and European Cup sides have stopped us cold, while mediocre to poor League sides who commit to sitting at the block and venturing forward only enough to clog mid-field the first 80 minutes have done as well. They have adapted tactics to effectively frustrate us using extra men at the back(as opposed to European Cup sides having enough quality at the back to stop us straight up)that our lack of play across the box allows them to get away with, along with our woeful effectiveness from corners. See you agree on the corners, but don't understand this fear we will radically alter our attack for the worse, as we won't. Surely you've heard the radio or TV comms bemoan yet another good but wasted cross by Freddie or Ashley or Ralph or Bobby the past few years. We do put in maybe four good crosses a match that if we simply had someone capable of meeting them and getting them on target we'd get at least two good chances and maybe a critical goal each time out. I don't think we have to put more crosses in if we have that player, especially if he can also produce similarly on our corners. But we need that player, either we need to develop him within the team now, or to bring him in immediately. I believe that with all the extra goals we have conceded this year that save for eleven in three matches we have still been solid overall at the back with only 20 in the remainng 25 matches allowed - not a far cry from last year's defence. But with the extra goals scored all season - 67 in 28 matches, in seven draws or losses against these poorer teams and negative tactics, we have scored eight goals. I hate going on and on with numbers - the point is the offence has been frustrated more than the defence has failed this year (we actually won conceding three and four goals). The way the defnce has performed it is no surprise to give up a goal to West Brom even at home, but the way our attack and West Brom's defence has performed to score one should set off alarm bells immediately that something is not right up front. Just because we can still win 18 of 29 does not paper that over. If we win four of those matches and draw at Bolton we're nine points closer to the top, even with the losses to the mancs and at Anfield. So how can anyone say that this has not been a problem and not hurt us every bit as much as some of our mistakes at the back? Right now, Chelsea are moving on in Europe and we're not because they scored from a corner and we didn't. They are ten points clear because they scored from a corner at Highbury and we didn't, and a LOT more of that lead comes down to converting corners and meeting crosses which they do both far more regularly. That does not mean work is not needed at the back or even possibly new blood, although that to me is down to whether Sol will be back regularly at 100%, but that if we don't address the deficiencies that do exist up-front we will still be fighting for second-place and continental-also-ran status. Those who don't see that will see more failed promise and frustration, including the players and manager themseleves and we all deserve better for the wonderful way we already do most things now on the pitch...

Niall
March 11, 2005

I don't think anyone is trying to offer anything other than the opinion that Flamini is not the type of player who looks like you could depend upon to be consistently opening up tight defences with slick vision etc. Generally, his work rate is fantastic and he also gets forward well and every team needs his type in the squad, that is the main point that is being made.

Mee
March 11, 2005

To add something to the Flamini debate. Players of his type usually offer a more consistent level of performance because it is simply easier to replicate a performance based largely on physical endeavour as against an intuitive, highly technical game such as Bergkamps. The current infatuation by the media with John Terry’s level of consistency is an example of this physical based game. It is a no frills, higher, further and cetainly not faster sort of game which finds its perfect expression at set pieces. Ray Parlour was similar to Flamini in this respect, although I hasten to add that both Flamini and Parlour were by no means lacking in basic technique.

Bristol Gooner
March 11, 2005

Good point Eskimo, I'd like to know the differences between Mourhino's use of the word cheat and Wenger's because while they might be subtle the £10k difference in the fines is anything but.

Eskimo
March 11, 2005

Obviously it's not possible any more, but if we had won the Champions League, does anyone know approximately how much extra money would we have made (through TV and Prize money) and how much more money would we have had to give Sevilla as part of the Reyes deal? *** Moaninho fined £5,000 bu FA for calling Alex Ferguson and ManU cheats, the Spanish FA's £2,000 fine for Aragones is looking stupider by the minute. *** And for the record, I am definately in the camp that admires Flamini. PTBAG!

Cannon Balls
March 11, 2005

Oh dear, Mee, your rewriting history again old chap something that like in the old USSR is not unknown down at 'the lane that time forgot' either. You will find that the drunken jocks selling of players was more to do with his personality clashes with them when they fell foul of his control freak regime that he runs at OTthan any astute judgements on his part; Stamm, Beckham, etc, spring readily to mind, and that the old stalwarts who toe the party-line were or are kept on, despite turning in average performances week after week. Old Brian 'Chockie' McClair, the drunken jocks fellow countryman is still at OT now, masquarading as a youth team coach, but failing to find any decent youth players for which he gets paid. Ferguson's got no plans and never has had any, he reacts to events by throwing money around and had a lot of luck back in the 90's with young players coming through that were nothing to do with him , he had even posted Beckham off to 3rd division Preston until someone pointed out to the oaf that Beckham should be in the Manure first team,it was not as if Beckham was unknown being an England under 21 player at the time and having played well in the Manure youth side with Scholes and co. The player who Ferguson says is the best ever Manure one Roy Keane was in fact discovered by Brian Clough and Ferguson bought him from Forest. Ferguson's been picking other peoples brains and pinching their players for years but now is just treading water, hanging on to his old guard and making panic buys like Saha, what a bad one he is, Forlan,no comment!, Howard,oh dear it gets worse!, and now £30m on Rooney which is not looking that great either. Newcastle 2, Spuds 0.

Bernard
March 11, 2005

I've noted some people have been a bit critical of Flamini's tactical ability, others are more ready to appreciate his grit and ball winning. I have to say that I can't remember a game when he played where I've not been very impressed. And he was certainly one of our better performers yesterday. But I think Steve Martin summed him up perfectly when he said he's like Parlour at his very best. I think he's great myself, and think he's a great addition to the squad. However, whether or not he'll ever be an automatic choice for central midfield in the first team, I'm still not totally sure about yet, unless he can add a little technique to his game. I'm not saying he won't, in fact I hope he does, but I'm not wholly convinced he ever will be if we are able to get players as competitive as him but with a little more ability of the ball; maybe like Mascherano or Essien?

steve martin
March 11, 2005

Goonerguru... Other Teams (inc United) saw Arsenals style of play and spent a while thinking up ways to counter it... Kicking us up in the air was the first tactic, then the 4-5-1 tactic, stopping the other team from playing... This led to a lot of teams playing this way, making games more sterile... Porto and Greece did not help, winning the Champs League and European Cup and a lot of managers taking this style of play into the domestic leagues... The Prem is the most exciting, but it's also the most tactically naive... How can Bolton be only just behind, the team that has just reached the Champs League Q'f's

Decaf
March 11, 2005

Don't write any obituaries for the beautiful game, goonerguru. Milan play it, but have the sense to mingle it with stout defending. A lesson?

steve martin
March 11, 2005

One other thing on the Champions League, sorry CUP... I cannot believe that a team that won only one match in their group stage, scored a last minute goal to get through, play crap most weeks in the Prem are through to the Q'f's of the Champs league and Arsenal and United are out... Like last seaosn semi finals, it shows that this competition is far, far, overrated and winning it has a lot to do with the draw, the times you get the teams your drawn against, Injuries and suspensions, it's is not and never will the same as the consistency needed to win a domestic league title... The only tiem the Champs League will be the same, is wehn it is what it name suggests (A LEAGUE) where the best of the best in Europe all play each other twice (H&A) throughout the season...

goonerguru
March 11, 2005

Times are a changing,I love our free flowing football but I fear it is coming to an end,what happened to all the so called flair teams in Europe this year,us RM and Barca are all out and the 5 man midfield and strength at the back being the main reason,Porto started it off,closely followed by Greece(sorry Nico)and most managers have seen that it can reap rewards.Wenger dosen't need a plan B,he needs a new plan A,he has to somehow modify his thinking to cope with that type of team and that I would have thought would include new players and new tactics,only time will tell if he is capable of delivering either.

Bored
March 11, 2005

Mee: Are you implying that Wenger is not very good at getting a return on players just because Vieira turned down a move to Real?

steve martin
March 11, 2005

My take on Arsenal for 2005… 1. We started the season unbeaten from last year and had to play 5 matches to beat Forests record and 10 to reach 50 unbeaten… 2. Like most teams we started the season injury and suspension free… 3. We beat Forests record and the plaudits came thick and fast… 4, still unbeaten after 49 matches, fate deemed that the team in our way would to reach the landmark 50, would be Man Utd at Old Trafford, Not Southampton, Portsmouth, WBA, Norwich, but Man Utd… Still going 49 matches unbeaten, confidence must have been high to get at least a draw… 5. We played the game and lost the chance to reach the magic 50, however, the manner in which we lost the 50, was a bitter pill to swallow for most of the team, the whole club, supporters, Etc! 6. It seemed (to me anyway) that the media got more mileage out of us losing the magic 50 than they would have done of we had reached it, trust this Country to think that way.. 7. Arsene with injuries and suspensions piling up, brought in the youngsters, no way were we going to play to our usual high standards… 8. Chelsea and Roman the came of age with a couple of billion quid into the bargain and set about overtaking Arsenal and Man Utd and how can a club like Arsenal, one of the biggest compete with that, at a time when they are building a £250m stadium… 9. More positive, we are out of Europe, but then so are United and Real Madrid, the so called TWO BIGGEST clubs in the world, so we are in good company… 10. Looking at the youngsters, we have a very good future at this club, last night none of them let us down… 11. Lehmann made to blinding saves last and the team have now not conceded in 3 games, one of those 120 mins, Senderos looks like he is getting settled in… Flamini, is playing like Parlour at his best, Cesc, is just so bloody good, I really find it hard to believe he is only 13 years older than my little boy… It’s been a hard season, we have let ourselves down at times, we have been our brilliant selves, without consistency, the draws against Southampton, WBA, Man City Etc, not good enough… 12. I’m feeling good after last night, the futures bright, the kids look good, the stadium on it’s way, Wenger’s, still the man at the helm and says big named signing are his next target, but then I already told you that a few weeks back (of course as soon as the names become available, I’ll let you know)… I haven’t seen it yet, but I’m told Sky are showing an interview with Fat Sam all today, I wonder what he could be saying…

Decaf
March 11, 2005

Yes, Gooner 7. Its hard to reconcile the 'season of transition' rhetoric with those (non-)substitutions. You would think that Wenger would be giving young hopefuls 30 minutes or so and giving the stalwarts well deserved rests/wakeup calls. Remember big Phil substituting Figo in the Euro's?

Eskimo
March 11, 2005

At least watching Arsenal beat Chelsea on FA Cup Classic (SS2) will cheer me up a bit right now.

Mee
March 11, 2005

While there is almost universal forum agreement about the positives from last night’s performance, on a negative note some people seem to advocating Vieira relinquishing not only the captaincy, but his place in the side. I think we have to place his recent performances in some kind of context. The changes to the team through suspensions and injuries has meant that young, inexperienced players have been thrust into the side and established players asked to play in unaccustomed roles. As a result Vieira’s confidence, belief and authority have been undermined to the point where he indeed, looks a shadow of the player he can be. Of course we might be seeing the first signs of a waning of his powers, but can we be sure until people like Gilberto and Campbell are fit to return? If, as some of you think, the interest from Madrid should be rekindled and Vieira be sold in the summer, is it not a season too late to extract the maximum fee? Alex Ferguson, whatever else we may think of him has proved in the past that he is a master at judging when a player is approaching his sell-by date, or his maximum value on the market, Ince being a prime example. Perhaps Wenger should have had the courage to do the same. He has a similar dilemma to face now with Ashley Cole, should he twist or stick?

Decaf
March 11, 2005

"I wish all our players underperformed in Europe like Henry does. If they did, I reckon we might have won it by now." Well said that man.

Gooner7
March 11, 2005

Why did DB10 stay throughout the 90? He just could not find the killer pass, nor was strong enough to run the ball. Quincy is our answer. He runs at defences, and gives options. It is so easy to defend our attacking play, just bugger Henry till he loses the ball. And why do we always insist on playing the ball into goal. Make more goal attempts please !!! Poor Vieira, his shooting accuracy is way down the tenth percentile. Wenger lost the tactical plot again. Flamini and Senderos are our saving graces, thank goodness.

Decaf
March 10, 2005

EEG, is the problem that Ljungberg and Reyes are 'small' or that Reyes continually gives the ball away, and Fred at the moment, while not as profligate as Reyes, hardly ever moves the ball forward? Another hopeful sign is that Kolo looked better and better as the game wore on last night, and might be returning to formt. I hope so, becuase he and Senderos might complement each other beautifully if they live up to their promise. Senderos looks like a classical, bus-in-front-of-goal-like, ball in row ZZ if necessary, centre-half. Kolo relies on his pace more and has a bit more going forward.

Bernard
March 10, 2005

First chance to post since Tuesday as I had no access to a computer yesterday, but as everyone knows I passed over my former title as Ljungberg's biggist critic on the forum to DaveM some while ago. But I see now that my second place is appearing to be under increasing threat after yet another woeful display by him (I wish he'd been mediocre yesterday, as that would have been a great improvement). Even Niall, while valiently jumping to his defence after a post by DaveM, said later in the very same defensive post that we need to sign a new right-sided midfielder. Changing subjects, I also noticed Munich Gooner saying how Henry doesn't perform in Europe. Well Munich, as he's the competition's third highest goalscorer and plays for a club that's never even reached the semi-final in it, I wish all our players underperformed in Europe like Henry does. If they did, I reckon we might have won it by now. I just think it's so lazy to come out with this 'he doesn't do it in big games' claptrap. People that do it latch on to what some poor (meaning bad, not unfortunate or poverty-stricken) journalists have claimed without bothering to think of all the very big games where he's performed incredibly well. Anyway, 178 now and only 7 from Wright's record, so 8 to beat it. However, with no more games in Europe and being injured for Saturday's FA Cup game, there might only be 9 premiership games to go this season - 11 at most overall if we get through to the FA Cup final, so it looks like it'll be early next season.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 10, 2005

The FA Cup would be nice, but if there is one thing Mr Wenger MUST now focus on is beating ManU in the league. We have never beaten them two seasons running and it would mean a good deal for the Club's confidence going forward. I sadly agree with others that REYES looked like a spent force and I would not be surprised if he featured in a Spanish swap deal (Ronaldinho? Deco? Casillas?) in the Summer. Big plusses were SENDEROS, FABREGAS and FLAMINI. A concern though seeing LEHMANN playing brilliantly. Could his performance last night make Mr Wenger think again on spending good money on a new keeper? Sounds like HENRY will not be playing at BOLTON. Are we good enough, strong enough to win or bring them back to Higbbury?

Bristol Gooner
March 10, 2005

Daz I know that and as I say I wasn't defending him it was just Romford asked that question before going on to slag Reyes. I just thought I may as well point out his one good contribution to the game as it at least showed some commitment. And lets not forget, Henry only ever chases back like that when he's lost the ball too. Anyway I don't want to get caught up in details when we should be looking at the bigger picture. Forgot to say It was good to see Gilberto on the bench, no matter what people think of him it's always heartening to see someone come back from a big injury. Hope Senderos keeps his place now and apart from a shot at winning the FA cup, this rest of this season at least allows us the chance to give our very talented youngsters more invaluable experience. Back to Reyes and it's going to be very interesting to see if Wenger admits he seems to have made a mistake and cashes in on him (not sure what his value would be at present though). No amount of scouting and research is going to tell you how a player will settle in a foreign country and while he's obviously talented i'm just not sure he's got the mentality to cope with living away from home. But hey for every Reyes there's a Fabregas and I trust Wenger to bring in the right players in the summer.

ed
March 10, 2005

Have to aggree with most on here. Sendoros will be a revelation and a born leader over the coming years..I still think he needs more time though and Bolton will be a toughie for the lad as he was visible and understandable tired towards the end of last night...Flamini was excellent, but i fully understand changing him for cesc. Flamini is quite cumbersome on the ball and his touch isn't great whereas cesc can open up a defense in a split second. I think this season is the last we'll see of the master himself db10 and fl08 who has given great service, but cant bring us any further. Reyes is a problem for Arsene though....I dont think he'll do it us, but will make it big somewhere...Wenger is quite stubborn with big signings, so i'll watch this one carefully...Vieira did alright last night...He's not a captain, but you would certainly have him in your team....We need to bring in an Experienced and quality keeper/centrehalf/wide midefielder and 1 quality striker and i would be very suprised if wenger doesn't add 4 new signings to these positions over the summer....A kitty of 40m (and posible the sale of fl08 and maybe reyes) would bring in massive quality.....I really do think we needed to take one step back(or quite a few) this season to jump a few higher for the following season...Some people see it as the end of an era, but others see it as the begining of something new and exciting..This summer will tell all!!!!!

Bored
March 10, 2005

Agree with Daz about Reyes. He only ran back 60 yards because he gave the ball away cheaply when in a rare attacking position...

Bored
March 10, 2005

Decaf: I suppose it could be interpreted as an excuse. However, the fact remains that since our defeat at Old Trafford the team seems jaded and cant defend a lead. Many of our important players who you would expect to drag the team out of this slump are having very poor seasons (Pires, Reyes, Vieira, Ljungberg, Lauren, Kolo) and instead its the kids (and Henry) who are fighting to save the season. I would expect at least 2 big name players to leave in the summer...

Singapore Gooner
March 10, 2005

I remember posting about 2 years back after we were knocked out by valencia saying that I wouldn't mind if we ended up empty handed that season if it meant blooding our youngsters. While it didn't happen that season, it appears that this just may be our transition season after all. I take some positives out of last nights result, most of which are Arsene's realization that our squad needs strengthening and Senderos' performance. I would have preferred we got knocked out early rather than have our deficiencies masked by a longer run in the Champs League. I also think our youngsters deserve whatever praise that have been accorded to them - and i'm particularly heartened by the "bottle" (as you British call it) that they have demonstrated. I also think that some players, Vieira and Reyes especially, deserve some slack. While Vieira's performance last night was uninspiring, I think many have been more than happy to jump on his back when he's underperformed while refusing to acknowledge that his form for the past weeks have actually been not all that bad. Likewise for Reyes - he's 21 and I actually thought his form was picking up prior to last night's shocker. I still think he has a lot of potential in him and it maybe good to let him have a run of games towards the end of the season to build his confidence. Keep the faith - we'll be back next season...we usually are. P.S. Think the Chelsea-Barca game probably means Ronaldinho is never going there...and that can't be a bad thing

Daz
March 10, 2005

Maybe if Reyes hadn't lamely given the ball away in the first place (again) he wouldn't have had to run back like that. He's not there for that anyway, had he played well I think we might have been in with a much better chance. Decaf: neither he nor Bergkamp, nor the hard-working but limited Ljungberg could cope with Bayern's pressing which is not good enough. Having said that, I do agree with EEG that it was a wholly different performance from the one on Munich in so far as it didn't leave you hanging your head in shame. Nevertheless, another massive game, another failure. You can bitch and moan all you like about Chelsea - they went out and did what they had to and we didn't. Two big bright spots - Senderos defending like we haven't seen in a long time (with poise and authority) and Henry's utterly beautiful goal.

Bristol Gooner
March 10, 2005

Well it's nice to come on here and read some very sensible, constructive criticism. Although we didn't dazzle last night we tried and if we'd played half as well a fortnight ago might well be in the hat for tomorrow's draw. As most I thought Senderos was fantastic considering his age, the current state of our defense as a whole and the fact it was his CL debut. Reyes and Bergkamp were obviously far from match sharp and we all know DB10 needs a run of games to be anywhere near his best. Unfortunately Ljungberg & Vieira have no such excuse. I think we will see some big changes in the summer with some big names probably coming and going. Oh and it was nice to see that bloke who can't do it in the big games to ram some peoples words down their throat with a brilliantly taken goal.

Bristol Gooner
March 10, 2005

Romford, I'm not defending him as I thought he was very poor last night, but in answer to your question who else would chase back 50 yards to win a tackle I'm sure I saw Reyes do just that?

Romford Gooner
March 10, 2005

I should be really fed up last night but I'm not. TO be honest I'm glad we're out as we'd have only got beat next round if we had got through. The most important thing to come out of last night were Wengers post game comments regarding buys in the summer. Everybody can see that this team can win comfortably in the premiership but can't do it in Europe but at last Wenger has realised that we're simply not good enough. Good to see Senderos show that he's possibly the long term answer to our defensive frailties but after that you'd be hard picked to pick out anyone special. Was I the only one who was fed up with Flamini coming off last night whilst our fireproof captain can play as crap as he wants without ever being substituted?? I'd have rather have had Stuart Taylor in midfield last night as Vieira gave crap performance no.25 of the season. The Opta stats show he made 57 accurate passes last night! Well if he did I didn't see any of them as he did a better job of giving the ball to Munich players then any of their own players. He shows no leadership and needs to be stripped of a) the captaincy and b) his permanent place in the side. My mates were all in agreement that a phone call to Madrid in the summer to resurrect that deal wouldn't go amiss either. Henry has to be the next captain as he plays with so much passion, who else chases back 50 yards into his own half to win tackles?? Agree with the comments re Reyes who looks totally lost and plays as if he can't stand it here. All in all we weren't good enough but I await this summers transfer dealings with interest.

Nico
March 10, 2005

decaf, I was trying to explain why I think Freddie's been yapping away a lot recently, justifying his crap displays by flexing his muscles as Paddy's co-skipper. If your question refers to my recent activities, I've been busy, but certainly not diabolical, unless it's not for me to judge myself, bollix being in the eye of the beholder!

East End Gooner
March 10, 2005

Last night was one of optimism for me. We lost the tie in Munich. Paper this morning says that Bayern have NEVER lost by two goals in the Champion's League (must be the knock-out stages). As it was the performance was one of our best in Europe. The first time we have beaten a true top side on top form. Yes they over-ran us first half - same problem of our weak wings leaving us hugely exposed in midfield (we need the option of bigger wide midfielders as opposed to always playing wingers) - but we defended brilliantly and Senderos showed why some people were fools for jumping to judgement after his first few games. Overall, I thought it looked like a European performance (finally). We dealt with their attack and then got the goal through that famous non-European-performing flat-track bully. Not enough and there is real room for improvement but the damage was done before.

Decaf
March 10, 2005

Nico, are you up to something diabolical?

Decaf
March 10, 2005

Daz, I don't agree with your assessment. I think everyone was battling away as hard as they could (eg Reyes seemed to put in a lot more defensive effort than in Munich, although his attacking input was negligable), but apart from the two you mention plus Toure and Lehman, didn't have much of a clue what they were supposed to be doing. Our tactical plan was so ineffectual, and the chances of us breaking Bayern down with Reyes and Ljungberg on the wing was very poor. In the first forty minutes we simply couldn't get any possession in the last third. Is it a coincidence that the 'decent' performances were all in positions were the role is fairly obvious (ie central defenders, GK, and midfield skivvy)?

Nico
March 10, 2005

offer Arsene, of course

Nico
March 10, 2005

DHD, two points. Firstly, there's a problem of leadership at the Club. Remember the story about Fred not being singled out after our lame perfomance at Anfield? Well maybe it's all gone to his tiny little head and he now thinks he's joint skipper cos there's yet another story that he reckons he can boss people around on the training ground, and that he's clashed with Vieira on that score. Now we've heard about clashes with Paddy at other times this season - e.g Ralphie after our limp-wristed perfomance at Rosenborg, and you can multiply all the stories you hear to get nearer the total of those they manage to keep under wraps. We need a skipper and Paddy's not the one, nor is Freddie, and we don't need disruption, so both should go. Nice idea, Arsene, but it's come to the end of the road. Point 2 - I find it interesting that Fred looks better from the lower tier. Do you think that's why Wenger still has his rose tinted specs on over him? Maybe I should Arsene some spare tickets from time to time to look at his players from higher up. Face value as always, Monsieur le Boss!

Decaf
March 10, 2005

Bored, I don't want to sound to negative, and I'm still prepared to trust Wenger, but doesn't this rebuilding story sound like post hoc justification? I was hoping the Wenger revolution might be a continuous one, with one or two young/new players being drafted in each season. A tough one.

Bored
March 10, 2005

Did Cole actually touch the ball in the first half? Actually all the players on the flanks were pretty poor last night.....

Bored
March 10, 2005

Apparently Houllier said in an interview that Wenger is looking forward to the challenge of rebuilding this Arsenal team. It was implied that Wenger has already started THIS season, so maybe the introduction of all these youngsters is not as random as it appears.

Daz
March 10, 2005

Flamini and Senderos were, last night, the only two players with any real bollocks. The latter looks like he might become sensational. Reyes was a E*Ging disgrace, looking a worse signing than Wiltord because at least you would have SEEN him doing his ocean-liner-turning-course routine. With Reyes's current form a swap deal including Lee Chapman looks attractive. Bergkamp had a terrible game and I've long given up expecting anything of Freddie. He's not a winger, he can't beat anybody, he rarely gets behind the defender and I hope he leaves. Henry was absolute class and his goal a joy to behold. I have been - as some may recall - quite keen on Ashley Cole. Last night he played like a E*G with his head already somewhere else.

Decaf
March 10, 2005

Patrick, as I said just now, apart from his finishing ability and neat interchanges, I rate Pires' diagonal runs either into the box or across the face of the box as the key weapon we have for pulling well-set defenses out of shape. When the Cole/Henry/Pires thing is working we are virtually unstoppable down that side, massed defenses notwithstanding. Unfortunately we haven't had enough of that this season for various reasons, and it seems clear a) that Pires does not prosper in other positions, and b) that our left is nowhere near as effective unless Pires is there. Henry wasn't going to the left last night, especially in the first half, and I think that the main reason was that the main main wasn't there. Another thing I noticed last night is that after Pires came on, Bayern were leaving a lot of space down the right, which we were woefully unable to exploit, even though, unfortunately, Bergy and Vieira kept sending it that way.

Patrick
March 10, 2005

Why has bobby pires been used so sparingly this season and when he has played its been out of position on the right. i think this is the reason for our poor form. we havent been a threat down the left wing because the link up play between him henry and cole hasnt been there. i know hes getting older but hes only 31 and we should be getting the most out of him while we can.

DHD
March 10, 2005

On my FL8 road to Damascus thing, I think it was Leighton James (70’s orthodox winger for Wales, Derby and Forest) of whom his new manager (was it Clough?) said on seeing him perform at the training ground for the first time “You’re not nearly as fast as you look are you?”.

goonerguru
March 10, 2005

DHD I do agree with you that Flamini will never be the most exciting player the world has ever seen,far from it but he is an all action box to box player,brave and never afraid to put his foot in where it hurts and I think we've needed that type of player for some time now it is just a shame that he arrives when most of our creative players decide to go AWOL.

Darren
March 10, 2005

I had pretty much reconciled myself with us being out long before the kick off last night. However, I am now more convinced than ever that this team has gone as far as it can. Major surgery is required to restore some belief adn some steel into the side. We are being out-fought and out-thought too many times now and Daz is right when he says we don't win the big games. We have been overtaken by Chelsea this season and only the most myopic gooner would deny this. Sure their fourth goal was a bit dodgy but they were brave from the start and really went for it and ultimately got exactly what their performance deserved. I love Arsene to bits and understand he has his hands tied financially, but Chelsea have moved things so dramatically that it's no longer a viable policy to remain frugal adn rely entirely on unproven talent. Thankfully, it looks like the board are releasing some funds for team buliding, but I am fed up with our policy of winning the league and then not strengthening. Not only does it re-invigorate the squad but it sends out such a message of intent to the rest of the league. I was with Bernard on the issue of Michael Owen, but having seen Reyes' display last night I am convinced the boy won't make it at AFC and would rather have had Owen on the pitch last night to be honest, despite his obvious weaknesess. The real plus was Phillipe Senderos - proper defending from someone who looks like he could be a true and proper centre half.Brave, honest, strong. Also, Michael Ballack is a truly fantastic player. He is the sort of player you need if you want to win the CL. Guile, craft and strength. The first half was all about Bayern's tactical awareness and technical strengths. They were so in control. I know we scored the first but never really looked ever likely to get the 2nd. As I said, I had already made my peace with the fact that we were going out so watched the game more objectively. We have never been further away from winning the CL in the seven years we have been competing in it. Arsene knows it too. Unfortunately the players do too. Hence, we could see alot of changes in the summer.

DHD
March 10, 2005

Decaf – to play where he does, Flamini needs to do all the things you say – and he does, he did last night. But if he’s to excel, he needs an extra dimension otherwise he’s the latest of a long line of meat-and-two-veg midfield journeymen. I’ve seen no evidence yet that he possesses anything special. I’m not blaming him for last night’s failure of our central mf but good hair ain’t going to be enough. On another tack, I’ve always supported FL8 in the face of criticism here and elsewhere but for me it was instructive watching him up at Sheffield last week. From my vantage point high up at Brammall Lane it was clear to me that Freddie didn’t have the pace to worry the SU defence; that came as a surprise as from my much lower viewing point at THOF, he always looks very brisk. Therefore in his orthodox wide-man position last night, it was no surprise to me that he did almost nothing. For me Freddie is increasingly displaying the attitude that did for Marc Overmars with his carping, diving and general unwillingness to take or ride any sort of challenge. Someone needs a strong word with our Fred but the trouble is, in his worryingly negative frame of mind, I think he’s taking his cue from our captain. Things don’t look good. I do agree about Cesc in the DB10 role though. From what I’ve seen when he’s played wider, he can certainly carry the ball well and has the ability to play a more dynamic game than central mf allows.

Nialll
March 10, 2005

It looks as if Wenger now realises that he may have to rebuild the team if he wants to win the Champions League. His frank admission that we are not good enough and the undertone of frustration could be a turning point. I think he has given this side long enough now and everybody is just fed up. I'd like ot see Wenger get ruthless like Ferguson has done in the past and restart. I'm sure the fans would be behind him 100%.

goonerguru
March 10, 2005

I am not one for wholesale changes but after a lot of performances this season and last nights game in particular,how many of these can anyone truthfully say will be playing for Arsenal in the next couple of years,Lehmann not good enough,Aluminia not good enough,Taylor not good enough,,Lauren will not get any better,Cygan not good enough,Campbell too injury prone,Cole may well be sold,Edu may well be sold,Vieira career now going backwards and may be sold,Ljungberg tries hard but is now not good enough,Pires getting older,Reyes can't wait to go back home,Van Persie thinks he's good but he isn't,DB10 will have retired,Ali/Bentley sorry but I don't think they will make it.Which leaves us with Clichy,Senderos,Flammini,Gilberto,Cesc,Quincy,Henry and not a lot else apart from a few fringe players and maybe the only reason Gilberto is not on the first list is because he hasn't played that much this season,so as I said I am not one for wholesale changes,but.............

Cannon Balls
March 10, 2005

I posted last week that bringing in new players only is not the answer to our CL problems,we also need some new tactics. After we had scored last night we again just ran out of ideas, with a few minutes remaining Vieria was wandering around in the centre cicle exchanging passes that amounted to nothing and eventualy we gave away the ball. Obviously Wenger was hoping that Bergkamp would be the playmaker, and Henry in his lengthy interview on Sky Tuesday afternoon indicated that this was the case. In fact that did not work out, and Vieria's who took it upon himself to assume that pivotal role was not good enough, his passing was poor, the Germans cutting out his efforts with ease ,much to his frustration. We are being out-gunned in MF far too much and Henry is not getting the service he thrives on, the goal came from a Hoofier type hoof over the top of the MF and Henrys magic did the rest. Liverpool were beating a German team using tactics different to the ones Houllier employedduring his tenure at the club, BL put Liverpool out of the CL last time those two played when Houllier was in charge, and the 'car thives' depending on vagaries of the draw, the Chavs?, could be unlikely finalists!. In the first half last night Henry had to take on the entire German defense on his own, and still nearly scored. Henry pointed out after the game that Spuds who play in the lane that time forgot and lowly Brum who play in a place that few have ever known have spent more money than us on buying players.Though looking at the league table one would never have guessed it.

Niall
March 10, 2005

I wasn't blaming it on him Decaf.

Decaf
March 10, 2005

Niall, Guttuso doesn't open teams up regularly, neither did Deschamps. He's a defensive mid with great courage and a great engine. Playing him works for Milan because all he has to do is win it and play it to the likes of Pirlo, Kaka, Seedorf, etc who can apply the finesse in spades. I'm not claiming the Flamini is necessarily in this class, just that we can't blame our disjointed performance last night on him. *** Parkernoll, I could't agree more. We have nothing to lose by trying Cesc in the Bergy role. Our reliance on an unreliable Bergy is very unhealthy.

GARY
March 10, 2005

According to the Evening Standard,TH14 is out of the cup tie with an injured calf.(though what an infant farmyard animal has to do with it I don't know)What with the northern cloggers and a cold north east blowing what we need is players to get their foot in.None of that fancy dan stuff.RVP to start deffo.

Niall
March 10, 2005

I think what DHD is saying is Flamini is an excellent harrier and can play nice short passes etc, but he is not the type of player who will consistently open teams up with a through ball or a moment of skill, especially teams like Bayern. I'd have to agree with him though Flamini did have a good game last night.

Decaf
March 10, 2005

DHD, I don't quite agree. I thought Flamini played just the role we needed him to, ie, harry, cover, get and give. I'm pretty sure he is capable of surging forward as well. The problem was the rest of the midfield. Start with the fact that Viera is not an attacking midfielder. He's always done his best work fairly deep. Intricate passing and shooting have never been his big thing. Next, Ljungberg and Reyes simply don't offer enough cohesion, and made surprisingly few good runs into the box. Until Pires came on, I though we were plodding when we went wide on both sides. From thinking that we don't need another 'winger', I've gone right across to the Bernard school of thought that we need a quality right sided player more than we need a CH. Senderos reminds me a little of Stam. Finally, it seems blindingly obvious to me that if Pires is unfit, and Reyes woefully off form, the obvious thing is to push Cole forward and slot in Clichy. Cole's defending is a bit ropey at the moment anyway.

DHD
March 10, 2005

After a miserable week of anticipation, I slept rather better last night. The result wasn’t that great a surprise so it didn’t exactly rip the guts out. It was good to see a fair proportion of the crowd wait to applaud the Germans at the end; there was a widespread understanding that we were beaten by a better team who outplayed us pretty comprehensively in each of the 2 legs. It’s difficult to draw conclusions from the game and I’ve seen no replays nor read anything here but several strands emerged for me. JAR, FL8 & DB10 were mightily disappointing last night. Though he scored a brilliant goal – and I mean one of the best I’ve seen – TH14 has no real work rate. He makes the occasional eye-catching run and chases around ‘pour encourager les autres’ when he feels the need but there’s no consistent probing or engaging of the opposition back line. That’s a cheapish shot really because he’s by far our most important player but again a well organised defence dealt with him pretty well. PV4 looked stifled and over-run. He seemed to give the ball away a lot again. Bayern seemed to rule the central midfield. I’m really sorry to say it again but Flamini is too limited a player to hold down a starting place in central midfield. He harries well but he has no range or scope of passing and certainly no vision; he just cannot play the perceptive pass and his game will always suffer in comparison to those that can. Wishing for the moon, I know but I think Edu would have made a big big difference. Cesc sharpened things up a lot when he took over and you’d wonder why he and RP7 weren’t used earlier. In defence, Senderos was everything you’d look for in a CD – skilful, athletic, commanding, authoritative and aggressive. Kolo remains a worry. AC3 had one of his quieter games and Ralphy was ok. As for Bayern, they seemed to have more men on the pitch than us. They were super quick to the tackle and just never let us settle. They looked more dangerous than us for most of the game and if we’re honest, they were better than us in every position, TH14 apart. I thought Ballack was truly awesome; if there’s ever a sniff of him becoming available, we should break the bank. Well, at least we lasted longer than the Mancs.

Juliano
March 10, 2005

I didn't think we'd make it before, and didn't want to believe in it by fear of being too disappointed, so I only checked the score and forums from time to time. I thought we'd give it all in the first half without scoring, get hit on the break and that a late rally would see us get an equalizer and maybe even an honourific victory. At half time it looked like we were second best and hadn't been able to take the game by the scruff of the neck, so it looked even worse than my pessimistic scenario. And then I saw all the "YESSSSS" on the forums, at the 69th minute leaving 20 mins to get a second, I started to believe it... so there I am, really disappointed this morning. But there are some positives : for one of the first times, we've been able to win a game in Europe, against one of the very best teams, when things didn't go our way. Usually when it's not our day you see the team's morale go down, and we concede, but last night the team kept a clean sheet, and kept trying even though the first half had been poor. This is what is needed in Europe, patience, and a 'professional' game. We are out, but there is plenty to learn from that game I think. Also, I am really glad to see that Senderos is starting to look like the gem we had bought. PTBAG.Congrats to Tezza for reaching the same number of goals as the great Cliff Bastin!

old man of hoy
March 10, 2005

One other bright point was Gilberto being on the bench - that announcement raised the biggest cheer of the night apart from Thierry's moment of magnificence. The collar waits - to cheer you up - Meyer’s parrot had died and he was lonely once again. He quickly decided that life would be more fun if he had another pet. So Meyer went back to the Golders Green pet store and told the owner that he wanted to buy another pet, but this time a bit more unusual. After some discussion, he finally bought a talking centipede, which came in a little white box to use for his house. Meyer took the box home. He found a good place to put it and decided he would immediately take his new pet to the local pub to have a drink and show it off. He asked the centipede in the box, "Would you like to go to The Leather Bottle with me and have a beer?" But there was no answer from his new pet. This bothered Meyer a bit, but he waited a few minutes and then asked his pet again, "How about going to The Leather Bottle and having a drink with me?" But again, there was no answer from his new friend and pet. So Meyer waited a few minutes more, thinking about the situation. He decided to ask one more time, this time putting his face up against the centipede's house and shouting, "Hey, you in there! Would you like to go to The Leather Bottle and have a drink with me?" A little voice came out of the box: "I heard you the first time! I'm putting on my shoes."

simon
March 10, 2005

just goes to show you can't afford a sloppy 15 mins at this level. Man Utd at Highbury and Bayern away took advantage of terrible 15 minute defensive spells and scored twice against us. It leaves you with too much to do. My only disspaointment is that we didnt really have a go in the ten minutes after we scored last night and for the final 10. Although I didn't think bayern offered anything particularly special, their pressing game is truly superb and their organisation is first class. I wouldn't be surprised to see them shock a few people and get right to the business end of this competition. Interesting to see no Spanish sides even made the qaurters. ALthough Barca were disgracefully robbed. And Liverpool made it by taking advantage of a nice draw against a very poor Leverkusen. Chelsea also made it through (albeit on the back of a good performance) on the strength of an atrocious refereeing decision. So perhaps the two "strongest leagues in the world aren't quite as good as everyone thinks. I've been most impressed with Barca, Milan and Bayerns short passing, organisation and comfort at the top level

Cannon Balls
March 10, 2005

This eulogizing of Mourinho's Chelsea on here is becoming nauseating in it's slavish servility. Chelsea like in the LC final against Liverpool needed an own goal away to Barca and that dodgy Terry one at home to see them through. Lets see how they will get on against Bayern Munich or AC Milans more organized pragmatic approach. If you look at Chelseas first three goals the other night they were like an away team hitting on the counter, with Barca playing like Kamakazi pilots having drunk five bottles each of Saki on a last suicide mission. The Chav's may win the league for which they are rightly fav's, unless something untoward happens, like Terry gets injured, three defeats, us at the Bridge, away to Manure and the last game of the season at the Bar-Codes, plus another City result at home, could still see them miss out, they have not got the points in the bag yet. They were very close to going out of the CL the other night, and these over the top crazed celebrations after each contentious and somewhat fortious result are becoming tiresome, champions should act like them, not like an over excited team of school girl net ball players, with Mourinho looking like a pissed Miss hugging and kissing them, prats!.

Decaf
March 10, 2005

Had Pires been on the pitch from half-time, and had we given the ball to him more frequently, instead of mucking about on the right, we would have had a chance. Pires getting the ball wide and making those diagonal run, with Cole, Henry, Bergy, etc moving into dangerous positions, is our best weapon. We haven't uses Pires properly or enough this season.

Championship Manager
March 10, 2005

I'm already looking forward to next season. This season hasn't been that bad. Our expectations were a bit too much. We have had injury problems and that cost us this season. But there have been many positives as well, namely fabregas, flamini, senderos, clichy, van persie, quincy and the return of aliadiere. Next season my Arsenal team will play 4-3-3 (tree formation) to combat the 5-men-midfield other teams seem to favour (the fullbacks will lend support to the midfield making it 5 vs 5, and the 2 cbs will handle the lone striker). My team next season: GK - Hildebrand, defence - Cole, Campbell, senderos, toure, midfield - edu, gilberto, vieira, forwards - van persie, henry, quincy. 2nd eleven: GK - Lehmann, defence - clichy, cygan, hoyte, lauren, midfield - fabregas, flamini, eboue, forwards - reyes/pires, aliadiere, ljungberg.

Andy In Singapore
March 10, 2005

US Martin –I am certainly not one to gloat at being correct at the expense of Arsenal’s success - thanks for pointing that out. I simply strongly disagree with some of what you said (not all of it). I am sorry that you are too upset to talk but you posted a long piece so I thought it ok to answer it. I am gutted too that we were so close – but like many experts also said – we lost it in Munich through crap defending (you can always find ‘experts’ to support your view somewhere). I just believe the answer to our problems mainly lay in defense rather than attack (although we can improve both of course) and that’s because I am a rather simple person who takes things at face value. Anyway you have a big ‘up’ on me because you are probably with your girlfriend now whilst I am sitting in my office typing into cyberspace. How sad is that.

Nick Ong
March 10, 2005

I actually dreamt that we won big (5-2 I think...) Couldn't wake up for the match (4am local time). Good to win B.Munich even though we didn't get through. So close, one more goal will suffice. Anyhow, I'll look forward to this Sat. FA cup vs Fat Sam's Bolton. Still a gooner, forever so.

US Martin
March 10, 2005

Andy, I really can't argue tonight as I get no pleasure from my views ever being vindicated at the expense of the team's success. I won't go see we lost that proves me right. If being proven right when we lose gives you pleasure, well...That's not meant personally to you, but towards the professional arguers(is that a word?)who would almost take pleasure in our losing if they could say see I told you so - and they are here and on every board. Fortunately there are far fewer here. Anyway, all I said about the back was with Senderos' emergennce that if Campbell stays healthy(a BIG if now)between him Kolo, Senderos and Cygan, maybe - as other posters have said tonight before me we don't have an urgent need to buy at the back. As for my contention about what we need to do up front - THAT was a MAJOR point addressed by television commentators post-match tonight paid for their expertise. So maybe it isn't quite so obvious after all. Right now I don't give a f**k if that's right or not, no offense. Tonight sucks no matter who's to blame or why. Just sucks. This is when the girlfriend helps, and right now even that ain't...I'm out...

Andy In Singapore
March 10, 2005

And while I am on a roll (and it is a very quiet day in the office) I would like to add to the much maligned Philosophy/Sophist debate. Now my only knowledge of Philosophy is gleaned from reading Sophie’s World a few years ago so I am certainly no expert. My simplistic view is that most schools of philosophy had a certain point of view and used logical argument to put that point of view across. Whereas Sophists used argument and rhetorical techniques to put across any point of view that they were paid to. The fact that some Philosophers were Sophists and some Sophists were Philosophers does not make Sophism a subset of Philosophy. However I am happy to be corrected by anyone, especially those with PhDs or have more time to Google than I. PPTBAG (Philosophically Proud To Be Gooner) since 500 BC.

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

Niall, no offense taken, so what exactly, using my recent posts as an example was I "usually" wrong about? Some constructive criticism, please. **** Nico, you misinterpreted my post about Henry. I wasn't suggesting selling him, only that some people who flip flop, by clamoring for a player to be a starter after he has a good game and a few weeks later after a bad game wants that same player sold and only Henry is immune from that as well he should be. The flip floppers base their opinion on a player solely on the last game the person played. As for as people going and coming in, I'm in agreement that there should be changes. Who leaves and comes in is the only thing that is debated. **** Andy in Singapore regarding Senderos. Spot on as they say. A lot of folks wanted van Persie to start after his Soton goal, now some of the same want him sold after his sending off in the FA cup.

Andy In Singapore
March 10, 2005

US Martin – why do you always look for something that is not there, when the obvious is staring you in the face? Attack is not our problem; our defense is – it is as clear as daylight! Look at the goals for and against columns in the league table for crying out loud. In Europe it has been our defensive frailty that has let us down again and again. We should never have left Munich 3-1 down. If it had been 2-1 we would be through now. 1-0 at home is ok in Europe. I do agree that we should make more of set pieces but with the tall athletic players we have (Gilberto, Vieira, Henry, Campbell, Senderos) we should be able to make something of that – but your theory that we can introduce a good-in-the-air forward and score more goals is daft. Teams that rely on that approach pump the ball into the box for 90 minutes in the hope they will get lucky (and against us they often do). We would have to sacrifice our natural game to do that and for what, we are the top scorers already. It’s a bit like your weird conspiracy theory about our board – frankly I would take Mr. Dein, Fitzman and co. (even that old duffer Hill-Wood) over any of the premiership boards who seem to be either Russian gangsters, Irish mafia or lack any real ambition for their clubs that would cost them money. FPTBAG (for quite a while now).

US Martin
March 10, 2005

"The End of the Invincibles" - what a load of complete rubbish. We are out and Chelsea are through because they converted a corner and we didn't - plain and simple. Think about that. With out Terry's goal from a corner they go otu on away goals. If we score one from a corner we go through on away goals. If anyone disputes our failure to seriously focus on attacking set-piecesand our inability to at least attack a few balls across the box has hurt us at least as much as our defensive frailties now it is out of sheer stubborness or a lack of understanding of how Arsenal went unbeaten last year and have failed to this year, or of the narrow margin between cantering to the Championship last year and falling short by almost as much this year(if we do fall short - I won't concede till we simply cannot win enough points). Last year with yes a stronger defense and central mid-field partner for Patrick and fewer sides playing nine in the box and refusing to chase the game even down a goal than this year, ala Bolton the last five years. We don't need to overhaul this team. Keeper is the one position where really I think an player is needed. Jens is not getting Younger and Almunia is still uncertain, though he was brilliant at Sheffield during the penalties. The sole concern at the back for me is Sol's regular availability. Senderos came of age tonight, and Kolo is Solid enough, but we need Sol to protect them at least another season or two, or a similar-type player to cover him, partner him or replace him. If we move Kolo wide than maybe there is still room for Cygan as well. Mid-field is set - almost. Of course question one surrounds Vieira. I suspect he will be staying, but we will have to wait and see which rumors are true again. The real key will be if Gilberto Silva can come back and perform as he did his first two years. Best of luck to him, no matter how it benefits Arsenal. But if he can't and Edu leaves as expected we may need to consider going for Essien(probaly most affordable, definitely most versatile, and that and being French can't hurt his chances here), VanBommel(has the toughness but the fitness is less certain), Mascherano(if we can wait in line long enough) or Gerrard(there's always the National Lottery) could be sought to partner/cover Vieira alongside Cesc, whose future could be massive. The real issues are wide and up-front. Do we get an aerial striker? Or at least a more aerial striker? Why not Trezeguet? Great personal and football chemistry with Henry, skills on the deck and more than good enough in the air by Arsenal standards. Or maybe Cisse? Yes, he's hurt, but he's up-front, so his recovery should be quicker and easier and the mancs gambled and won with horseface. And if there's no room at Anfield for him why not? If we do though do we need more traditional wingers or our current wingers to play more traditionally and get more crosses in than now? And who will our wingers be? Only Pires seems certain to return right now, his age and fitness uncertainties making him less attractive than Freddie on the other side to other clubs, if slightly so. Reyes can play on either wing or up-front, but again we'll have to see which rumors are or aren't true before we know he's here. In either case look for Bentley to return and see some time wide as Pennant has done his chances in. In any event if we address our problems at either end of the pitch and ideally at both and get the mid-field improvement we certainly will, going unbeaten is hardly certain but we will have a BETTER team than last year's by some margin and for some time. This kind of article and the ignorance it shows in furiates me. A ten-goal swing in the League (five for us five fewer for them-had to break it down because I was confusing myself on the math) and a two-goal swing in Europe and we are odds-on favorites to win the Treble THIS year. Ignorant rubbish. If Wenger gets us heading the ball more often at least on corners and we're a fair bit healthier, whoever wrote that will look even more of an idiot. I fully expect them to...

G. Playa
March 10, 2005

If I had said to you at the beginning of the week that out of the two London clubs still in the Champions League, one would win 4-2 and one would win 1-0, you wouldn’t have put your money on Arsenal keeping the clean sheet, would you? How ironic that Chelsea conceded two goals on Tuesday – four on aggregate – whilst Arsenal, for all our defensive frailties, conceded none, although three on aggregate. Firstly, the Germans were fantastic. It may sound like a cliché, but they were incredibly organised, which made them very difficult to break down. Last year we faced Celta Vigo in the second round. You just really can’t put the two on the same level. Which is why I feel only the obvious disappointment at going out in the second round, rather than believing that Arsenal really should have beaten Bayern. It wouldn’t be surprising if Bayern turned up for the Champions League final, whereas Vigo (if they were still in the competition) would look slightly more out of place there. It was not only Bayern that played well. Arsenal put in a very good performance, but the damage had already been done in the first leg, by conceding three goals. Otherwise, winning against Bayern - and not conceding - would have been a great result. Considering individual players, Henry scored a lovely goal and proved that he does turn up for the big games. On his Champions League debut, Senderos had a great night. He deserved his lucky escape near the end when his header back to Lehmann went short. The midfield was still getting overrun. I wouldn’t have started with Reyes, and would have liked to see Clichy involved at some point.Overall, this wasn’t a bad result. Chelsea got through to the next round by a contentious goal, and it’s also worth noting that they wouldn’t have scored 4 goals against Bayern. And there’s always the slight consolation that Man U were rubbish. We weren’t going to win the cup this season, but we should be proud of the commitment of the players. We won 1-0 against a very good Bayern side, and it was really defensive errors, an issue that everybody is aware of, that cost us three goals. Good luck to Liverpool, although they obviously don’t need it, having drawn Leverkusen in the second round…

The end of the Invincibles.
March 10, 2005

Ten months after their Invincibles went through a whole Premiership campaign unbeaten, Arsenal are surely looking for a new team, a fresh start, a different route back to the summit of English football. For half an hour here last night, Arsenal walked the line between unlikely glory and perhaps having to start all over again. Leading 1-0 from Thierry Henry's breathtaking finish, they were suspended between two possibilities.One was another painfully premature exit from the competition that measures real quality in Europe. To depart so early in a year when the Gunners seem certain to finish third in the Premiership for the first time in Arsène Wenger's eight-year reign would have implied that a cul de sac had been reached. The fine Arsenal side who remained unvanquished in the 2003-2004 Premiership season would need to be dismantled and rebuilt.The other glinting possibility was that the Gunners would emulate Chelsea and overturn a first-leg deficit in thrilling fashion. Then, the doubts about their apparent lack of conviction this season would subside. A Champions League quarter-final would beckon. Wenger's men could disappear into the night knowing that anything Chelsea could do, they could do just as well.This tantalising double-scenario held through wave after wave of Arsenal attacks, led by Henry, who chased lost balls, slalomed into threatening positions and generally conveyed a deep appetite for battle and a profound love for his club. Henry had marched into a press conference on Tuesday to dispute the assertion that he goes AWOL in the biggest games. Here actions spoke louder than words. He, more than Patrick Vieira, is the custodian of Arsenal's soul and the future should be built around him.Stand at the top of Avenell Road and you can see the blazing lights of Highbury below and the cranes of Ashburton Grove off to the left. The paving stones that afford this view must be hallowed ground to Arsenal fans: the past and the future in one arresting panorama.For a minimum four-year package costing £16,000, those supporters can buy the best seats on the halfway line. But before Arsenal can pack their trunk and shift it a mile down the road - and justify those prices - they have another year to construct a new team capable of combating the blue menace of Chelsea and reaching the real business end of the Champions League. Arsenal's supremacy in the capital has held throughout Wenger's tenure. Until now, when there is clear and present danger to the club's position as top dogs. Nothing symbolised that shift quite like Chelsea's audacious attempt to lure Ashley Cole away from Highbury (allegedly) for twice his current salary. Until, that is, Chelsea lit the night sky with that 4-2 victory over Barcelona, which spoke volumes about Jose Mourinho's men. Above all, it confirmed their big-game temperament, their mighty winning spirit.No question loomed as large last night as this challenge to Arsenal's character and reputation: could they seize Germany's top team by the neck, the way Chelsea had throttled the best side in Spain? This time there was to be no extravaganza of attacking football of the sort we saw at Stamford Bridge. Arsenal picked up the gauntlet all right, but too late.Chelsea skated to a 3-0 lead in less than 20 minutes. Arsenal's first half was at the opposite end of the scale. Their followers craved a return to the thrilling demolition jobs of a year ago. They yearned to see Henry and Jose Antonio Reyes recapture the intoxicating rhythms that made Arsenal the most entertaining team in the land. Two-nil would do it. Not much to ask, was it? Well, yes, once Bayern made it abundantly clear that they were full of self-assurance from their 3-1 first-leg lead.Wenger's hope was that Arsenal would "dictate the tempo" from the beginning and impale Bayern through pace and ingenuity. Some hope. When the game kicked off, there was nothing in Bayern's demeanour to imply trepidation. With the excellent Michael Ballack orchestrating their forward moves, Felix Magath's side treated this game like any other they hoped or even expected to win. There was to be no siege, no grim holding on to what Bayern already had.At the halfway point, the Highbury congregation must have felt their hearts drop a rib or two. Dennis Bergkamp was trying to finagle his way into goalscoring positions without success. Reyes was subdued while Freddie Ljungberg scrapped but could find no clear path through Bayern's wily back four. Vieira grappled with Ballack but lost the fight.To use a boxing analogy, the Germans had already knocked Arsenal out cold in Munich. In the rematch they were sure they could win on points, at the very least. In victory, again, Bayern might have prompted the break-up of one of Wenger's finest creations. In truth, he has watched too often this season Arsenal submit to their biggest rivals. The talent remains but the conviction has drained. We saw the end of something great last night.

Andy In Singapore
March 10, 2005

I cannot understand that just because Senderos had a good game that some think our defensive problems are solved – this is what we thought last year with Kolo – it is too risky – we still need another Class CB and World Class Keeper minimum. If we hadn’t made 3 stupid errors in Munich, 1-0 would have been enough last night. However I do agree that Henry needs a partner that compliments his game, until now other than Berkamp none of the candidates have been up to it - but that’s been true for years (Kanu, Wiltord, Jeffers) – it is a testament to Henry that he has been such a prolific provider of goals (both scoring and assists) in such conditions, as Berkamp has never been consistent (brilliant on his day though he is). Another thing is that this is the season that had to happen at some point. For ages Wenger has been criticized for not giving youth a chance, to which he has always said that it was difficult to do so and maintain the high standards we are now used to. Look at the fantastic players to have come through this season – Clichy, Fab, Flamini, Senderos and maybe Quincy and VanP we will see – and at the same time we can still come 2nd in the league and possibly win the FA Cup. This is a fantastic achievement. I have always believed that whilst we would be able to give it a go in the CL we would only be able to make a serious assault on it once we are in AG (I cant get used to calling it Emirates) and have the funds to blend the young players (who of course will be more experienced by then) with some world class stars to replace the ageing Freddie, Bob, Dennis, and Paddy (I don’t want to think about replacing Henry – ever). Have faith – Arsenals day in Europe will come soon. Thanks for your time as I don’t post very often. FPTBAG (I won't say since ‘71 ‘cause last time Niall took the p*ss)

Philippe Senderos
March 10, 2005

Now here we have a player who is making his Champions League debut, has rarely featured in our first team, and has spent more time out through Injury than he has in training. Should he really be our best player tonight, in a big, crucial game such as this? The answer quite simply is no! With the likes of Henry, Bergkamp, Reyes, Ljungberg, Cole and Vieira all on the field you would have expected at least half of them to turn in professional and committed displays. But no! It was only Senderos who even looked like he wanted the ball for the first hour of the match. When everyone else stood still it was him making himself available and doing his best to help out where he could. He got up well for every header and put in some great challenges. One mistake in the ninety minutes was all that he made. It was good to see him have such a good game against quality opposition, as while his previous performances were also good his credentials were questioned due to the fact that these teams were lowly teams such as Sheffield United and Pompey. Tonight, he was immense and by far and away our best player, putting the experienced lads to shame.

Man of The Match – Philippe Senderos
March 10, 2005

Player Ratings--------------- Jens Lehmann - 7 - Made some good punches from corners, and made one great reaction save from a thunderbolt of a shot from Ballack. Ashley Cole - 6 - Allowed players to get to the by-line far too easily. Hardly featured going forward as Arsenal offered little in that area. Kolo Toure - 6.5 - Lets just say it was an improvement upon his first leg performance! He had one of two wobbles, but generally had an average game. Lauren - 6.5 - Got forward well, but also allowed people to get past him with a great deal of ease. Jose Reyes - 5 - My God did he have a poor game! What an absolute shocker he had! He never looked like he was in the game; his head was clearly off in the clouds. He wasn’t alert for the first twenty minutes, and even when he did look for the ball his first touch was poor and he failed to keep possession. His passing was average at best and he always had his back to goal. Whatever happened to the Reyes of mid August, who would pick the ball up and just run at defenders with no fear? Now he looks for a simple pass and nothing more. One of a few players who didn’t have the impact that they should have had. Patrick Vieira - 6 - In this game it was hard to see our midfield. Vieira did little to help this, and he was another who had a poor game. He didn’t hold the ball, up or play a simple ball; instead he continually lost out and allowed Munich to over run the midfield. Mathieu Flamini - 6.5 - Even Flamini, who has been the highlight of the last few weeks, had a largely ineffective game. He made fewer tackles than normal and was surprisingly run ragged by the Munich midfield. Freddie Ljungberg - 6 - He scrapped away for a while but seemed to give up midway through the second half. Thierry Henry - 6.5 - Well at least he made some runs! His passing wasn’t great, but he was the only attacking player to make continual runs looking for space. He got his reward when he got his goal. Dennis Bergkamp - 6 - He was disappointing today. Much was made of his return to the side, but he failed to deliver. The flicks weren’t quite coming off and he was caught in possession. Subs: Robert Pires - 6 - Made a few runs and was actually beating defenders. However, he wasn’t looking very sharp, and had to be fed the ball while under no pressure to do anything with it. Cesc Fabregas – 6 - Replaced Flamini as a more attacking option. However, he hit the Bayern brick wall and had little penetration. Robin Van Persie - 6 - Played as an out and out centre forward, but had little time to influence a game which was already slipping away.

Fred
March 10, 2005

Good one! (AC3 for the first 35 mins. appeared to be suffering a hangover from last nights celebrations)

Fred
March 10, 2005

1-0 to the Arsenal! We finally won a match when we didn't deserve it how ironic. So Lil'Senderos was our best player that sums up the performance perfectly! I feel sorry for Arsene he should have taken the money from Real for Patrick V we could have won nothing and finished third without him. It's out of AC Milan, Chelsea, Steven Gerrard or Lyon (This years early 90s Ajax) for me. So one or two more heartbreakers left and our season will be over. Here's hoping we get a glamour tie next year(Barca Real AC) before we go out. Thank God we are moving to a new stadium soon, we may need the boost.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 10, 2005

We may have lost the tie but at least we gained a cb! Very good allround performance by Senderos and it was a shame some of his more senior teamates could not match his composure. DB10 never performs when he goes looking for a war, he loses his composure and forgets to do the things he does best and the way our mf sets up we cannot afford to lose his creativity in tight games. AC3 for the first 35 mins. appeared to be suffering a hangover from last nights celebrations, he was dreadfull and heaped more pressure on an already overworked Senderos. Our two wide men were ineffective and given the weaknesses of both BM full backs it was criminal that they rarely took them on. Flamini deserved to stay on for his effort alone but he does not have the vision of Fabregas and the way Bayern were defending it needed a bit more craft to create an opening. I would still like to see Fabregas given a start in Bergkamps position and the league run in is an ideal time to give him one or two opportunities to see if it would work. I also agree with those calling for a change at rm, we need a better balance as neither of our right sided starters can go outside the lb, Eboue could be the answer at rb but we need a specialist rm ahead of him. Having seen most of the CL games the last couple of days the player I would most like to see as a partner to TH14 is Kaka, I think they would make an unstoppable pairing although I don't see how they would let him go.... unless perhaps they want their mf back to replace the departing Gattuso. Anyway, at least we went out with a win and all credit to Bayern for seeing through their gameplan, funnily enough I thought for the first 45 mins. they were better than they were in Munich.

Mee
March 10, 2005

I mentioned earlier than DB10 had by his standards a poor game. We need to keep a sense of perspective here. Some people are now advocating a swift retirement before the glory fades and he becomes like an old boxer whose taken one punch too many. A few weeks back he was playing some of the best football of his highbury career with Wenger seemingly ready to extend his contract for another season - talent like his doesn’t evaporate overnight.I think we should look more closely at RVPersie’s performances. He was touted as a better long-term bet than Arjen Robben and said to be one of Holland’s brightest prospects. I am beginning to think he was a panic buy to assuage the fans clamour for new talent. It feels reminiscent of the summer deals that brought Francis Jeffers to Arsenal and further back, John Hartson and Chris Kiwomya too.

old man of hoy
March 10, 2005

Following Chelsea and Barca was never going to be easy but tonight really was a case of after the Lord Mayor's Show. In the programme Le Boss said that we would need to play our fast tempo game to prevail, but we rarely got into our full stride. Yes Bayern defended very well and were not averse to the professional disruptive tackle, but our biggest impediment was the tendency of Vieira and Reyes to give the ball away too easily. Apart from a brief spell after half-time Jose never looked confident and it was a relief to see him put out of his misery when replaced by an obviously less than totally fit Bob. Paddy's drop in form is now very worrying - possibly even terminal. He was sluggish and dwelled on the ball too much, seemingly more intent on drawing a foul, rather than keeping the play moving smoothly. Too often these days he needs the extra touch before passing and against Bayern you simply do not have that luxury. He drifted out of the game for long spells, often leaving Flamini to do all the tackling and distribution. I could see little evidence of him as a motivating force, or as a tactician. An example was the way in which it took us about 15/20 minutes to get either Freddie or Dennis into the game by which time both were becoming frustrated - a captain needs to see things like this quickly and make changes to rectify it. It pains me greatly to even contemplate his demise but Le Boss should have taken Paddy off and put Cesc and Flamini together. Once the young prince came on we immediately had a player who looked as smooth and cultured as those from Munich. Our weight and variety of passing went up 100% and the square ball ratio started to go down. Suddenly Cole and Ralph began threatening. I totally agree about how well Senderos is playing -like the young Rio Ferdinand he still makes one concentration error per match but i am sure like Rio he will remove that blemish from his game. Well done Jens.

Richie
March 10, 2005

After Dennis was sent off the oher week and was going to be out of action for a few games I did say at least he will be nice and fresh for the BM game. Somebody rightly pointed out on this forum that he would rather have a Bergkamp that was in the groove as it were. And I suppose it kind of makes sense. Like an old vintage car you need to keep it ticking over and so maybe it's the same for Dennis. It did look as if he had been out for a few weeks, lacking sharpness and his passing was off. Hopefully he will be back in the groove on Sat if picked.

Nico
March 10, 2005

American, in the context of the excellence which Wenger has brought to the Club and expects of his teams year in year out, this is probably a transition season, and in transition seasons, people transit, or at least we're entitled to think of some coming in and others leaving. I don't think Van Persie will make it with us, but I may be wrong. Similarly, I'm not convinced by Reyes, brilliant though both may be. Dennis should go now while his name still smells of glory, Cygan and Freddie simply ain't good enough much as we wish to be loyal to them, whilst Paddy and Bobby may be climbing over the hill. We need to bring in new and experienced players for key positions to take the pressure off the rookies and give us a chance to win things next season. Flip-flopping? If you mean that people are finally losing patience after a lot of silent reflection, with guys who are not delivering as Wenger and the Club expect them to, then call it what you will. Here's the reality check in summary - we are out of the ecl, not likely to win the league, and face a few quite daunting hurdles to win our likeliest trophy, this year's FA Cup. The very suggestion that Henry should be included in those who should be spotlighted for potential sale is anathema to me. He's the best Arsenal player I have ever seen by a country mile. I'm sure that's not what you meant to say, or was it?

North Bank Mural
March 10, 2005

We had a go but ultimately were not good enough. Defended very well but the players bought in to improve us, JAR,DB were poor. BM closed down very quickly also, they are very well organised. Personally I think that JAR should be allowed to leave, it isn't working out, his distribution was rubbish. Cometh the hour etc. I don't think so. How can DB perform at such sublime levels and then turn one in like that? We must show the same defensive resolve against fat sam's kickers. If we do we will win, goals will come. Keep the faith, it took Manure 20 plus years to win the CL again remember.

Bored
March 10, 2005

I too thought Senderos was easily Arsenal's best player. How ironic that his performance suggests he will become an Arsenal star wheras Reyes' who was loudly touted as the next big thing looks like he has wont make it at Highbury. Before the match there was a lot of talk about how Arsenal were going to play at a high tempo and press them all over the park, but in the end it was Bayern who adopted those tactics to great effect. Very frustrating to watch as we coudn't get any sort of rhythm or supply to the strikers. Even after we scored when you'd think we'd have the momentum to keep attacking, Bayern kept us penned into our own half for what seemed like 10 minutes. Credit to Bayern for their tactical discipline, but I did wonder (yet again) why we seem unable to change tactics when our game plan doesn't work. Set pieces anyone?

Brett
March 10, 2005

SWP = Shaun Wright-Phillips of Man City, Son of Ian Wright (mainly). Takes about two minutes to type otherwise!

Richie
March 10, 2005

It was alluded to in an earlier post that we do ourslves no favours at all by not making the most of corners and getting the ball into the box at the earliest opportunity. Too many times a player gets to the by line and passes back or flaffs around with it when a simple cross into the box is needed. The quick passing and moving game is fantastic when it works but at this level we will get found out everytime. It wasn't that hard for BM to work out how to frustrate us because we only play one way. Not going to get too carried away with Senderos and certainly not going to compare him with TA6 just yet. But if he can be an ariel threat at corners and free kicks then fantastic. We can no longer ignore other avenues of scoring. Shooting too or lack of it is another weakness that needs to be addressed. BM are quite capable of going all the way. Hard working and do the basics well.

Brett
March 10, 2005

AmericanGooner - I am guilty of this flip-flopping as you call it, but if you take the assumption that the Champions League is a barometer of players abilities to perform at the top level, you can learn a lot. Chances are, if you are good enough for the Champions League, you are more than good enough in the Prem (except Liverpool), unless you're playing Manure & Chelscum.

US Martin
March 10, 2005

"...Arsenal will not win the European Cup without adding a new dimension to our team. We can't go around passing up the percentage game by not crossing into the box and not having anyone who is a threat from those positions and expect to beat the best sides in Europe. Milan, Bayern, Juve - they all cross the ball into the box. Its gone on long enough to not be rectified..." careful Niall, or you may be accused of being well, ME-ish...

Dave
March 10, 2005

I wish you would stp using bloody initials all the time. Who the hell is SWP???

Alex
March 10, 2005

well done, Arsenal. At least we beat the horrible bunch of arrogant twats. I did not like the referee at all. He gave bayern all the protection he could...especially in stoppage timewhen he blew to give them two soft free-kicks. We lost it in Munich. Never again must Arsene let the team perform like that. The winner of the night: Senderos, the new Tony Adams. Good to see the car thieves through, too. Good luck to them and the show ponies. Nice to see Man U out. I hope Bayern draw an Italian side. They will know how to do the job. Knowing their luck they will probably draw Eindhoven

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

Some of us have the tendency to judge players solely on their most recent game. Seems like some of the same people that were clamoring to 'start van Persie' after the Soton game are the same clamoring to sell him now. I've read the same flip flopping regarding Bergkamp. Give him another year in a game he does well and don't renew his contract after games such as this. Henry is the only one immune but only the daftest (is that the word you all use?) of fans would say sell arguably the best striker on the planet. Put things in their proper perspective. Don't expect a 19 year old defender to defend like this every game as he's still learning his craft. Don't expect a 19 year old Dutch striker to play like he did against Sheff Utd against the likes of Chelsea. Some of the flip flopping seems a bit over the top.

Niall
March 10, 2005

American..I am glad you usually disagree, cos no offence..ur usually wrong. Mentality is a red herring - always has been. We haven't been quite astute enough at the top level and that could change with a subtle addition to out attacking attitute coupled with the fact our defence hasn't really been up to the job since theyear we beat Leverkusen 4-1 (which actually was a turning point cos I think we beat Juve that year as well - might be wrong - and other sides wised up to coming to Highbury). You can make excuses all night but at the end of the day, to win this competion you have to be able to handle more pressure than pure mentality and thats the problem. Often we son't have the answers and tonight again we didn't look like having the answers bar one moment of quality from henry - interesting from a long ball - not our usual method.

Nico
March 10, 2005

DaveM and others, very sensible points. Firstly, the non-tackling one (if you mean Gilberto) was there as cb cover, as explained by Wenger prior to the match. But we didn't need him because, as everyone is saying on here, we have a big star in the making in Senderos. I hesitate nowadays before bigging up a rookie but in Clichy, Fabregas, Flamini, Quincy and Senderos, we have five outstanding young prospects. Senderos is a calm, leader type, a mature head on young shoulders, who gives everyone around him confidence, definitely captain material. You are right that a great cb can make a keeper look more steady, and Lehmann was excellent tonight. In the first half, the defense seemed to clear an awful lot of corners quite effectively, though from the North stand it wasn't possible to pick out who was chiefly responsible but I wouldn't mind betting it was the youngster. What a talent, and I'm really looking forward to Bolton now. He has jumped to the head olf the queue in the cb roster, which now looks like 1. Sol, 2. Senderos, 3. Kolo, 4. Cygan, and I'd never have predicted that earlier in the season. What we now need is a long term replacement for....Campbell, which neiither Kolo nor Pascal, bless his cotton socks, are, sadly. Dare I say, this could wait another season? Or is that too risky? Up front we have a major problem in the support-for-Henry department, with lots of square pegs in round holes and an ageing Dennis. That's why Wenger says we need a striker, but Owen is surely not the answer, mature and sensible though he may be. What about Van Divealot? Yes, seriously! He used to be likened to Bergkamp years ago, I seem to remember, even once by Wenger himself, but can he pass, or create chances for others? Anyway, there could probably not be a deal, however much Wenger may rate him, and assuming we can all get over our dislike of the bleeder. Or Ronaldo from RM, perhaps. Or Etoo from Barca? We need a big name, someone who will take some of Henry's load and who will preferably work the right side of the field (Wenger dreamed of Anelka for this position once upon a time!). Is Torres the one? Seems too green and unproven to me. As for other positions, we need a young keeper like Hildebrand, and we must try hard to keep Cole as I don't think Clichy is ready to take full responsibility, whilst Eboue needs to come through gently in place of Ralph. As for midfield, I hate to say it, but central midfield needs a new senior driving force as Paddy ain't doing what he used to for us any more. Fine to keep Flamini, Fabregas and Gilberto, but we need a top notch number 1 there, if a younger Ballack can be found. I keep hearing about Essien but I've never seen him; is he the one, maybe? For the wide positions, Freddie must go; we will not win the Champions Cup with him in a starting position - very mediocre tonight. Is SWP the answer? Not at £20 or £25m, surely, and not tried and tested at top level. Joaquin, another untried and tested, seems chelscum-bound. I'm sure Wenger knows enough others, though. Pires is getting on and there should be a longterm replacement for him also. Reyes? I don't think so as somehow I don't think he'll stay with us, but if he does, maybe he's the man. Maybe Bentley can be one of the wide men in due course, though we'd need to have more pace on the opposite side. Quincy? Could he work one of the wings? Or is he a striker pure and simple? Anyway, here are my transfer views in summary, IN: a new number 1, a new cb to replace Campbell, a top-notch central midfield driving force, a top-notch striker with proven European level experience and at least one wide midfielder. OUT: Dennis, Cygan, Van Persie, Reyes, Ljungberg, Edu and possibly Vieira, if he sees the writing on the wall.

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

I'm not giving up hope on Reyes. Lets see the rest of the season through. One thing is evident though and that is Wenger bought him as a partner for Henry and as it stands now Dennis is his primary partner. If Reyes stays is his long term position wing? If so, do we groom van Persie, Quincy or Lupoli to be Henry's partner or buy? Or do we still try to make him Henry's partner? **** James Copenhagen put things in perspective. Look at the youth that was out there for us? How many sides can play with that many inexperienced players and do as well. Try playing Richardson, Eagles and a couple others in Man Yoo's first team and see how they flop over. Even Chelesa's 2nd choice internationals who barely get a run out (Geremi, Parker, etc.) wouldn't do as well.

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

Regarding Reyes, would he seem like he doesn't want to be here if he kept up his early season form? ***** We backed ourselves into a corner. It was always going to be tough and anything could have happened and had we gotten a late goal we'd have gone through playing below par. We won against an organized BM side and that is something to take from the game. **** I hope we are not expecting Senderos to have this kind of game all the time. He's still learning and with his history, possibly injury prone. The question is do we still buy a CB in the summer?

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

Niall, wow! Agree with you for a change...joking buddy...will add to your statement about us not winning till we add a new dimension. While I agree with you about your suggestions (new winger, etc.) I still think we will win nothing if our attitude toward the compeition doesn't change. We seem a different side mentally. And until that changes any new players, whether they be SWP or whomever may adopt that low esteem attitude that seems pervasive on Euro nights all too often in our side. Man Yoo to their credit..and I HATE giving them any credit, looked better in terms of attitude and bottle while not scoring any goals in the 2 legs than us who scored 2. It shames me to say that and admit it. And for me it starts with the captain, who sets the tone. Not saying Vieira isn't great, but he's not going to lead us to a CL title. Sports are littered with great players who just lacked that extra 'oomph' as we say in the states to nick the biggest prize. For the few Americans or forumites that follow American sports I give you Charles Barkley, Dan Marino and Chris Webber.

Mee
March 10, 2005

There weren’t many positives to emerge from the game, but Senderos gave an almost fautless performance. Fortunately his one mistake was cleared up by Lehmann. I think fatigue set in about that time, he had to cover so many times for Cole, who had the sort of game that made you wonder at his current market valuation. I was surprised that Reyes remained on after half-time and an imminent return to Spain I think would be best for both parties. DB10 had one of those games that remind you he is mortal after all. In truth Bayern never allowed us to establish any sort of rhythm, and some of their passing, movement and technique suggests that we may have to re-evaluate the german stereotype. The damage had been done in the first leg, so the disappointment has drip-fed into the system since that game. We now have to take that defensive display to Bolton on saturday.

Cannon Balls
March 10, 2005

Disappointing result we were far too cautious in the first half and never really pressed forward,when we did Henry forced Kahn to pull off a great save with his feet. Had that gone in minutes before the interval we would have gone on and won. Fantastic goal from Henry to shut up his critics; and unlike the drunken jock we were not beaten at home. Senderos and Flamini were outstanding taking account of their ages and the caliber of opponent they were faced with. Arsene again though leaving the subs late and for me taking off Flamini made no sense either, Dennis or Freddie were more likely candidates for that dubious accolade on the night. No doubt though we need to reinforce during the summer and with Reyes off to Real Madrid, find a partner for Henry, we can't keep relying on DB10 every season. Anyway the seasons not over yet, we will have to see what we can do domestically, and beating Bolton on Saturday lunchtime seems like a good place as any to start!.

Niall
March 10, 2005

DaveM - just read your posts and although I agree with you that when he isn't delivering goals Ljungberg can look poor I find your singling him out distasteful. Ljungberg in the past has been one of our best performers in Europe - just take a look back through our European Cup history and see his contribution mate - to deserve a little more respect than you give him on an almost daily basis. In the first half, Ljungberg was ignored as we again tried to many pinpoint passes through a well marshalled defence. Second half he came infield more, but I didn't see any improvement when he was taken off down the right. he had a poor game but wasn't alone. Dennis was awful all night. His passing was off and we were lucky he didn't concede a pen in the first half with a wild lunge. His time is up at the highest level I'm afraid. Reyes was also pish poor. he may become a great but if it is to be at Arsenal it better be soon cos he was - rubbish tonight. On the bright side, as all have said, Senderos was fantastic and needs to stay in the team now. Anticipation, strength, heading abillity - he had it all tonight and proved he could - yes could - be the next Adams. Well done Phillip cos Pizzaro and Guerreo were a handful. All in all, it comes down to writing off - like every year - another pish poor Champions League effort. Unlike last year (and indeed 2001 was it when I thought we had out best chance with that rock of a defence but Carew did us) I think we have been poor throughout the competition this year. Poor in the group stage and abysmal in Munich. Yes we salvaged some pride tonight but overall the best side did win this year and there are no complaints from me about the result of the tie. I have to go back to my main feeling and I see it echoed on Sky tonight. Arsenal will not win the European Cup without adding a new dimension to our team. We can't go around passing up the percentage game by not crossing into the box and not having anyone who is a threat from those positions and expect to beat the best sides in Europe. Milan, Bayern, Juve - they all cross the ball into the box. Its gone on long enough to not be rectified this pre-season coming. Yes Arsene, get the defence sorted out. Senderos has shown to be quality, Campbell if fit but get one more in. Improve upon lauren and Lehmann and that's a start. Central midfield we are fine. We have talent there. Pires is going backwards and Reyes well - you tell me. Pires - play him left for the rest of the season and forget about Jose imo. Get a right midfielder who can beat a man and cross and give us an alternative to the lethal left. With Henry we will always have a chance. With a decent all round striker, the loss of Bergkamp can be nullified..he is irreplaceable like for like. All in all though, in fairness - it is bloody hard. Madrid and Barca out shows that this competition is QUALITY. Don't hamper us any longer by being too easy to handle at home. And also cut out the individual errors at the back which have cost us this tie. The better side won in the end, but if we'd been up to it in Germany it might have been a different story. Annoyed, but this year not gutted cos I wasn't sucked in for a change. We aren't good enough......YET ;)

James - Copenhagen
March 10, 2005

Very proud of the lads tonight, we blooded a new team; Flamini, Reyes, Senderos and Cesc (takes no sh*t from Ballack)- all of them will one day win CL medals, I hope it is with Arsenal. We lost the tie in the first four minutes in München.

Gunner Gun U Down
March 10, 2005

guys check this 9 year old out,apparently all da top clubs are after him and im not surprised whywww.graeme.myby.co.uk/jean_carlos.wmv

Richie
March 10, 2005

No Spanish teams in the q/f. There is just too much expectancy on Henry to deliver the goods, more so this season. He really wants to make this club successful but he needs some help. Reyes for me is a fine player but is too similar to Henry I think. We need an unfussy player to compliment Henry in the mould of Gudjohnsson (sic) from Chelsea. Someone of that ilk who can pick up the pieces and scraps and score some tap ins and even head the ball. Interesting to note we scored from a long ball. First time for ages.

Genève Gooner
March 10, 2005

Tom, we are London's top club. One season makes no difference in the long run. I think Reyes will go. He made a great tackle tonight but the whole situation had come from him not making a hard tackle further up the pitch. Senderos looks the biz. He always looked it here but the level is different. His former team has gone bust and now plays in the Swiss 3rd division. Guess it depends whether you were at the game or watching on TV but my TV seemed quite quiet toninght. Was that London or Munich?

Gunner Gun U Down
March 10, 2005

Yeh very true RICH. lets hope to see what wenger does in the transfer market, prob will be the most interesting summer. Will like too players wid width and aggression. Season is prob over for us, but otimistic that atleast give 100% in the cup and finish 2nd. I also noticed how everyone laid there expectation on henry in 2nights game, maybe owen will get that burden off him.

Rich
March 10, 2005

Very frustrating evening for Arsenal, the only team to go out having won the return leg. Senderos and Flamini were superb tonight. I'm a big fan of Senderos, he's very much in the Adams, Terry type mould. Have to agree that Bayern are a good team but not a great team and we could have beaten them on our top form. They played very well tonight, add to that the goals we gifted them away and the amazing goal we had to pull out of the hat to even register at home and they are a very tough opponent. The wings of our team need to change, bring in SWP or players with pace AND the ability to beat their man. I've no doubt that Reyes is quality and Wenger hasn't made a huge gaff buying him (you only have to look at early season form for that) but something is not right with him, homesickness? We expect a lot from some young players to immediatly adapt etc to a new country, could it be that Reyes simply doesn't like living here? There's no doubt it would severly affect his football. One last gripe/annoyance, how did all the 'big' teams manage to draw each other, Barca v Chelski, Us v Bayern, Real v Juve and Man U v AC. On paper probably the 8 best teams left in before the draw. It's just frustrating when you see Liverpool win 6-2 against Leverkuson!

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

Reyes will go only if he requests it. Wenger won't do it. He sticks by his big money signings (Wiltord for example, by 32 he was on the decline). ***** This may seem like its an excuse for him but did the suspension do more harm than good for Bergkamp? He was in form before hand and had he kept playing perhaps we'd have seen a different DB10? I still want him for another year. Freddie has had his good nights, this just wasn't one of them unfortunately. **** Have we seen Senderos move up in the CB pecking order to 3rd choice? DaveM, he captained every junior side he was on in Switzerland. He is a natural leader. I think he's a future captain. **** Finally Steve Martin, totally agree about ignoring certain person(s) on here. I don't mind constructive criticism of the club or myself for that matter but destructive statements that undermine supporter morale I won't be a party to.

Gunner Gun U Down
March 10, 2005

Very dissapointed, but is it me or is it every single time arsenal bow out that arsene wenger says maybe next season. Im a true arsenal fan and big arsene wenger fan, but am i right to say that i dont think europe will ever be done under wenger? again disspointed at the game, bayern looked solid all over, and senderos was arsenal best player and the youngest one there. We really have been wrecked by injuries, and maybe if we didnt we would have lost to a world class team like juve. Think its time for ljungberg and reyes to leave, and we should bring in wingers like SWP and Van Da Vaart, who can take players on and supply crosses, and a striker who is a predator with both his feet and his head. The emergence of senderos has eased the CB problem i think, but would like too see a RB like Sagnol or CB Kuffour, and a golakeepr like cudicini

Brett
March 10, 2005

One thing in common for all the CL 1/4 finalists - good solid defence. We do not belong in that group yet. Another CB & goalie will do the trick. Kolo, as much as I still admire him for his determination and spirit, is a shadow of his performances last season. Hacked the ball too much today for my liking. I think he would make a better RB than Lauren and a backup for CB. Some good thoughts about SWP. Fabregas will start more regularly next season.

Richie
March 10, 2005

Real Madrid are out. Thought Wenger bottled it when it came to the substitutions. Half time he should have made the changes. Reyes and Ljunberg off, Pires and Quincy on. Quincy would have run at the BM defence and who knows what may have happened? Was not inspired when VP came on. Plus points are Senderos, Flamini and even Lehmann had a decent game.

DaveM
March 10, 2005

The other thing people have said about Senderos since he joined us is that he's a natural leader (not something I'd say about any of the other 3 CBs I mentioned). His presence in the side is likely to make the whole back-four play better as a unit.

DaveM
March 10, 2005

In a 4-4-2 if your wide midfielders have no influence on the game then your strikers will struggle too, unless they're very strong. Owen wouldn't have made any difference tonight. Cesc from the start or SWP might have done. Wenger likes Cygan (and in fairness he's had a reasonable season), Campbell is first choice, Senderos is brilliant (particularly in the air) and Toure is certainly not a write=off. I don't think Wenger will buy a CB. If the CBs are good, the keeper will tend to look better to. I guess we'll see what happens between now and the end of the season. Bolton are a big test for CBs and keeper.

Richie
March 10, 2005

Agreed Senderos had a solid game and can only do his confidence good. Ljunberg v disappointing. I would be very surprised if Reyes is here next season. It just isn't working out for him one way or another and perhaps it's better for all concerned that Wenger calls time on his brief Arsenal career. Have mixed feelings about Dennis as to whether he stays or retires. Super service to the club but at top European level I think it's beyond him now. We have not been convincing in Europe this season even in the league stage we made hard work of it. Would have been great to get through but realistically I don't think we would have progressed much further.

tom
March 10, 2005

Haven't seen the game so can't crticise anyone but Nutty on Sky Sports News said that BM deserved to go through and you won't find many more committed Gooners than him, so fair play to them. Just gotta take it on the chin and hope that being "jocked off" our ride as London's top club is a one season wonder. Always thought we'd be the first London side to win the European Cup, let's face it we've had enough chances. But I fear the worst the way Chelski are playing. We MUST go to Bolton and get a result to keep our season alive - to have it finished by Fat Sam really would be a sickener. C'MON ARSENAL.

Brazil 70
March 10, 2005

Apart from Henry's goal out of nothing we did not create anything.That really is worrying.Arsene's decision making & tactics added nothing tonight .DB10 was pants & should have come off.Too many players had no impact ,PV4,Reyes (is he really our most researched & expensive signing?) & FL.Senderos was brilliant.Our right hand side is so ineffective.To add to the injury,Liverpool crushed their german opposition home & away.I will stop now as it is all getting a bit negative.

Yorkshire
March 10, 2005

The better team went through. Bayern must be one of the most hard working sides in europe. Closed us down all over the pitch. Our play was sluggish and we did not control or dominate. Just annoying why we don't show more urgency in the last 5 minutes. Just get the ball in the box and hope for luck knock down. We even tries to play the ball out of our own box in injury time!!?? TBH milan / Madrid would have mullard us if we had gone through.

Brett
March 10, 2005

Unlucky Arsenal, nearly there. Too much damage done in the first 135 minutes. We just didn't have enough creativity outside the area, and the the impact I hoped that Bergkamp would have simply didn't materialise whatsoever. Having said that I was SOOOOOO impressed by Senderos today. Easily our best player of the night, I wouldn't be surprised if he saw more of the ball than the rest of the team put together. As far as I am concerned, Senderos is now our first choice centre-back alongside Campbell. Still proud to be a gooner, nice to see a few youngsters tonite, and hopefully things will be better next season. Still need a goalie & CB. I can see why Wenger is saying another striker. Looking forward to wiping the smile off that pillock in Bolton.

goonerguru
March 10, 2005

Not to gutted with the result because I didn't really think we would get through but I am disapointed with the performance,we were second best in most departments tonight,hate to say it but its true,we were never in control of the game,they hasseled and closed us down at every opportunity and you have to give them credit for that.Suprised that Flammini went off thought it should have been Reyes and Ljungberg or even DB10,all of them had poor games,no consolation I know but the defence played well with Senderos being the man of the match and Lehmann when called upon played very well in deed.Overall about the right result,on the play we didn't deserve to go through but just about deserved the win,we need to get 3 quality midfielders every team is packing midfield now and we are getting over run in that area of the game,that was just like watching Chelsea.

US Martin
March 10, 2005

Proud to be a Gooner! F**k all the others...

DaveM
March 10, 2005

Well, better than usual. There was some hint of fight, and some of our players played well. Senderos was obviously outstanding. He and Toure look a good partnership, and Senderos may well have solved our centre-back problem (and perhaps our goal-keeping one too - we'll see against Bolton). Flamini was superb - it was a mistake to take him off. Vieira had a good game, and Henry's goal was brilliant. There were horrifically bad performances from Ljungberg (again - what a surprise), Bergkamp, and Reyes (who doesn't look like he wants to be here). We have a real problem with our wide midfielders - they don't perform against well organised, strong, sides. Nonetheless, if we can get Wright-Phillips, or play Cesc wide right (basically anything except Freddie), and sort out wide left then I actually think we'll do very well next season. Freddie really really has to go. For me he, Bergkamp and Pires, are associated with European failure. I can't see Senderos, Cesc and Flamini failing as often (or Quincy, or Clichy, or Ryan Smith). I was a bit concerned to see the non-tackling one back on the bench, given Flamini's superb form. I wonder what Wenger will do against Bolton? I'll be surprised if we win if Freddie starts the game.

Steve Martin
March 10, 2005

323 minutes without conceeding a goal

IndianGooner(Manoj)
March 10, 2005

Its 3:30 in the morning, where I live. I've watched all our CL and late games this season, almost.....The Lads did well tonight, but we need to buy. It is still an amazing feat that we had a 21 yr old CF, A 20 and 24 yr old Cb combo, and a 17 yr old Mf who had the BALLS to look Ballack in the face and tell him off. ***********Sometimes I wish if one of the young lads/ just been brought on, should just kick the opponents best player, a nice hard knock on the Achilees or the shin.***********We'll see Europe after AG.******The Guys showed lots of spirit and doggedness in the second half and PS 20 was superb, his heading out balls reminded me of TA so much, same full blooded style, much better than SC23 atleast at that**************VVVPTBAG!!!!!!!!Lets take that frustration out on that Friggin walrus!! Go WIN THE FA CUP.

Richie
March 10, 2005

That's that up our arses then. Just not good enough I am afraid. Much better showing in the second half but have to give some credit to BM. Never let us settle especially the first half. If I was being critical, then Reyes should have come off at half time and maybe should have gambled with Quincy at some point. Another European dream up in smoke.

Richie
March 10, 2005

Was nearly right. Reyes and Flamini off. Pires and Fabregas on. Not quite sure why Flamini has come off though. 1-0 Henry.

Richie
March 10, 2005

Would take Reyes and Ljunberg off and get Pires and Quincy on.

goonerguru
March 10, 2005

**** me they are all over us like a rash,I suppose it is a reflection of how well we are playing but Senderos is our best player he seems to attract the ball like a magnet,Flammini also having a good game but again its all in our own half.We need to change something in the second half but not sure what,we need to remind BM that we are still on the pitch and see how they deal with it.Keep the faith!!!!!

Gooner7
March 10, 2005

Toothless display .... ring on the changes at halftime please, DB10 cannot manage the flow for us tonight ... we need speed and more attacking options ... Quincy Qunicy Qunicy ...........

Brazil 70
March 10, 2005

Half time & I am worried .Wenger really needs to have an impact.It feels like Bayern are the team going to score 2 & playing at home.Wake up Arsenal & have a real go.Senderos & Flamini putting the rest to shame.

Richie
March 10, 2005

We have woken up in the last 5 mins of half but AW needs to give the half time talk of his life. Let's be having you!

North Bank Mural
March 10, 2005

defending well but not creating. andy gray is irritating me.library quite vociferous.

MEA
March 10, 2005

Loads of time Richie!

Richie
March 10, 2005

Not got going at all. Not tested the keeper or even had a chance to speak of. BM are bossing the game. It can only get better, can't it?

Alex
March 10, 2005

The match is on in Germany on SAT1 and on pay-tv Premiere where you can even switch to English commentary. Premiere is great. It is only 25 Euros a month for the 2 sports channels and you can choose the Champions League match you want to watch and get plenty of live Premier League and Bundesliga. Brilliant. A MUST for exiles.

Alex
March 10, 2005

Bayern will be without Makaay AND without Frings. But they will play two strikers, Pizarro and Guerrero, both are Peruvians.Deissler will play on the left wing. Magath does not intend to defend...he wants to score first. I hope the North Bank do their job.

Fred
March 10, 2005

You are all mirroring Arsene Wenger, see a problem and ignore it! I'll just say I told you so now then!

Steve Martin
March 10, 2005

Gilbertos back, now see us end the season in style, It may not be in the Champs League, but the Prem and FA Cup, watch out...

Steve Martin
March 10, 2005

Why bother with the likes of Fred, just ignore him, he'll go away, to bore another Arsenal web site...

Fred
March 10, 2005

Yay!!!!!! you know what I'm really happy we just became the third best team in the third /fourth best league in Europe and lost home and away to our best friends from the north! Plus all the players are really happy at the club (COLE, PAT , EDU, PIRES, REYES, LEHMANN)Our defence is AS good Sheffield UTD's and let's not even talk about Champions League performance in the away leg!! hmmm a lot to smile about mate this season! Fools

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

Fred, I guarantee you were saying the same thing before we went to play Inter Milan, weren't you? **** I'm soooooo nervous and will be going to the pub soon. Yesterday the Chelsea fans were sooo obnoxious. More Chelsea fans than I've ever seen. Good seeing the Man Yoo fans quiet. One guy cheered when Milan scored and I smiled and showed him my key chain (it has an Arsenal emblem on it) and we had a laugh. Double edged sword watching a game with your rivals.

North Bank Mural
March 10, 2005

"Fred - It's time for your prozac".

Fred
March 10, 2005

Sorry but after the high of last season this season has been full of a disapointments! Sorry mate that's the way I feel, you feel otherwise good for you! don't agree with me speak to Freddie he's a member of the team! The spirit has gone as well as Campbell & gilberto two very important players! we only got to the quarters with our strongest team fit last season so why with two little boys in defence should we do any better this year! we will do better next year!

North Bank Mural
March 10, 2005

Well if they lose at least you will be happy Fred. What do you do for an encore, get paid for giving lessons in misery?

Daz
March 10, 2005

My old man said call yourself Fred and make a totally negative posting before a massive game and I said E*G off E*Gs you're a E*G. You're no Arsenal fan 'cos nobody would have been disappointed by even the faintest of lifelines so here's a tip: go E*G yourself.

Bored
March 10, 2005

Thats the spirit Fred. Just be thankful you are not a fan of a less succesful club (cough) as you'd probably shoot yourself.

Fred
March 10, 2005

It seems the Toure goal has given us false hope and that's why wish he never scored it! Forget about tonight we are not going through and that's about that! Maybe next year I saw AC Milan I saw Chelsea and I saw Man U we aint ready yet! with Campbell and Gilberto fit maybe but with Toure and Senderos in defence Ha! Nooo chance I doubt well even draw today! stop looking through rose tinted glasses our season ended in Munich! So what's left the FA cup. even if we beat Bolton we'll probably lose to Man U or even worse Spurs! we need our worse season under Arsene to end so he and the club can regroup!We'll do better next year!

Bored
March 10, 2005

Kenny Sansom ate all the pies....

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

Regarding Chelsea, did Mourinho go on about the referee, etc. in the first game as a psychological ploy to motivate his club? A pundit here says he thinks Mourinho took the focus off his club and on to himself so they wouldn't feel the pressure. Any thoughts? **** But Decaf, those vets were 'young blood' at some point weren't they?

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

BM's mindset will be "we only need to score once". If they can nick it in the first half I think they feel they will kill off the game. I have a feeling they don't think much of our mental toughness. **** GoonerForever, I give you Inter 5-1 and Roma 3-1 as less than adequate counter balance. But more often than not, he hasn't shown up to the extent we'd have liked.

AmericanGooner
March 10, 2005

OMOH, if Fergie is judging his team in terms of Europe then they are in decline. Remember they would also go on about the 7 (or was it 8?) consecutive quarter finals in the CL? Its been at least 2 years on the trot that they have not been in it. Also finishing 3rd, 2 of the last 3 years in the PL and this season will be the first time they will go 2 years without a title. Do you or others think that Man Yoo will have a slow decline ala the Roman Empire or like Liverpool go into a rapid decline? **** Bubblechris, I concur with the last part of your post. I think we need to face Man Yoo for our self respect and I hope its the FA cup final (and the scum in the semis). And we also need to beat Chelsea at the Bridge to show them that title or no, we're still the top club in London. ****

bernie
March 10, 2005

Ive got a feeling in my waterworks its going to be 4-1 to us.I didnt see anything special of BM in the first leg.COME ON ARSENAL

Eskimo
March 10, 2005

M17 - why are there 11 players on that list, strange! Are you sure Lupoli was there, I didn't think his talents were that well known.

Mee
March 10, 2005

Does anybody feel as I do, a real sense of foreboding whenever I hear that Champions League music. We’ve suffered too many disappointments in the past. Maybe tonight will be different. At least we know the music well enough, the last time Spurs were hearing any sort of european theme, the Dave Clark five were still at school.

Bristol Gooner
March 10, 2005

I'm thinking (or at least hoping) that that 'keeper quote from Wenger was simply a way of keeping the confidence up of the keepers we've currently got. I imagine a new keeper will arrive in the summer to fight for the number 1 jersey with whoevers left, a fight that should last about 10 seconds! Here's hoping the team do us proud tonight and at least give it their all, I'm not confident about the result as I can't see us keeping a clean sheet but I'm sure it won't be from lack of trying.

North Bank Mural
March 10, 2005

EEG, the Henry thing really pisses me off because it is simply untrue, like one of those urban myths that have no substance but get constantly repeated. Whenever I hear it now I take a deep breath and walk away, had too many arguments over it!

Exiled_In_Colorado_Gooner
March 10, 2005

Well last night we saw the advantage of having a top class goalkeeper in you team when playing at the highest level. Without Petr Czech in goal for them, the Chavs would be out, but thanks to him, and a dodgy corner they are still on course for the Champions League/Premier League double. We'll be okay as well though, as Mnsr Wenger has said that we don't need a new keeper in the summer - you must be 'aving a larf Arsene!

North Bank Mural
March 10, 2005

You can't have be the real J.Terry because he can't put a sentence together. Anyway shouldn't you be out checking the latest Burberry shellsuit collection? I started the Manure ko discussion, heard the fact qouted on the radio. Sorry if it was inaccurate but at least it wound up the sad Manc surfing an Arsenal site. Chilled about tonight as we are underdogs, let's hope we produce because we all know the type of headlines we will have to tolerate tomorrow. If it doesn't go our way, watch out for the "sack AW" posters. Come on Arsenal, please.....

East End Gooner
March 10, 2005

Henry became a striker only 5 years ago and he is the third highest scorer in the history of the champions league with some big, big name strikers behind him. Given Arsenal are seen to be underperformers in the competition, that makes his personal record all the better. To suggest he doesn't perform in Europe or is some kind of "flat-track bully" as I heard from an idiot last night is just ill-informed nonsense born of too much media and not enough actually watching football. All those going tonight it is your duty to be loud and intimidating. Failure to create the right atmosphere should lead to the stripping of season tickets.

N10
TV?
March 10, 2005

Which German TV channel is showing the match?(Boring but necessary post, sorry!)

Bristol Gooner
March 10, 2005

Yes because it was all plain sailing for you last night wasn't it?

James - Copenhagen
March 10, 2005

Is Edu fit?

John Terry of the Champions
March 10, 2005

Anybody know the odds on bayern being 3-0 up in 20 minutes ? Its going to be embarrassing tonight for arsenal.I also bet that you will all be leaving the grond by half time or switching your TVs off.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 10, 2005

david.d - I would if I could be sure both Pires and Reyes looked up for the battle, hopefully AW makes the right call either way. We need to pin their full backs into the corners and move their cb's away from the middle to open up space for Henry and Bergkamp. I also don't think we need to go gung ho from the start, 1-0 by halftime would do me fine and build from there.

Gooner in Munich
March 10, 2005

Cannon Balls, I have to put up with the jibes from Bayern fans and respond when they accuse Henry of lacking bottle but appreciate the fact he's a world class striker. You introduced Manure into the equation. I'll take Eric Cantona as an example. His contribution to Manure on the domestic scene cannot be questioned but his failure to have any sifnificant impact in Europe means he'll never be classed up there with Charlton or Best. My question refers to Henry's so called "lack of bottle" in the big games not to his overall achievements. I hope he proves the Bayern fans wrong tonight.

GoonerForever
March 10, 2005

What about Gilberto? I think he is as good as Vieira in that terms of screening the defence. This season, especially, has shown that he was one of our unsung heroes last year and wouldn't disappear in a game without making a tackle as petit was often guilty of.

Cannon Balls
March 10, 2005

Munich, ja, it is about opinions, but yours seem rather 'vorgewahlt' in their aspersions. United have just played 180 minutes of football against AC Milan, did Rooney bottle it or Giggs, Horseshite ? ; or were the defenders too good on the nights for them. Henry should be judged over his whole career not matchs picked out ad hoc to suit your premise. The story is not complete yet..

GoonerForever
March 10, 2005

I would go with Reyes on the left due to the fact he is fresh after missing last couple of games with Ljungbergs enthusiasm on the right. Pires, the great player he is, didn't look interested in the first leg, whereas at least Ljungberg will fight for the cause. Not sure between Flamini and Cesc but I'm hoping Edu passes fit as I think we need his experience.

Alex
March 10, 2005

The only midfielder we have who can screen the defence is Vieira. He excelled in this when Petit played along side him.However, when Petit left he was not replaced and Paddy had to screen the defence and be the playmaker. Rather much, I would say. But Arsene is stubborn and never paired his aces off with adequate partners. Campbell plus TerryViera plus Davids/Gattuso, Henri plus Adriano etc.

Bristol Gooner
March 10, 2005

Munich, if it wasn't for a combination of Henchoz's arm and Steve Dunn's eyesight Henry would've scored one of the fastest FA Cup goals in history in that game.

North Bank
March 10, 2005

Gunners, do not be outsung on your home pitch by the Bayernsas happened last time the two sides met. Have some pride.

Gooner in Munich
March 10, 2005

Cannon Balls, football is all about opinions and people will debate this one until Henry wins the European Cup. My question...Is Thierry a bottler? Remember his failure to convert chances against Liverpool in the 2001 F.A. Cup Final and without a goal in any of his three Cup Finals; no mark made in the UEFA Cup Final of 2000; anonymous against Senegal and then sent off against Uruguay in the 2002 World Cup; indifferent performances on big nights against Valencia and Deportivo La Coruna in the Champions League and out of sorts in a game against Chelski and in John Terry's pocket before coming off with a back injury. He has much to prove in tonight's game and let's hope he's successful and picks up a brace.

Bristol Gooner
March 10, 2005

With Bergkamp playing tonight I can't see Wenger dropping Ljungberg so for me it depends on the fitness of Pires for who starts between him and Reyes. As for Flamini or Fabregas that's a toughie, I would opt for the Frenchman purely for the extra bite I think we'll need, I think Fabregas might've had more of a shout had Bergkamp not been playing. The first 20 minutes is key for me, although an early goal would be good the clean sheet is vital, hope the boss has been showing the team a few tapes of the Anfield '89 game.

Cannon Balls
March 10, 2005

With the away goal rule coming int play we saw last night when Chelsea were hannging on then Terry scored anything can happen. An early goal for us and the situaton becomes different. Munich where do you get your facts from?. Henry is the 3rd top scorer in CL history.

david.d
March 10, 2005

parkerknoll - so you would omit freddie altogether?

Gooner in Munich
March 10, 2005

Let's face it lads! Only an out and out optimist would bet on us to reach the last eight of the Champions League. We must score at least twice tonight but that will be very difficult when you look at Bayern's recent defensive record. You must also consider the fact that Henry's performances in the Champions League have been anything but inspiring. Wenger has no option but to push forward but that will leave us exposed at the back, a situation which Bayern are more than capable of exploiting. AS I see it and I hope I'm wrong Bayern will move on to the last eight.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 10, 2005

david.d - you could make a case for playing them both with Fabregas on the right. My guess is AW will go with the tried and trusted FL8 and RP7 on the flanks and Vieira and Flamini in the centre to give DB10 a solid base to work from. I personally like Reyes on the left and Pires on the right to get at their full backs but with them both being in and out of late it may be a gamble to far. The problem with predicting tonights outcome is an early goal for them and you could see us capitulating by another 3 goals, an early one for us and anything could happen a la San Siro last season.

david.d
March 10, 2005

so my fellow forumites. are we in for a night of absolute delight as we progress to the next round of the champions league or are we going to taste yet more disappointment as we exit the champions league yet again. no one expects us to do it so lets hope the boys prove everyone wrong. what i want to do know your opinion on is if edu doesnt make it who would you partner paddy with tonight. the cultured composed fabregas who can play the killer ball or the battler and warrior who is flamini who will put his foot in and not be intimidated by anyone. i love them both to bits and dont mind who of them plays as they can both do a job for us tonight. if pushed i think id go with fabregas.....what do you guys think? and while you're at it pires or reyes on the left?

GoonerForever
March 10, 2005

Does anyone know whether Edu will be fit for tonight?

Cannon Balls
March 10, 2005

Yes the actual quote comes fro the Minister for Propoganda and Public Enlightenment Dr Club-Footie Custis the Sun Newspapers attache to Ferguson at OT. He points out that " The truth is that when it comes to knockout stages United just get knocked out". He then goes on to point out that: "Since claiming the trophy six years ago they have won only one knockout round". So there was never any mention of not having won a KO game since 99. Only the fact that they have won just the one round since then.Disgraceful points out Dr Club-Footie Custis for the greatest club in Manchester.

JamesLT
March 10, 2005

M17/GOONERURU: Sorry, Bastian Schweinsteiger might be a great young talent, but I can't see him as a marketing man's dream with a name that translates as "pig-climber"... Face it, would posters of Beckham's face be on the walls of a million teenage Japanese girls if his name meant "sheep-shagger"?

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

See the reserves lost 3-2 to Cov City last night,Ali played 85 mins and Lupoli played the whole match so I guess we wont see either of them on the bench tonight,Taylor and Larsson were withdrawn at the last minute so they will be on the bench.Star of the show for us was young Stokes who scored both of our goals,how old is this kid,16?.Graham Barret,remember him,another player who couldn't make it at THOF scored 2 for Cov,both headers.

No wurries Les
March 09, 2005

thanks for that cobber.

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

M17,thanks for that,how the hell did I miss out Fabregas!!

Les Murray
March 09, 2005

The word 'won' should have been in that last post somewhere ...

Les Murray
March 09, 2005

I think that United CL statistic might be that they've only one tie in the later, knockout stages of the competition since 1999 - as our resident United fan says, it was against Deportivo in 2002.

M17
March 09, 2005

Goonerguru, there was another arsenal player in that top ten list apart from Lupoli...a certain precocious Spaniard called Fabregas...the others in that list were Fernando Torres of Spain, Andreas Ivanschitza of Austria, Sends Davids of South Africa, Lucas Biglia of Argentina, Fake Ronaldo, Rooney, Danny Szetela of the USA (who was given a trial by Man Utd but let him go), Bastian Schweinsteiger of Germany and Jeremy Menez of France. Also have to add that this list was made by the European Business magazine on young players as potential global brands like David Beckham...meaning to say a player with both ability and commercial marketability value...we need that to be honest and two of them in that list tells a lot about the future.

Bristol Gooner
March 09, 2005

Wonder how Mourhino felt after going through with a hockey score?!

Mickey Sloan
March 09, 2005

At the end of the day Terry was a rock. When it was level on aggregate and Barca were through they had their backs to the wall and the only way they were gonna score was through a set piece. We can't score from corners. That takes so much out of your armoury. We need to practice attacking the ball and getting out of jail that way sometimes. Toure and Senderos get in there!10-0

going round in circles
March 09, 2005

irregardless the 'fact' was incorrect!

Cannon Balls
March 09, 2005

Nope, they won 4-3 but went out on G/D, we lost out to Valencia same way. It's little use winning a battle if you lose the war!. The truth is Fergusons never transfered his EPL domination onto the Euro stage end of story. A sobering thought though for Ferguson-Manure haters, is that had it not been for Wenger, the drunken jock would have won every Premiership Title bar, the Blackburn one since the leagues inception!.

Nope
March 09, 2005

beat Deportivo 5-2 on agg. and what about the 4-3 win vs Real Madrid year before last?

Bristol Gooner
March 09, 2005

Maybe they got there without actuall winning a leg, 1-1 at home followed by 2-2 away or something. I can't be arsed to check but it must be something like that.

that interesting Manu CL 'fact'
March 09, 2005

about not winning a knock out match since 1999. What doesn't getting to the semi final in 2002 count?

Cannon Balls
March 09, 2005

Decaf,i think Wengers right when he says that BM will not come to play Poker. They are holding a pair of aces, so we need three of a kind to trump them.They will defend in depth and offer threats on set pieces and corners, not something that we know only too well that we have not looked convincing at defending this season, so we need to avoid giving away silly free kicks in dangerous areas. Cygan is the main culprit at this, so his welcome enforced sojourn in the stands means that there is no danger of that from him tonight.

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

Decaf,just feel we need to do something different,not a plan B just a change,as I said I dont think BM will do that much attacking,so why have 4 at the back and if Cole is one of the MF we can still put 4 in there to help if needed..I think Cole has been our best left sided MF/forward in recent games and he wouldn't be out of place there for tonights game.I hope Flammini plays to give us that extra bite in MF along with Paddy and Edu(if fit).DB10 could play just in front of them which would leave Henry and one other,probably Reyes/Ljungberg playing in a 3-4-1-2 formation,on the bench he would then have some decent changes to bring on with Cesc/Pires/Toure/RVP,I don't think it will happen though.

Bristol Gooner
March 09, 2005

As well as the Cole/Clichy partnership has worked recently I think Wenger will stick to Cole at LB to try and bring some stability to the defence and play Pires or Reyes in front of him. As Henry says, Bergkamp could be the key tonight (still annoyed that he didn't travel to Germany) and it's good to see people like Pizarro slagging off Henry before the game and stating it will be impossible for us to score two goals. Hopefully Wenger's sticking those quotes up on the dressing room wall as we speak. Of course the main worry for us is at the other end and although we need to score, I think a lot of patience is going to be needed tonight. It's going to be tough but it's not impossible and I just hope we don't see Wenger making a defensive substitution after 85 minutes if we're winning 2-0. As for last night, yes Chelsea were lucky but they did score 5 goals over the tie so it can't be that undeserved. At least we might have some chance of revenge if we make it through and I'd rather face them than Man Utd the way they've got to us this season. I can see what Wenger sees in Essien too after last night and yes Wiltord looks to be in fine form but he never really gelled with Henry did he and unfortunately for us I don't think anyone has apart from Bergkamp. At least Henry's gone some way to try and explain his sulkiness on the pitch at times, finding the right partner for him is going to be one of Wenger's toughest tasks to date http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/football/articles/17135145?source=Evening

Decaf
March 09, 2005

You may have a point, Cannon, although I can't recall whether they were genuine, outnumbered at the back, breakaway goals. Was it Martins who caused the problems? In any case, Bayern don't have anyone that quick, do they?

Cannon Balls
March 09, 2005

Decaf,Inter at Highbury in the 3-1 defeat, they hit us twice on the break for their first two goals, though Lehmann should have saved the second and the third long-range one. Set pieces still look a problem for us with Sol absent so i am pleased that Roy Makaay is out, which is in our favour in that regard.

Decaf
March 09, 2005

Can anyone remember us being caught on the counter in Europe? Goonerguru ... is Campbell fit? Do we have a midfielder who is going to screen the defense in a reliable way? Otherwise, I hope Wenger isn't thinking like you. However, nothing will surprise me tonight. Cole and Clichy marauding down the left, linking with TH and Bergy, and covering back with their pace would be grand. Right side is less obvious, but I suppose Fred and Lauren will do. In any case, please not Fred and Jose in the same team.

Mee
March 09, 2005

Decaf: Milan’s performance last night was a reminder of just how effective a team can be when its individual members have a collective will and no one player has technique and skills so far in excess of the other players that it distorts the whole team. Gattuso, as you rightly point out is a pit bull, but he also has brilliant technique. By contrast Barca try to accommodate players of disparate talents like Ronaldinho and Van Bronchorst within the same line up. When a team has an intuitive, inspirational player like Ronaldinho he is liable to attempt things with a high risk tariff, he can score a sublime goal as he did last night, but he will also make the odd mistake - when that happens and you lose possession in a dangerous area, you would prefer to see Gattusso rather than Van Bronchorst backing you up. I feel that Arsenal belong to the second group, for Ronaldinho, read Henry, and for Van Bronchorst read Cygan.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 09, 2005

It would be interesting to hear, if we turn it around tonight, if any of the players feel their name is on the cup this year. An old cliche no doubt but if you think back to how the 9 men came away from PSV with a point it makes you think.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 09, 2005

Saying that though goonerguru the key to tonights game is dependent on how disciplined our defence can be. They must try to remain solid and refrain from giving away needless freekicks anywhere in our half and should we get back into the tie under no circumstances drop back to our 18 yard line and invite pressure. Also, stating the bleeding obvious, our big players need to turn up on the night and an early goal for Henry via a Bergkamp assist would be the ideal platform.

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

parkerknoll,I fell for that one didn't I.

Decaf
March 09, 2005

http://www.bettingzone.co.uk/football/betting/story_get.dor?STORY_NAME=betting/05/03/08/manual_190901.htm. I reckon (hope) we will be able to get a couple. The big question is whether, if we do manage to pin Bayern back, we will we be able to cope with their counters. I think there is a fair chance, because our defensive woes come from another source entirely. I don't think we are particularly vulnerable to being caught on the break. In fact, we're so vulnerable to crosses I wonder if garlic or holy water would have the same effect. Moreover, someone should talk to Lehman and Kolo about the inadvisability of pointing a gun at one's foot and then and pulling the trigger.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 09, 2005

Goonerguru - I thought we'd been doing that all season, with our back four you can guarantee that at any given point in the game at least one of them will go missing!

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

Would there be any benifit in playing 3 at the back tonight,whatever BM might say I don't think they will be doing that much attacking,and play 5 in midfield with Ash being one of them then we could play Henry and ANOther up front,not sure who that would be,perhaps Ali for one half and Quincy for the other,any thoughts.

Decaf
March 09, 2005

Bernard, that was one thing that struck me about Milan last night and over the whole tie. A sense of coordination and purpose. There was never any point where they flagged or let Manure dictate the pace; except for the last 10 mins or so they never went into outright defensive mode (they always looked to go forward but never left the back door open); there a collective brain in midfield; and they have an pair of cojones that would grace any bull in the form of Gattuso and Cafu. Sometimes I have a distinct sense of a collective "now what the Dickens should we do now?" emanating from the Arsenal 2005 team.

ed
March 09, 2005

About the 2 games last night..Gordon McQueen...What a pillock..Was watching the Milan/Utd game and the gulf in class was amazing. Commentators Moran,Tosach and Lawrenson as referred to the teams as comapring chalk and cheese..The great English Hope 'Rooney' was out of his depth..If henry had put in a performance like that that he would be called a bottler!!! But McQueen on Sky Sports then says that there wasn't much to choose between the 2 teams and if Utd had taken there chances then who knows...Well if Milan had taken there chances we would have been talking a Cricket Score!!!!! And Chelsea....They got throught with a bit(a lot) of luck, but showed Character..But they lack in Class...All running around the pitch at the end was embaressing..Most teams would shake hands first and then celebrate, but to do what they did was classless and insulting to football!!! Now come on the Arse tonight and give us something to celebrate, although thats said in more hope than expectation....

Decaf
March 09, 2005

Gary, I take it "that bloke" was not stuck out on the wing? If we did get though, Lyon would be a nice draw, it would be great to see SW again, and surely Bergy could make the trip. In any case, I hope we DON'T get Milan or Chelsea. Mind you, on second thoughts, I wonder if Manure didn't help Milan to look so good over the tie.

Random thought
March 09, 2005

why does a player need to go down after being fouled before a penalty is awarded? why can't the ref just give the penalty if the attacking player is clearly fouled but stays on his feet? wouldn't that dissuade diving and cheating? i was just remembering henry not going down after being pulled back by that southampton defender in the FA cup final.

GARY
March 09, 2005

The bloke who scored 3 for Lyon looked a bit useful.COME ON YOU RIP ROARING REDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cannon Balls
March 09, 2005

Decaf,Ferguson is always trotting out that line and comparing United with big Euro clubs and himself with their managers.All of whom are tactically more astute than him. However the other day he conceded what many of us had always believed, that his one solitary success in the CL was a fluke! It's true that like in all cup comp's, proven again last night by the Chav's win against a better side, that you need some luck,like getting away with impeding your opponents GK. Mourinho has also been pulling these stunts in the EPL, using American style football tactics to knock defenders out of the wall on free-kicks thus leaving a gap for Lampost to fire trough. Other factors other than luck and cheating though also come into play, Chelsea's GK was paramount to their success last night,when they were under the cosh and would have conceded a couple more goals but for his brilliant saves; and it's no coincidence that the drunken jocks solitary moment of CL glory was when he had a world class GK. Let's hope that we enjoy some 'bonne fortune' tonight against BM, and that Lehmann out-performs his Deutch nemesis in the GK stakes by keeping a clean sheet.

Nouveau Soccer
March 09, 2005

Bruce, actually, the Deloitte rich list is just based on income, the rankings don't factor in profitability. On the other hand the report also doesn't really talk about other sources support. So, debt service costs don't figure, but by the same token neither do subsidies like millions dropped on the club from a Russian helicopter or help given by the local community (Madrid doing a suspicious property deal to rid Real of its debts, Italian and German clubs getting their stadia gratis, thanks to local taxpayers). But your point has merit - too much is made of Arsenal punching above its financial weight. What about Porto, Monaco, Lyons... Oh, and while I'm at it, the real indicator of performance is player incomes, not transfers paid. This correlation, however, has to be taken with a pinch of salt as well, because the better clubs do, the bigger the bonus payments to players.

North Bank Mural
March 09, 2005

Interesting fact heard this morning, Manure have not won a CL knock-out match since lifting the thing six years ago. Fergus could be singing the blues very soon....Go for the throat tonight AFC.

bubblechris
March 09, 2005

Clock End its obvious Sky decide who does and doesnt get done. The time they give to incidents determines whether the FA act or not. The FA should be ashamed and AW, or someone, should produce video evidence that exists that there is a bias against us created and caused by the TV pundits.

Simon
March 09, 2005

Clock End - You can't see how Chelsea were lucky? Taking nothing away from a great performance by the blues. You talk about steadying the ship and not folding under pressure but Barca were the ones who did that. Fighting back from 3-0 down to put themselves in a winning position with a goal worthy of winning any match, dominating possession and controlling the macth away from home only to see some muppet bundle their keeper to the floor stopping a simple catch. Sorry vut to me Barca were very unlucky. Yes, Chelsea played well defensively and had Cech to thank for keeping them in it. But Barca displayed all the skill and technique and over two legs totally dominated home and away. Chelsea played like the away team in both legs and countered at pace very well. Their attitude was also good but Barca were cost a deserved place in the last 8 by a truly shocking decison. I can't see you saying the same if we're 2-0 up tonight and then Ballack bundles Lehmann over to get a late away goal.

Bored
March 09, 2005

Credit where its due. I thought Chelsea were excellent last night. The fact is they played with spirit and heart which is something that has been lacking a bit from us this season. All their big players stood up and were counted. I actually thought there performance was a bit ominous for the self belief they will undoubtedly have gained. I just hope Arsenal put in that kind of effort tonight....

Bruce Smith (Highbury)
highbury@brucesmith.org.uk
March 09, 2005

Rich: The talk of money is all rubish - Arsenal poor - give me a break! The Football Rich List published a month or so ago has us as being SIXTH richest club in the world. The prediction is that we will be third next year. The rating is based not on sucess but on income and profitability. We choose not to spend the cash on players - that is why three of the other clubs above us in the list are drastically overdrawn at the bank.

Rich
March 09, 2005

Looking forward to tonight's game, it does have a kind of 'nothing to lose' feel about it. We will have to be on top form to get through. An early goal to settle the players and the crowd would be perfect. The Chelski v Barca game was a great advert for football, but I think Chelski were thoroughly outplayed, they had a woeful Barca defence and some great saves from Cech to thank for themselves going through. Barca keep the ball better than any team in Europe and possibly create as much or more than any team. They could have scored 6 against the 'famous' Cheslki defence. On another note, Keegan has stated that the big 3 are ruining the english game because the gap is getting wider and wider becuase of money. It really frustrates me when we get put in the big 3 because of money. No doubt we are in the big 3 on ability etc, but money! Chelski are in a league of their own in terms of money, Man U are quite a way behind them and we inturn are miles behind them. On previous spending we are below Liverpool, Newcastle and plenty of others Saw Wiltord got a hat-trick last night and the much touted Essien scored 2, he looks some player!

clock end clive
March 09, 2005

Bubble Chris i believe the whole video evidence issue needs more open scrutiny and have rattled on about it on here before. I have tried without success to get the FA to explain if there is a procedure and how it works. I have also e-mailed the Premiership with no reply. My latest tack is to request Tom Watt to raise the matter on his Radio Show. I am not so concerned about going down the route of bias against us (although i agree on your Terry point)but more with knowing just who sets the agenda and how the decision-making process operates. I think that all fans of all teams should have more information as we are the main losers when a player gets suspended. If more on this site asked the questions of BBC and Sky maybe we will get a hearing? And then again...

Decaf
March 09, 2005

For those who say 'young blood' for the CL, just watch the Milan Manure again, and note the performance of Seedorf (OK, not that old but a veteran of note), Maldini, Nesta, and most of all the brilliant Cafu, who made both Heinz and Ronaldo look like fools. Milan look a perfectly balanced side, both in terms of the defense and attack, and youth and experience. The key is midfield, where they have one outright pitbull and the rest are superb footballers. A very satisfying game! Ferguson's comment were obviously based on watching a completely different tie: viz "The margins at this level are very fine and that is what has decided the tie overall."

bubblechris
March 09, 2005

Is it just me that feels that the FA and EUFA just use video evidence against the Arse and conveniently ignore everybody elses transgressions. Is there a rule that says hit Arsenal and ignore Nevilles shoves and Terrys throat-grabbing , oh and by the way if Chelsea con the ref just ignore it. Whats the difference between an elbow or an arm andwhat was being done to the Barca goalie? If the devious Moaninio wants to play American Football then why doesnt he just go to the States :@ I'm sure the Russian will buy him a team to pla with :@ Please please if there is any justice in the world let us meet Chelsea in the next round and United in the final Please Please let us prove that we are a footballing team up there with the best and we can beat the cheating dirty teams that we seem to come up against all the time. Come on Arsenal.Has anybody got a defence we can borrow for the night, it would be much appreciated, come on lads lets see some spirit and some of Freddies and Bobbys tackling back it will be crucial if we are going to win.

Bruce Smith (Highbury)
highbury@brucesmith.org.uk
March 09, 2005

CE Clive: Mainstream Publishing - more details on my website...

clock end clive
March 09, 2005

Bruce - who is your publisher here in the UK?

Jose Mourinho
March 09, 2005

" I'm paid to win and I take losing personally. We beat the best team in the world tonight"

C.L. Scout
March 09, 2005

Mourinho displayed what a brilliant tactician he is. He played Gudjohnsen as a 5th midfielder and the Barca defence were really confused for the first 25 minutes. With Gudjohnsen playing much deeper than usual, the Barca defence were pulled apart. Duff's goal was a perfect example where Gudjohnsen came deep, the hole opened up and Duff had an easy run in to score. Chelsea deserve all the credit in the world for a gutsy performance.

old man of hoy
March 09, 2005

Just watched the AC/United game and it has to be said the Mancs were thoroughly outplayed. AC ruled the midfield to such an extent that Jockroach must be having nightmares about it. Ronaldo was piss poor and Rooney even worse. Rio was the pick of their bunch and Keane was tidy but peripheral. Horseface not fit; Scholes and Giggs easily sussed; a workmanlike team with little sparkle. Their need for a goalie is greater than ours. The commentary nearly drove me mad - how many more times are we expected to hear about 1999 when United play in Europe? Jockroach boastfully goes on about how he now only judges his team on their Champions League performances. Well in that case he does not have a successful team does he? In the mornin’ don’t say you love me,’cause I’ll only kick you out of the doorI know your name is rita ’cause your perfume’s smellin’ sweeterSince when I saw you down on the floor.Won’t need to much pursuadin’I don’t mean to sound degradin’,But with a face like that you got nothin’ to laugh about.Red lips, hair and fingernails,I hear you’re a mean old jezebelLets go up stairs and read my tarot cards.

Bruce Smith (Highbury)
highbury@brucesmith.org.uk
March 09, 2005

A huge Euro night again. I will be watching on TV over my cornflakes here in Sydney. I am writing a book on Highbury to be published in the UK later this year. Can anyone let me have their memories of the best Euro games thay can remember at Highbury - best teams to visit, best goals and saves, and general memories. Best ones will get used and credited in the book. You can check out more details on my website...Thanks!

AmericanGooner
March 09, 2005

:) RG, Gattuso is a pit bull. No more cowering to the Wanderers or Red Devils of the league when they raise a boot to us if we had him. Boumsong wouldn't have been a bad Rangers player to get as well. **** Please, Lord in heaven, don't let Mourinho win the CL.

Romford Gooner
March 09, 2005

So we should have nicked Gattuso whilst he was at Rangers?? Well excuse me but I've just watched the last plank we bought from Rangers tonight ( Van B) and it just reminded me how crap he was. We are already strong in CM and do not need another defensive midfielder so let him dream of his future transfer to manure where he will no doubt play second fiddle to the talent that is Kleberson.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 09, 2005

Told you one of them would get through tonight. Agree with DHD regarding the amount of good fortune chelsea are getting this season, obviously their classless manager has sold his soul to you know who. That last goal should never have stood and add that to the Terry goal a few weeks back where the oppo covering defender was blocked off and it's clear that Mourinho has been following the NFL for his offensive plays. Consolation about their result is that it gives us a chance of righting the wrong of last seasons qf and I would give anything, Harlows left testicle, anything, to see us dump them out of this years CL. One other point to AW and the board, please can we have Essien and Kaka signed up for next term, the keeper and cb I'll leave for AW to chose.

Miss Lucy
March 09, 2005

Well, cut across Old Hoy Man - it's you I wanna wed.

Al Murray
March 09, 2005

Mee, get back here to the Four Horseman. There's loads of dirty glasses need collecting and we need you to get your hands dirty and look into the blocked bogs. I think the Celtic lads have been sh***ing bricks again.

Mee
March 09, 2005

The similarities between Barca and ourselves looked quite marked tonight, especially in defence, although you have to say that in Cech they have the finest goalkeeper in the world. Chelsea would be out now but for him. I thought Deco looked sluggish in the midfield at times. What Barca need is a young home-grown talent to put pressure on Deco - where could they possibly find someone like that - only joking guys - honest!

AmericanGooner
March 09, 2005

Its looking that like kind of year for Chelsea. Excellent defense (tonight not withstanding) and the rub of the green and a fairly decent attack. The one thing that I grudgingly admit is that they do have what you guys call 'bottle'. How would Arsenal have responded to a 3-2 halftime lead, giving up 2 late first half goals? I don't even want to think about how we'd respond, its a bit depressing. **** Gattuso was an animal in the midfield v. Man Yoo. Wenger is an outspoken admirer of him. I would love to see him at Highbury. Rumor has it he may be looked to as the long term replacement for Keane. We should have nicked him from Rangers.

GunGun
March 09, 2005

Every German, whether a Bayern fan or not, will be supporting Bayern Munich on Wednesday night. The Vaterland comes first. It is amazing how much spite is directed against fellow English teams in the Champions League by other English fans. Chelsea showed us how to do it and it can only be good for our league that they are through.

Dave
March 09, 2005

Well done Chelsea. Tonight showed the importance of having a world class goalie. Cech was excellent...Terry and Cole as well. No sour grapes from me. Happy that Man United are out. But I cannot feel any hate at all for Chelsea. Why should we hate them? Great discipline, good defense. John Terry if only you were at Highbury. You are the re-born Tony Adams.

old man of hoy
March 09, 2005

Exiled - thanks for that info about the "walk of fame" - so right that George should be included because he is an all-time Arsenal man with a fantastic record. If the club is saying let bygones be bygones that is excellent to hear. Perhaps United could develop a "walk of infamy" - Horseface's cheating; Phil Neville's fouling; Keane's criminal act of ending a fellow professional's career; Cantona's vicious attack on a supporter; Rooney's vile abuse of officials; Jockroach's similarly vile abuse of journalists; young Jockroach's crooked dealings; Busby's lack of respect for the Munich survivors; the crowd's despicable traetment of Arsene; all spring to mind.

Genève Gooner
March 09, 2005

Forgot to say, MoanUre lost. Every cloud has a silver lining

Genève Gooner
March 09, 2005

Chelsea's winner was outrageous, but in general Collina had a bad game by his standards. What went on with Rijkaard, Ronaldinho and the stewards at the end? The usual Chelsea class? I only saw a few seconds but it looked like the stewards were out of order. Barca outplayed Chelsea for long periods. Made them look like idiots. But Chelsea won. They seem to go out on the pitch with self belief in abundance. I hope we have that tomorrow night.

Cannon Balls
March 09, 2005

Barca were technically better than the Chav's who however had once again a touch of luck, and somegood saves from their GK to keep them in it, there winning goal should have been overruled however. I still can't see them winning it, and AC Milan for me are still the team to beat, their defense is the best in Europe, not the Chav's. The drunken jock lurches from one defeat to another; also facing a charge of bringing the game into disrepute, surely not!, along with Rooney, after the Palace game for using insulting language toward the ref', who had quite correctly refused to award Manure a penalty after Rooney had dived in the box. So much for sky diving then has the parachutist remarked after his 'chute failed to open!. Yes it's all free-fall now for the lying scotsman - on his way down - and out.

DHD
March 09, 2005

Well who'd bet against it? He's buying everything else.

old man of hoy
March 09, 2005

What greater compliment can you give John Terry than to say he is assuming Tony Adams proportions as a skipper. Come on Paddy Boy - drive us on to glory tomorrow. This for poor old Jockroach. Benjamin and Sarah, who were both in their 80’s, invited their grandson Morris to dinner one evening. Morris was impressed by the way Benjamin preceded every request to Sarah with endearing terms - Honey, My Love, Darling, Sweetheart, Sugar Plum, etc. The couple had been married over 50 years and clearly they were still very much in love. While Sarah was in the kitchen, Morris said to Benjamin, "Grandpa. I think it's wonderful that after all these years you still call grandma those loving pet names." Benjamin hung his head. "I have to tell you the truth, Benjy," he said, "I forgot her name about 10 years ago."

DHD
March 09, 2005

Oi, Colina you spawny-eyed git. That's not your Rolex - your's is in the Maybach.

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

Clive,I am not saying they didn't play well,at 3-2,Barca hit the post twice with their GK beat and had plenty of other chances,all I am saying is if that had been us one or two of those chances would have gone in maybe more,couldn't fault Chavs work rate and effort though,it was spot on,if we have the same good luck as them tomorrow we will sail through but don't hold your breath .Hope when Wenger goes shopping in the summer he dosen't call in to Barcelona when he is looking for defenders.

Tollgoon
March 09, 2005

It makes my teeth itch to admit it, but very grudgingly I have to admit that Chelsea played a fantastic game. never say die attitude, and I couldn't see Barc coming back once they got the 4th goal. Does anyone else think that Mourinho has got something in his camardery with the team. maybe that heart on sleeve attitude from the manager is giving his team that "extra push" - showing the love. I know I'll get shot down for suggesting it's missing from our own manager, but I can't help thinking that it's great to see the cajoling when it's tough and the celebration when the jobs done.

Richie
March 09, 2005

Ok, I admit when I first saw the goal I didn't spot what happened to the goalie so posting was based on the first time of seeing the goal. Have now seen the slo mo replay and yes it should have been disallowed no doubt. Having said that, Terry was left to have a free header. That's what I was referring to about the poor defending.

clock end clive
March 09, 2005

Come on guys - can't see how Chelsea were lucky - be fair - before the match they were assumed to be favourites to lose the tie; they go 3 up in a blitz but then get pulled back and are being toyed with for half hour; instead of folding they steady the ship; under intense pressure they score a fine winner; and that is lucky? Yes, i accept that Barca were individually more skillful, and in Xavi and Belleti had the men of the match, but when it came to it they couldn't meet Chelsea's self-belief. Lucky? Leave it out. Now we must try to do a similar job - our big players must give it all in the way that Terry, Carvalho, Cech, Lampard and Makelele did. Hats off to Joe Cole too - big performance from him. Shape up you Gunners and make this a London thing!! Don't you just love it that United have gone?

cheatin scum
March 09, 2005

cheating chelsea scum . carvalleo held the barca keeper for terrys goal

Dormouse
March 09, 2005

Very lucky chavs. Can't remember ever seeing a GK being held on the spot before for someone else to head past them & the ref not noticing. If we'd tried it, we'd have got a yellow card & certainly no goal. We just don't have the players with that range and level of skill at cheating.

DHD
March 09, 2005

Murial - not sour grapes, just a realistic assessment of the Chavs' strengths and weaknesses. I've just seen the Terry 'goal' again; clearest foul on the keeper you'll see. I reiterate, the best team lost.

simon
March 09, 2005

Can't argue with OMOH's compliments about Chelsea's defence and their truly superb keeper, but the facts are without that goal they were out and thats no way to settle a tie like that.

North Bank Mural
March 09, 2005

Anyone noticed the similar dental patterns of Ronaldhino and Dwight Yorke? Are they of same parentage? What kicked off at the end of the game? OMOH, has the gag well dried up?

simon
March 09, 2005

Richie - Are you having a laugh?? Sloppy defending. Maybe we should try shoving the goalie to the floor on our corners, even we might score a few. ***What a joke. A great game settled by blatant cheating. Feel very sorry for Barca who came back from the dead only to be totally robbed. I can well see why they were so pissed off. A truly terrible way to settle such a tie. As if their money doesn't give them enough of a head start, now they're allowed to bundle the keeper over and stop him making a routine catch. At least the mancs are out. What happened to super Rooney, the expletive boy wonder?

Brett
March 09, 2005

Arsenal will win the tie tomorrow. End of. Trust me. Trust Arsene. Trust the team. We shall do it!

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

The difference between us and the Chav's is that if we had played like they did tonight we would have easily had lost that game by 2 or 3.They will go on to win it now,it is their season,any luck going has certainly gone their way,we on the other hand have had none this year,or very little,we could do with an extremely LARGE slice of their fortune tomorrow.But I live in hope and who knows a good performance may,I repeat may put us in the hat for the next round,I wait with fingers ,legs and anything else I have got crossed.COYA...........

old man of hoy
March 09, 2005

Well done Chelsea - tremendous win - what a goalkeeper and central defence and what a team spirit. Put your prejudices aside and give them their due. Talk about pride before a fall - step forward Messrs. Samuel Etoo and Deco. Q. Where did Ronaldhino go for most of the second half? Bringing my prejudices right back to the centre - alas poor Jockroach - we knew him well.

North Bank Mural
March 09, 2005

Chuck them sour grapes DHD!!

Richie
March 09, 2005

Was hoping for a Barca win but well done Chelsea. Sloppy defending for the winner. Only got themselves to blame. Shame we are not a threat at corners. An integral part of the game.

North Bank Mural
March 09, 2005

Get real Steve, Wiltord was never consistent enough. God I hate Hose A, we'll never hear the last of this. We must succeed tomorrow or they have well and truly knicked our crown.

DHD
March 09, 2005

Brilliant game you’d have to say but some random thoughts on the Chavs: they are a fortunate team – luck is still their 12th man and has been most of this season; they have a miraculous goalkeeper – Czech is a true phenomenon; they have no left back – I mean they really don’t have anyone who can play there; they are pedestrian in central midfield – bid fat Frank is a effective but he’s a lump; monkey-boy Cole was their best player tonight – that should worry them; with 20 mins to go, someone flicked Collina’s switch and he gave the Chavs almost everything thereafter – the Terry goal looked dodgy to me; the best team lost.

Niall
March 09, 2005

Pity he only bagged 2 in his time at Arsenal, isn't it harlow.

didn't PTG say it would never happen?
March 09, 2005

Arsenal Holdings plc Newstrack Announcements 08/03/2005 Arsenal Holdings Plc ("Arsenal" or the "Company") Issue of Shares to GranadaArsenal is pleased to announce that, in order to satisfy its obligations under aconditional subscription agreement entered into with Granada Media GroupLimited, a subsidiary of ITV plc, ("Granada") at the time of Granada's originalinvestment in Arsenal in October 2000 (as amended and restated in November2002), it has today issued and allotted to Granada 3,269 new ordinary shares ofGBP1.00 each in the capital of the Company (the "New Shares") at a price ofGBP9,177.12 per New Share. Each New Share will rank pari passu with theexisting ordinary shares.The condition now satisfied under the agreement with Granada is the expiry of 12months from the securing of planning permission and funding for the EmiratesStadium development.The aggregate subscription price paid by Granada for the New Shares was GBP30million. Arsenal will use these proceeds for general corporate purposes withinthe Arsenal Group. Following the transaction, the total number of ordinary shares in issue hasincreased to 62,218. The directors' total beneficial shareholdings remain at28,075 and their percentage ownership of ordinary shares of the Company istherefore now 45.1%.Keith Edelman, Managing Director, commented:"This share issue completes the agreement made in October 2000 between Arsenaland Granada. The proceeds will assist Arsenal in the achievement of ourcorporate objectives, including investment in the development of our playingsquad."The Directors of the Company accept responsibility for this announcement.

James - Copenhagen
March 09, 2005

Chelsea are through.

come on Barca
March 09, 2005

in the corner

James - Copenhagen
March 09, 2005

Utd are out.

Richie
March 09, 2005

It's set up nicely for a Silvinho special!

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

Jammy bastards,they should have been buried by now.

Homer
March 09, 2005

AC 1 Man 0!!! Ohhh happy dayz and a better 1 coming up 2moro

Juliano
March 09, 2005

Yes it is "our" Silvinho. And it is our own Sylvain Wiltord as well, scoring a hat trick for Lyon.

James - Copenhagen
March 09, 2005

Sylvinho replaces Van Bronckhorst, and Wiltord scores a hat trick, bring back the Arsenal rejects! United losing and Chelsea needing a goal

Steve Martin
March 09, 2005

Here, Listen lads, that Wiltord blokes a wanker, once again showing how much many on here actually know about the game...

sorry just come in
March 09, 2005

is that our Silvinho ?

clock end clive
March 09, 2005

After 45 minutes all you can say is what an amazing game. Gio is what we all knew - a poor defender - he is being stuffed every time Joe Cole attacks him and Chelsea can still win this if they show even more belief up front. As for the penalty - of course it was - how can you go for a cross with your hand in front of your head and say it is accidental? Rewind to Senderos v Sheffiled a couple of weeks ago and what a different tune from the commentators!I can't imagine the gamut of emotions Cannon Balls is going through at the moment!!

Roast Beef
March 09, 2005

Yes David D. I can just see it happening at THOF tomorrow. We learn from the chavs, come at em like gangbusters, run up some quick goals, and then get rogered on the counter, losing on away goals.

Exiled In Newcastle
March 09, 2005

OMOH - there was a little piece on the back of one of the tabloids (dunno which one - was in Smiths and it's rude not to have a gander) saying something about 'A walk of fame' or some such thing at the new stadium. The point of the article was that George Graham was going to be included - the board deciding enough time has passed. Nice of them to catch up - I seem to remember him getting one hell of a reception when he took to the pitch at half time of a testimonial (Merse?) to celebrate the 25th aniversary of the double with the other players. The first one that is (love saying that). Down Bernard! By the way - does anyone else think that if we played Barca it'dbe the first match where both teams get into double figures (now watch us get drawn against them and play two 0-0's!). Bayern have got no chance tomorrow. DB10 is about to play the game of his life.

North Bank Mural
March 09, 2005

Yes American,Chelc up against it now. Barca look like they can score at will. he he he!!

Richie
March 09, 2005

Have to say it's a super match. Ronaldinho's 2nd goal was pure class. Out of nothing. Superb technique. Still could go either way. Barca's defence isn't that great and Van Bronckhorst does not look comfortable at all.

AmericanGooner
March 09, 2005

There were 2 players who I knew Man Yoo were after back in the summer of '03 that I was praying they didn't get. Rooney and Ronaldinho (in hindsight I'll add Robben). I am so thankful he went to Barca. Funny how things work out. Without Chelsea, we would have seen Robben at Man Yoo as well. Without the Barca board election summer Ronaldinho would have been at Man Yoo. Imagine all 3 there? C'mon Arsenal show the west end boys how its done!!

DS1
March 09, 2005

Did he mean it Petr?

AmericanGooner
WOW!!@Chavs3Barca2HT
March 09, 2005

Barca recovered from the shock. Now they go into the half with belief. If the score stays the same (which I seriously doubt). Barca goes through right? On away goals?

Tollgoon
March 09, 2005

and it hits the post - oh dear, how sad, never mind.

Popeye aka Tollgoon
March 09, 2005

Oh my goshk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You Chelsea muppets. That's why Ronaldinho is World Player of the year.

North Bank Mural
March 09, 2005

Oh dear the burberry boys are slipping.....Where's that great Chelski defence now....

SH
March 09, 2005

Woohoo! 3-2. 2nd Ronaldinho's goal. Come on Barca!

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

4-4 on agg I am so happy to be wrong.

SH
March 09, 2005

Not over for Barcelona yet. 3-1. Ronaldinho penalty.

AmericanGooner
March 09, 2005

I'm expecting us to be like we were at Inter. Single-minded...no idle ball left unchallenged...everyone playing for each other...everyone totally committed to the cause...and..lord, I hope, all XI and subs playing the whole 90 + minutes. **** Well, the 'plus' of Chelsea stuffing Barca is that it helps the PL's reputation as a top league. Liverpool is helping and if we do well, then its further enhanced. Frankly, I'm a bit jealous of Chelsea winning in this manner. I want us to go through sooooo badly now.

david.d
March 09, 2005

i hate to say it but chelsea have blown barcelona away and have approached the game in the right frame of mind. i still want them to lose but that doesnt look like its going to happen. surely if they can rattle barcelona and score 3 goals in 20 minutes then we can do the same against bayern tomorrow. they have shown us the way. tomorrow WE HAVE TO PERFORM LIKE THIS AND REALLY ATTACK THEM AND SHOW NO F**KING MERCY. COME ON ARSENAL!!!

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

**** me 3-0 bye bye Barcelona,I expect that wins the debate for Bernard.I thought our defence was bad but compared to Barca's we are world class.

AmericanGooner
March 09, 2005

3-0 Chavs. They'll be grooming Mourinho to be the next Pope after tonight.

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

Sorry lads but I think the Chavs could well get through,a 1-0 win is quite gettable for them tonight,hope I'm wrong though.

old man of hoy
March 09, 2005

Cannon Balls - agree totally about memorial to Norris. I assume Chapman's bust will go on the van but i must say in all the publicity about Ashburton i recall little on the likelihood of statues, memorials or a museum - can anybody enlighten me if there is going to be such? On a visit to Nou Camp i was amazed by Barca's museum - combination of hommage to their considerable history but also a commercial outlet. Thats the way to do it - money for nothing and the chicks for free. At the risk of being outed as PTG I can't see why Mee's analysis of our position in European terms is any sort of negative statement. Ever since our decline from the heydays of the 30's we have been punching above our weight; our continued ability to mix it with the fabulously rich and/or corrupt giants of European football is to our credit. That is exactly why i love Arsenal - who wants it laid on a plate by a billionaire; or a motor company; or a bent politician; or a regional government; or a Far Eastern oriented plc? Like Shorty our club has that "special something that just can't be found in books" - its what made the Arsenal famous and a winner out of me.

AmericanGooner
March 09, 2005

Alex, to be fair, we had the best defense in the league last season so it didn't seem like it was a major problem. Also, no one envisioned Toure` would be having the year he is experiencing now. An inform Toure` this season would be worth another 3-6 points and we'd be looking at possibly going into the 2nd leg of the CL with a draw in Munich. Their first goal changed the game. I agree we need a CB though. I've long said Sol (and Vieira) will continue to miss more and more games with each season. However many games they missed this season due to injury, they'll miss as much and more the next season. With Sol having to play international football he has no time to mend any niggling injuries. Vieira as well for that matter. We need someone who can come in while he was out to partner with Kolo who is better than Cygan and will be a quality stop gap till Senderos is ready to assume those duties. As far as the BM game...have you been reading the posts? We are all very excited and nervous about it.

Alex
March 09, 2005

I am also a bit surprised that the forum does not seem too interested in Wednesday nights game. That`s what counts ..not games versus Sheff United or Bolton that you all go on and on about.

Alex
March 09, 2005

I am dismayed that we are in this defensive mess once more.Sol Campbell is Arsenal`s only first-class defender. Now he is out and we in the quagmire once more. Arsene, how could you let this happen? Look at Chelsea. They have several first class central defenders should Terry be injured. And don`t tell me it is only because of their money. We can never put in a serious CL challenge with a messy defnse with only one top defender. A top club needs a serious reliable and professional backline...not a mixtuire of rookies and players who have been converted. Produce serious defensive lines or don`t bother to compete in the CL.

AmericanGooner
March 09, 2005

Mee, regarding Fabregas, I noted in an earlier post that with Ronaldinho and Deco do they need him for the near future? Also, as Bernard noted. Arsenal were not a major Euro power back in Brady's day. We weren't even league champions. We're certainly one of the top ten clubs in Europe. Our inclusion in the G14 is a testament to our being a top Euro club. Very few players nowadays finish their career with their original club but Mee, I have to disagree that its likely we'll lose Fabregas when you say. **** Bernard, I think Lupoli could be a..and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to make this comparison...Sherringham type of player. He will be like one of those top strikers in the Serie A where if he has only 2 or 3 chances he'll score at least one. **** Ralph (3/- Clock Ender), I think Mourinho was using this season to see what he had. He brought in a few players but he also knew he had quality players already here. After all they were 2nd in the PL and semi finalists in the CL. He couldn't bring in 11 new players but built on what he thought was good at Chelsea and bought players he thought they were lacking in (Drogba, Cavallo). This summer he'll evaluate everyone and get rid of who he needs and continue to build his team (Gerrard and Adriano possilby) from what Ranieri left him.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 09, 2005

Bernard - it was definitely half empty when I switched over so i guess the blue faithfull had given up hope of equalising! Sabir - if we got another cb on top of Kuffour he'd be ideal at set pieces but I think the added weight would kill any pace he had. BTW I think his best days are behind him and would go for Chivu, long term injury so a possible bargain to be had with Roma needing to raise funds.

Bernard
March 09, 2005

Parkerknoll, haven't got the paper in front of me now but I looked at the attendance earlier and seem to remember it said 43000+. I think the capacity is around 48000.

Topside
March 09, 2005

I've got a spare ticket for tomorrow's game. West Stand. Face value - £39. Anyone interested?

Sabir
March 09, 2005

Dave, I hear what you're saying about the atmosphere. It's embarrassing when you sit near the away fans, or even when you watch it on the telly and there's just no noise being made by us. Having said that, I know quite a few gooners who are very loud generally and vociferous at the games. Unfortunately, I think they're in the minority though and perhaps something needs to be done to encourage a bit more vocal support. There have been some games when we've absolutely blown the roof off, so the Arsenal fans can do it! What exactly needs to happen to change things, I'm not sure. I remember Arsenal tried singing sections a few years back but I don't think it really took off. Re: tomorrow night. If the big guns bother to turn up and perform for us, then we have every chance. We really need an early goal and it goes without saying that the defence must at all costs prevent that away goal. I like Kuffour. We could do worse than him in the summer. But we'd still need another defender on top of him. Just before DB10's enforced lay off, he was playing some sublime stuff. Hope he picks it up again quick. I know Wenger can't change captains just for one game, but it would be fantastic if Dennis was made skipper tomorrow night. Unlike Vieira who seems scared to have a go at certain players, Dennis has the metal and would be ideal.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 09, 2005

Lord Harlow - a very sad state of affairs when you have to cheer on Johnny Foreigner, have to admit to being right with you on that one though! Annoying thing is I think one of the "english" teams will go through tonight so it's a lose lose situation for me! Did anyone watch the Citeh - Trotters game last night, two points.. was any mention made of Allardyces "team of nations" and how low was the attendance, I switched over for the last few minutes and the stadium looked half empty.

steve martin
March 09, 2005

COME ON MILAN, early goal, to stitch the Mancs right up, they lose at least we were in the Champs League a day longer than were...

Bristol Gooner
March 09, 2005

Well I suppose that just leaves Wenger to decide whether to start with Reyes or Pires on the left then and I'd imagine Pires will be left on the bench because of the recent injury. Is Ballack back?

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

Good news,Pires trained today and looked good,a decision will be made tomorrow to see if he plays or not.Bad news,Edu picked up another injury in training today,a decision will be made tomorrow to see if he plays or not.More good news,Cygan definitly out for tomorrows game.Even more good news,Alumunia is injured and will be out of tomorrows game.

Bernard
March 09, 2005

Mee, but we still don't seem to know what kind of figure we're talking about. Without that I'm struggling to know how much legitimacy to give to the rumour. For those interested in the financial side of things, this Reuters report suggests the remaining £30 million has been received from Granada (or ITV as they're called). http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=sportsNews&storyID=686037§ion=news&src=rss/uk/sportsNews

Dave
March 09, 2005

Being a Gunner exile living in southwest Germany I was delighted to meet a young fellow Gunner on holiday in Stuttgart. He said he goes to all of the home matches.He was ok but very laid back, cool, calm, pensive, philosophical and not very enthusiastic or passionate (unlike me, of course). Well, I told him that the last time Bayern played at Highbury a couple of years ago in the Champions League the match finished 2-2 after our 2-0 lead. And the most annoying thing for me watching the game over here on the box was that the North Bank was totally outsung by the Bayern supporters who made a hell of a noise at Highbury. "So?" my puzzled Highbury friend said. He didn`t seem to understand or to bother to much. It suddenly dawned on me that this was the new kind of suburbian rational London football supporter who is loathe to show emotion or passion and wishes to appear "cool" ( how I hate that word)at all costs. I then suddenly understood why Highbury is known as Library and felt sad. Maybe the North Bank can prove me wrong on Wednesday and the sparks of enthusiasm will reach my Gunner acquaintance who might clap if we score. If the majority of new Gunners are like him the team might as well play behind closed doors!!!

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

Eskimo,I honestly can't remember who the other 9 were,I have a feeling that the Argentine lad that we are/were intrested in was one,Maschereno spelt something like that,and Rooney may have been another,perhaps someone else can give more detail,I wish I had took more note of it at the time.I think the survey was to do with marketability,football ability allied to image rights,I do remember that he was the only Arsenal player on the list.

Mee
March 09, 2005

Bernard - I think PV argued that his profile at the time was less than the Galacticos simply because he wasn’t a member of the Real Madrid team. Once he became a Real player his image and his merchandising opportunities would escalate to the point where the percentage that RM retain would effectively pay for his wages. Interestingly Owen is not a member of the elite Real squad in terms of wages - I think Real knew he wanted to leave Liverpool and could offer him a deal which would be acceptable to him.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 09, 2005

Re: Wiltord fee... Mr Wenger wanted him and Dein's boys agreed the fee which is still "undisclosed". £13m is probably just like REYES with performance related upgrades from initial £6m. Incidently a Chelsea supporter justified their recent £250 transfer expenditure by saying on radio rant that Arsenal had also spent hugely last season. REYES for £20m (truth?-poss £10m) and Robin Van Persie for £11m (truth?-poss £2m). Nice try, Chav.

Bernard
March 09, 2005

Mee, if that story is true, do we know what the difference was in the percentage of image rights he wanted and what they were willing to give him, and what monetary value that equates to? Because he doesn't have the merchandising potential of a Beckham or Owen, or even a Zidane, Ronaldo, Figo or Raul I'd imagine, so would it really be worth that much if it was such an important factor in his decision. And did Vieira tell the bloke from the Guardian that was the reason, or could it be just the unsubstantiated waffle (just for you Decaf) that quite a few journalists even at the broadsheets seem to indulge in these days (Bose and Lawton if you need examples)?

The old Mee
March 09, 2005

Any one here trust AW to spend wisely in the summer ? Remember Wiltord ? Sack Wenger i say !

Cannon Balls
March 09, 2005

New Mee, same old me, silly old me. whatever. Here is the alternative me. Spuds beat Newcastle away then United in the Semi and Bolton in the FA Cup Final - after extra-time - and a own goal by Bolton. Chelsea win the league and then get beaten by the drunken jocks side in the CL Final. And everyone lives happy ever after down at the, 'Lane That Time Forgot'. Oh dear! i just woke up and found i had been dreaming!!. Now if you go down the Lane today your in for a big surprise!.. for the primates are having a picnic..

The old Mee
March 09, 2005

Eskimo; One thing you forgot in your list of reasons why Vieira stayed. He asked to be put on the same wage scale as their other Galacticos - Beckham, Zidane, Raul, Figo, which was granted, but Real refused to offer him the same percentage of his ‘image rights’ they confer on the said galacticos, arguing that Vieiras profile was not as great as the others. Unless the Guardian’s football correspondent has been mis-informed, we have to take this as being one of the reasons for his sudden change of mind.

Eskimo
March 09, 2005

gunnerguru - who were the other 9 in the future megastars list? Also, the young, tall Belgian you're thinking of is actually Danish - Bentdner (sp?) who I think is very good. Funnily enough, I don't recall ever seeing him score with his head, although that might just be my memory, despite him being 6'4'' or something like that, and I think he's still 16! *** Ralph - did you see Fowler's miss yesterday?! Don't be so harsh on Lupoli! *** Mee - Cesc didn't leave Barca as a 22 year old who wasn't getting his chance, but as a 16 year old. He must've had a good reason for leaving. Remember, it won't only be a question of 'does he want to play for Barcelona?' (to which the answer is probably yes), but also 'does he want to leave Arsenal?' (probably no). It's just going to depend on which question he answers more emphatically. I remember once upon a time, there was this guy called Patrick Vieira who played for Arsenal and was wanted by that great club Real Madrid. Moving to Spain seemed like the most obvious thing to do for his career and reputation, but he just couldn't leave our club. Why? Because ignoring all popularity charts, stadium sizes, trophy hauls, spending power, fan bases, sponsers' stature, loudness/quality of fans' songs and even kit aesthetics - putting it simply, there is something very special about Arsenal that can't be measured or assessed or even understood by those unlucky enough to have never experienced it, and that is the reason I think Cesc will stay. He may not stay forever, but I feel that as long as we want him, his best years will be played out in red and white.

The New Mee
March 09, 2005

Cannon Balls: Down at the Lane that time forgot, Jol’s leaving on a jet plane, the Spuds are going down, Fergiscum and Manure are going out of the CL and Chelski play loathsome football (Cruyff) down at the ‘bridge of sighs’ - is this the realism you crave?

Bristol Gooner
March 09, 2005

Fair enough Mee, I'll take you for your word - after all pretending to be someone else on an anonymous internet forum would be pretty pointless and sad. It was just reading a lot of your posts at once after returning from illness that led me to believe otherwise. Anyway, back to football and looking forward to tonight's games - especially hoping Mourhino's hypocritical attacks on divers come back to haunt him when Collina sends off a Chelsea player for 'simulation'.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 09, 2005

I will be watching ESSIEN closely tonight (Lyon game). Lyon play similar pace & style to Arsenal, so he may suit our game and fit in seamlessly. As I have said previously, Mr Wenger will have enough money to buy extra quality players to build a larger first team squad and keep in the quality youngsters who are very close to starting games. Finally, if BARCA win Spanish league do you think Ronaldinho would consider a move to Norff London and wear the 'traditional Mauve' next year? PIRES (has Spanish roots) & EDU to Barca and Ronaldinho to Highbury...hmmm.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 09, 2005

How ironic it is hearing that Spuds are ‘considering’ moving to the New Wembley stadium. After all the abuse they give The Arsenal about being ‘gypsies from South London, they have the nerve to uproot to Wembley which for the non locals is in excess of TWELVE MILES from Tottingham High Road! In London traffic that means between 40mins to 90mins journey by car. Perhaps they will change their name to suit. Tradition is everything, eh? Bah, humbug!

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 09, 2005

IMHO Arturo LUPOLI is Arsenal’s version of Robbie FOWLER (style only). LUPOLI has guile which gives him that ‘fox in the box’ quality. ANELKA was often TOO quick to play in that role. FOWLER ‘sniffs’ chances by drifting into the most appropriate place. When an Arsenal player beats their full back and runs along the goal line, ANELKA would just run straight at the goal thus narrowing the angle to receive the ball. LUPOLI understands (at 17 yrs old) that a player running past the touchline cameramen must pass the ball back towards the penalty spot allowing another Arsenal player to run onto it and slam it home. Remember HENRY blasting over vs Chelsea. recently Even in the Sheff Utd game LUPOLI made good runs but never got the service and was lacking strength on the ball at times. I suggest the next DB10 at AG will find LUPOLI much easier and we will finally score the untidy tap-ins we so much need to win games.

East End Gooner
March 09, 2005

I think we need to take a lesson from United tomorrow. We need to treat Bayern a bit like United treat us and try and bully them. It is a difficult one to do and risky but a couple of hefty ones in the "free time" early on would be helpful. We may as well take the risk and go down fighting. One thing about them from the last game is they didn't seem as physical as previous Bayern sides. agree with Dave that we should pressure them in their half. The pace has to be good too. I jut hope we are physically fit enough. We have looked weaker this season and need to toughen up. Agree about the crowd too. Haven't managed a ticket for this one but I expect all who are there to be giving it very large. The only chance is for everyone to get on them on and off the pitch from kick off.

Bernard
March 09, 2005

goonerguru, I think spending time in art galleries is a better sign than the pubs that Pennant and Noble (seeing as Exiled mentioned him) used to spend their spare time in. Noble was a fan actually and someone told me that he was in one of the pubs near the ground before a home first team game against Tottenham (he was going as a fan) getting well and truly tanked up (obviously he wasn't in the squad). It wasn't too long after that he was released and I don't know if that type of behaviour (if it occurred) had anything to do with it, but I'd have thought a young player is running a horrible risk that the story will get back to Wenger is he goes to a very public place like a pub near the ground before a big game and does it.

Mee
March 09, 2005

Let me make this quite plain: I desperately want Fabregas to stay. I am incredibly excited by AG. I think we are approaching a time which may eclipse even the memory of the club’s success in the 1930’s. Is that a negative response?

Cannon Balls
March 09, 2005

Mee,your full of shit.

MEA
March 09, 2005

Cannon - OK, I get it. ..... Bristol - Yeah but sometimes i feel that posters actually make sensible orginal posts and then from being attacked for not being 'Arsenal enough' they get all defensive and an argument turns into a slagging.

Mee
March 09, 2005

Bristol: I seem to be making a habit of directing people to my earlier postings - as I said before - ‘realism does not preclude obsession’ I am an Arsenal obsessive in the Nick Hornby mould, wishing everything will be alright, but knowing somehow it won’t.

goonerguru
March 09, 2005

Bernard,I have to agree with you on Clichy,I feel he will be a better LB than Ash in time.Depending on which players get brought into the club Flammini will become a squad player and so may Senderos again depending what competition he has,Quincy has outrageous talent but wether he makes the grade or not only time will tell and as I said earlier RVP I'm not too sure.Lupoli there is just something I like about this lad and that is after seeing him play the once and he had a poor game as well,but I just get this feeling that he will make it,he came with a big reputation and goal scoring record from Italy and he has been doing the same for our reserves and youth team,I read the other day that there had been a survey done on the next future generation of megastars around the world and he was one of the 10 that was selected,and apparently he spends all his spare time in Art galleries not a reason for making it big in the game though,just feel he will.

Cannon Balls
March 09, 2005

MEA,the reason that Chelsea are known has Chav's is to do with the way that the clubs become affulent. It's nothing to do with their indidual personal life styles. Chelsea under Bates was broke and going into liqudation ,the supporters are enjoying the goodtimes with money put in by Abramovich, the club itself is still poor and living above it's means. As Wenger pointed out at the weekend: "it's artifical" - and should Abramovich suddenly leave the building - bingo!. So Chelsea and their supporters are Chav's in a football sense. Everytime Abo's Helicopter is in the air ,so is Chelseas future !. They had another benefactor who flew around in helicopters and look what happened to him. And he never had any enemys!!!.

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

MEA, I don't think we have a problem with a lack of arguments on this forum! Everyone has positive and negative opinions about different aspects of the club, I would just prefer people to be a bit more honest about why they hold certain opinions rather than just stir up trouble by pretending to be an Arsenal fan.

Dave
March 08, 2005

I heard it on SAT1 television. Arsenal plyers are shitting themselves because they are afraid of Bayern said the reporter. Quotes by Bayerns players, who are known to be an arrogant bunch, will also have helperd the story. Don`t forget, before the 1st leg Felix Magath was predicting a 5-0 victory for Bayern. He was almost right but it still is very unsporting to say it before the game. Maybe the Gunners can teach them a lesson in modesty. Break them down early .German team cannot cope with that if they are attacked in their own half Don`t give them space to play

Bernard
March 08, 2005

goonerguru, I'm not sure why but I'm a little less confident that Lupoli will make it than you. He has a good chance, but has less pace than Aliadiere and I've not even seen anything that suggests he's more technically gifted than Aliadiere, and I really doubt he's as technically gifted as Bentley. His big advantage over Aliadiere is his fitness levels, unless anything goes horribly wrong in that respect. I'm looking forward to seeing Stokes, but haven't yet seen him play but with a bit of luck may do in the League Cup next season. Myself, I think Clichy is the second most promising young player at the club, after Fabregas.

Exiled In Newcastle
March 08, 2005

All this talk about Sidwell reminds me of David Noble. It wasn't that long ago that some on here were using his departure for West Ham as further proof that Wenger doesn't give kids (or English kids) a chance. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth that we were letting a rreal star of the future get away from us. If memory serves he's at Boston United now.

MEA
March 08, 2005

Bristol - If everyone was positive about Arsenal, there would be no one to argue with "why we'd keep someone like Fabregas rather than why we won't" ...... Dave - "German teams don't like being pressurized & harried" Are you trying to say they don't like it up'em?.......... Cannon Balls - You keep talking about Chavs. I firstly thought it was a nickname for Chelsea because of Abramovich(sounds a bit russian), but I have since learnt that it is something to do with poor people who spend money they cant afford on flashy clothes. (correct me if I'm wrong!?) What has that got to do with Chelsea fans? I thought most Chelsea fans were more affluent (or effluent even) than that?

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

Dave, any idea how the German media are reporting Arsenal's feelings on tomorrow's game?!

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Bristol,Mee,is the artist formerly known has PTG,Bisto,gravy,Phil the Spud,fred,bernie,rage,and other capless capital letterless handles too numerious to mention. His insane antipathy toward the new stadium and all things Arsenal the odd bit of praise chucked into try and confuse is all old familiar stuff.And it goes on..on..on..on..on,like a tap dripping water..

Dave
March 08, 2005

According to German television Arsenal`s players are shitting themselves at the thought of facing Bayern on Wednesday. Turn up the volume Highbury. Lets give them a night to remember.

Dave
March 08, 2005

According to German television Arsenal`s players are shitting themselves at the thought of facing Bayern on Wednesday. Turn up the volume Highbury. Lets give them a night to remember.

goonerguru
March 08, 2005

Talking of Fabregas as most people are on here at the moment,he is without doubt the brightest star we have in the young players currently in or close to the first team.There are others of course,Clichy,Flammini,Senderos and possibly Quincy who will if they continue to make progress all be regular first team players,not to sure about RVP.Just behind them is the next batch of bright young talent trying to make it in to the big team,Lupoli looks a certainty to me,to make the next step up,but then again I said the same about Ali.Then there is a young tall Belgian(I think)striker but I can't think of his name who is getting rave reports and Ryan Smith who has been plagued with injuries who could well make it and then there is the brightest star of this batch Anthony Stokes who is very highly thought of at THOF.

Dave
March 08, 2005

According to German Television reports Arsenal`s players are shitting themselves at the thoght of facing Bayern on Wednesday night. Henri has shot his powder and the rest of the team are terrified, they claim. Turn up the volume, Highbury and let`s give them a night they won`t forget.German teams don`like being pressurized and harried. Give them room and they`ll play you off the park. But Highbury is a small pitch and if we break them down early and keep our concentration everything is possible.

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

Whether Mee is PTG, a Chelsea/Spurs/ManU fan or a very, very pessimistic Arsenal fan I doubt we'll ever know but the belittling of the impact the new stadium will have is very reminiscent of the former. I have no problem discussing the good and bad points about our club with rival fans, in fact I rather enjoy it (if they admit to it). However, you'd think an Arsenal fan would have something positive to say and would maybe rather argue why we'd keep someone like Fabregas rather than why we won't.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Parkerknoll, at no point have I ever claimed that we are seen on a par with Barcalona in European terms. I just think it's ridiculous to claim that Fabregas will definitely leave for Barcelona over the next couple of years - or ever. Once again, it's certainly not impossible that he will leave; but neither is it impossible that he will stay.

Mee
March 08, 2005

Bernard: I take your point about there being no absolute certainty regarding Cesc staying with or leaving the club. Like you and everyone else, lets just enjoy his performances while we can.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 08, 2005

Bernard - I think your wrong if you think we are seen on a par with Barca in european terms, and I also think Mee underestimates the difference the new stadium will make to us. OK Barca have only 1 European Cup to their name, did El Tel not take them to a losing final?, but they do on a quite consistent basis look as though they could go on and win it whereas we have looked as though we could go on to the final maybe once or twice in our entire history. AW has made great strides in gaining wider acceptance of us as a european power and paramount among those is the style of football we are now recognised by. The next step will come either this summer, if his transfer budget is as generous as we all expect, or when we move to the new stadium and the extra funds start to filter through. AW has ensured that the training facilities are in place, save for one or two obvious weaknesses we have a top notch 1st team squad, a good smattering of potential world class youngsters both in and on the fringes of the 1st team squad, a world class stadium nearing completion in a world class city, all these elements will help to attract the right sort of players and with the increased revenue AW and the Club will, for the first time, be able to target top name players at the top of their game.

Mickey Sloan
March 08, 2005

A interesting article for once being critical and praising Wenger....http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=327061&cc=5739

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Bristol, I must admit I'm beginning to wonder if your theory yesterday might have some accuracy. Ok Mee, try this: yes I do accept that Fabregas may well develop into one of the top players, on a par with the likes of Zidane, Ronaldinho, Totti (though I'm not sure I'd have him alongside the others), Ronaldo, (and dare I add Vieira and Henry to that list too). Now under Wenger and with the new stadium I don't think it is remotely inconceivable that the players you just mentioned would have signed for Arsenal, and Ronaldo and Ronaldhino have both said complimentary things about us in the past? It is pure garbage to state with total certainty that we "will not be able to keep him, contract or not." You don't know that, and nor does anyone. He might not stay, but he might do. Henry and Vieira are two of the top names in world football and have been for a few years whether or not they were having difficult times at their previous clubs. And while we all know Vieira has been tempted to leave, both have stayed so I think the club might be rather more enticing to great players than you seem to think.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Times have has Bob Dylan predicted changed,though not in the way he hinted at. Since Chippies time at Highbury the whole football scenario is different,unless of course your a Spuds supporter at the 'Lane That Time Forgot' where playing for a Spanish club is still a step up in the world. The new format CL which replaced the old Euro Cup, when only one team could qualify, gives a greater opportunity to players to now pit their skills against the Euro clubs. And with the WC and Euro Championship thrown in, plus all of those qualifying games too, the top players must be sick of the sight of each other!. Apart from meeting up to make lucatrive commercials for Coke companies, the soft drinks that is. I notice they neve r use Rio for those ones, only anti-drug campaigns !. Or drink driving ones. So all of these players want to leave Arsenal to play abroad is out of date clap-trap from another time. Players want to 'come' to Arsenal now, and will do so even more in the future. Wenger has laid the foundations for a great future for AFC to build on our glorious past, going back to Sir Henry Norris who set the ball rolling, they should erect a statue of him outside the Emirates, to commemerate the great works that he carried out on behalf of the people of North London, giving our Capital City a club that it can be justly proud of, with it's great traditons that he laid in place and were then built upon by Herbert Chapman; Wenger continues their great work and is becoming a legend in his own right.

Mee
March 08, 2005

Bernard This may need the wisdon of decaf to sort this one out. Try this - Do we accept that Fabregas will develop into one of the top players, on a par with the likes of Zidane, Ronaldinho, Totti, Ronaldo, if we think the answer to that is yes, why then is it inconceivable that the players just mentioned would have signed for Arsenal? We will not be able to keep him, contract or not.

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

Mee, if you are so determined to try and prove that Arsenal are not a top European club, or that Fabregas will definitely move away then go ahead, one might wonder why though. Over the past 5 years Arsenal have easily been a more succesful side than Barcelona without their financial muscle and when we move into the Emirates Stadium that gap will close. The bigger picture for me though is why have you got such a negative view on the team you say you support? In an earlier post you said "Arsenal have neither united’s european glamour nor Chelsea’s financial clout and cannot be considered to be within that elite band which attracts and keeps the best players of which Cesc is a perfect example. They do, however, have two world class players in their ranks." Now obviously everyone makes errors on this forum but I would never refer to Arsenal as 'they' and I doubt many other supporters would. And as for your opinion that we can't attract or keep the top players, perhaps you had better ask Pires, Vieira, Bergkamp, Reyes or Henry?

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Sorry, just to expand. The point about saying that Brady left when he did is that Arsenal are a very different club to the one it was 25 years ago, and that difference is very likely to become much wider when the new stadium is running. I think if Brady was still a player for us now, we'd have a lot more chance of keeping him than we did then.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Make that 25 years ago.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Mee, Brady also left twenty years ago. Big players leave clubs - Zidane left Juventus, Ronaldo and Figo left Barcalona, Matthaus left Bayern Munich and so on - it happens with a few exceptions here and there. For example, Vieira and Henry have yet to leave Arsenal - and so has Fabregas, and it's the latter player that this is all about.

Mee
March 08, 2005

Bristol - Give someone enough rope . . . Liam Brady is a perfect example to back up my argument. I am not compiling a list of special players who have represented Arsenal or Barcelona, merely suggesting that elite performers like Brady, who came through the youth ranks, loved the club (and still does) could not resist the prestige of playing for a major european club. Brady was on record at the time as saying that he did not want Arsenal to match the wages he was being offered - It was simply he wanted to test himself against the top european players.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Decaf, the away defeat to Mourinhos former club Porto was relevent inthat it was a game that he did not want to lose. And the 2-0 defeat was a nasty surprise to the 'chosen one', who had boasted that Porto could not beat his Chelsea. Also the goal conceded against Norwich was signficant, the first one since Noah built the Ark, because it comes on top of goals conceded in other comp's recently, the Norwich goal ended the league clean sheets. So Chelsea do not go into tonights game with a pyschological advantage of believing that no one can score against them. This is part of the Mourinho myth that he and the media have been expounding, using the dom'league to make their case. I expect them now to win the Premiership title, but not by the amount of points that we did last season. I go along with Cruff's view that in football terms Chelsea are rubbish. I look forward to seeing them knocked out of the CL tonight; along with the drunken jocks merry men!.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Mee, I'd be very surprised if whoever was Barcelona's left back in the eighties was as good as Sansom, whether or not they clamoured to buy him. But regardless of that, or the comparisons of any other of the players (which I just named to show how dopey it is to name a few ex-players who think their old club is special because any reasonably big club will have such people - I bet Greaves think Tottenham are special), I'll just repeat the basic points that undermine your certainty that Fabregas will re-join Barcalona, didn't you say within two years. He's on a long-term contract at Arsenal. He left Barcalona to join us. If he was so desperate to play for them, that would seem strange to me. There is no guarantee whatsover that he will ever re-join them, let alone in the next couple of years; just as there's no guarantee he won't. There's also no guarantee that Ronaldhino will never join Arsenal, by the way.

Gunner Gun U Down
March 08, 2005

dont u just wish this would happen to arsenal, check out the link. http://footballonsunday.net/headlines/?id=22675

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

Sorry Mee, I didn't realise Ronaldhino was Barcelona born & bred, add Brady to Bernard's list and I think you'll find there's not so much difference between the names you've put forward for Barca and those that have played for Arsenal.

Decaf
March 08, 2005

There does seem to be a weird conception amongst some here that Chelsea play like they do because they are limited. I thought it was a matter of choice. 0000 I am praying for Manc to be knocked out for the simple reason that all Manure CL games are shown live here, no matter how enticing the other games, and I am heartily sick of this, not to mention watching Ronaldo, van E*G, Looney, Ryan Rugg, and various Nevilles: smug, arrogant, ill-educated louts to a man.

Mee
March 08, 2005

Bernard: May I refer you to my earlier post in which I stated that Bergkamp, Vieira and Henry had already played abroad and came to Arsenal because they had not been successful or their talents had not been appreciated. You mention Adams and Sansom, Arsenal legends, and quite rightly so, but I don’t remember Barcelona clamouring for their signatures. They were essentially first division players of high quality but were unlikely, initially, to have made the grade in either the Spanish or Italian leagues. I think there is a case for the mature Adams to have played at that level, but who can forget Van Basten’s performance against Adams and the England defence in the European Championships - that is the level of quality that we are talking about.

Decaf
March 08, 2005

I hadn't even noticed that Liverpool had won the league cup again. Well done to them!

Decaf
March 08, 2005

Clock end, Porto won the CL last season against the odds by doing just that, and there are no signs yet that the approach runs into diminishing returns. Chelsea are showing (or confirming the Italian lesson) that an essential negative approach is not just for underdog. Indeed, the flag-bearers for the beautiful game have been on the back foot since the Galacticos peaked. Cannon, you may have a point (I see nothing more than a slight blip), but I did say 'league' where that is the first goal that Chelsea have conceded since they played us before Xmas! You should also ignore their '2nd last' CL result. Also, I think the way Chelsea play in the league seems to be much more suited to Euro.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Mee, I don't remember asking you what was special about Barcalona to be honest, though to reel of the names of a few ex- or current players who would say their old or present club is special must be easy to do for any big club, be it the Barcalona players you mentioned; Adams, Sansom, Bergkamp, Vieira, Henry and maybe in the future Fabregas and Clichy at Arsenal. The point is that Fabregas is an Arsenal player on a long-term contract; he left Barcalona to join us, and as you said the other day, it's fairly rare for players to play for the club they support - even though it does obviously happen. So just because Fabregas may have been a Barcalona fan is no guarantee whatsoever that he'll join them ever, let alone as soon as you suggest. I'm not saying he definitely won't, but it's wrong to say he definitely will.

Dormouse
March 08, 2005

About GKs this season. I've noticed quite a lot of comments about the ball moving in the air & making it harder and more unpredictable for GKs. This implies that there will be more mistakes than in seasons past. I assume that this movement is mainly a problem with long range shots, free kicks, crosses and corners & is much less of a problem for GKs who have reliable defences in front of them who are good at heading the ball away. When looking at other teams GKs, I've noticed mistakes & good saves, but have never kept any sort of count of how often they have to deal with high balls or come out to deal with a mistake by the defence.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Er,Decaf, 4 goals in their last two CL games conceded, both games they lost and only i scored, plus the other two games of note recently . 1-0 Dereat against Newcastle, FA Cup,and 1-1 at 90 minutes against Liverpool LC final.Tell a different story.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 08, 2005

Look around the Chelsea team. Apart from the keeper I see no real World Stars. The Chosen One has adopted the Alamo approach whereby any ball near to Chelsea’s penalty area is kicked into row Z. John Terry is everyone’s Player Of the Season for doing just that. However, he is not seen as England’s first choice centre half because Internationals require every player to attempt to play football. Chelsea have won the Prem (probably) by NOT losing to the “lower teams” and have also managed to snatch 1-0 victories when they did not deserve them. Robben is their cutting edge and when opponents are camped in your half a thwack by Terry upfield can allow Robben to win the match. How sad is it that Chelsea were prepared to win at Barca without having had a shot on target? Duff, Robben etc all fall about just like Deco & his Porto team mates to spoil the flow. I hope Chelsea go out tonight because they only play the percentages and do not try to entertain. Years ago we had lads in the street like myself “doing a Cryuff-turn”. I wonder how many of our future stars will be in awe of how far John Terry can kick a ball off the pitch? Have it!

Dormouse
March 08, 2005

I see no reason for Chelski to be pessimistic about tonight. If any team at the moment can aim at a 1-0 result to go through, it's them. With Robben, the odds would have been in their favour, but even without him the odds are fairly even. I'm not sure Barca can afford to park the bus - that would relieve the pressure on their defence & they'd only need one bit of luck & they'd be in front. Seems to me that it is in both teams' interests to play defensively and do their best to nick a goal when they can; the first goal will change the situation dramatically. Chelski seem to be in a better situation, you'd have thought, than they were in at the same time last season. Let's hope we do better when we're up against it tomorrow.

Gooner7
March 08, 2005

Arsenal 3 BM 0, last minute goal from Qunicy

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 08, 2005

One to cross off your list Arsene.. Anyone see the dash outside the area by Sebastien Frey (Palma) last on Sky (GOL) programme? Chap running towards corner flag was taken out by Frey's ridiculous lunge. Red card. Meethinks we do not want another keeper whose blood rises when opposition comes over the half way line!

old man of mourinho
March 08, 2005

Yes CannonBalls i am very worried about my team's defending - at this rate we will concede 10 goals in a season - truly appalling. However I am not sitting by idly - today i call Arsene for some help. I now hand you back to my old friend OMOH who i know has to as you say " go off to the collar." Sadie and Benny were both 65 years old and were celebrating their 40th wedding anniversary. When all the family and guests had left their house, a fairy appeared from nowhere and said to them, “Congratulations, you two. I’m here to grant you both one wish each.” Sadie said, “I want to travel around the world.” The fairy waved her magic wand and POW – Sadie had tickets in her hand for a round the world cruise on a Cunard liner. Then the fairy asked Benny what he wanted. Benny replied. “I wish I had a wife 30 years younger than me." So the fairy picked up her wand and POW – Benny was 95 years old.

Decaf
March 08, 2005

Cannon, that's one goal conceded by Chelsea in the league in how many games? Not grasping at straws are we? In any case, I hope Maurinho is as worried about it as you, and that this induces some sort of panic in the ranks.

Decaf
March 08, 2005

EEG, I has a similar problem a few years back. My institution had all sort of filters but mainly relied on excruciatingly slow bandwidth (or whatever) to stop naughtiness. I found a way to get round this by setting netscape to block all fancy colours, graphics and particularly animations. (Defeats the object if you are looking for porn, of course). My point is that there might be some way of setting your browser to give you a minimal or text only view.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

RG,i watched the Chav's game against Barca and Barca were far superior, the 2-1 scoreline flattered Mourinho. Worringly for Mourinho his team have stopped keeping clean sheets too, even Norwich scored against them, and the hard work they made of getting a draw at 90 minutes against the car thieves, needing an own goal to do so, does not augur well for them against Barca. But if they score first, like us with the away goal advantage, then they might pull it off. I see it being a draw myself, having watched Chelsea 'huffing and puffing' to beat lesser teams at the Bridge who come and park the team coach in front of their goal.

Decaf
March 08, 2005

Very back-handed of you, Bernard. I did have flu-like symptoms all last week. In retrospect it seems it was a caffiene deficiency, which in turn was a side-effect of a sunburn-induced temperature. I can assure you the biochemicals are now rebalanced. US Martin, I have always admired your devil-may-care attitude toward conventional wisdom, politics, and logic. Compliments abound.

Ali Baba
March 08, 2005

steve g - aliadiere is no doubt a quality player, but he's too injury prone, most probably will develop into a 25 games a season kind of player... speaking of injury prone, is edu staying or leaving?

Romford Gooner
March 08, 2005

I must be missing something here because I think Chelsea have a great chance of going through later today. If somebody offered me a 2-1 defeat in Munich or anywhere else in Europe in a 2 leg tie I'd have bitten their hands off! I think the Barca players are being very premature in writing off Chelsea's chances when their lead is a slender one. For what it's worth I hope Moaninho falls flat on his face later on but whatever happens his press conference tonight slating Frisk and UEFA was the stuff of legend. Sadly the FA have stifled that kind of free speech over here.

AmericanGooner
March 08, 2005

Of the 3 EPL clubs who are behind, Chelsea is in far better shape than us or the Mancs. We have a better chance of scoring 2 goals against Bayern than Man Yoo does at the San Siro. The real question is which is more likely, Man Yoo scoring 2 goals or Arsenal not conceding? Chelsea could play defensive football and try for a 1-0 win possibly.

Alan Hansome
March 08, 2005

Chelsea are facing the moment of truth,starting a match at thr Bridge under Mourinho one goal down. Their normal ven aainst average Premiership sides cautious pragmatic,lets wait and see what transpires will not suffice . Barca will defend safe in the knowledge that any draw sees them through. Chelsea will to do better than against Liverpool in the LC Final at 90 minutes.

AmericanGooner
Arsenal's@SetPieceProblems
March 08, 2005

Was it this season that its been a problem or was it always there and this season it was exposed more? And if so how long ago have we had this problem?

AmericanGooner
BarcaBoss@ChelseaTeamSelection
March 08, 2005

when asked to guess the Chelsea team, had other ideas."The Chelsea team? One: Robben. Two: Robben. Three: Robben," the Barca coach said. **** hahahahaha

old man of hoy
March 08, 2005

Good point Myles but for me the only true test of who is the best in Europe will come when a proper European League is formed. Play it on Wednesday evenings with domestic leagues at weekends. Until a league is set up as in all cup competitions the luck of the draw will play too great a role.

AmericanGooner
March 08, 2005

Can't believe Andy Gray said a positive word about us! http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/3445482

AmericanGooner
March 08, 2005

Sorry, don't have the link: Reports in Spain claim that Arsenal are monitoring Espanyol duo Carlos Kameni and Albert Lopo.Both players have recently been attracting interest from The Premiership, having played key roles in Espanyol's excellent season to date.The Catalans lie third in La Primera and are pushing for UEFA Champions League qualification, but Spanish sources claim they might still make one major sale in the summer.Kameni, Cameroon's international goalkeeper, has been one of the revelations of the La Liga season following his arrival from Le Havre.The 21-year-old has already caught the attention of Manchester United, and is understood to have turned down initial overtures from Old Trafford.Meanwhile, Lopo - a powerful central defender who has come through the ranks at Espanyol - is thought to be attracting interest from Bolton Wanderers, Everton and Birmingham City.Arsenal's need for both goalkeeping and defensive cover is well-documented, and they have dispatched chief scout Steve Rowley to watch the pair in action.There has been no contact between the two clubs as yet, but The Gunners could well be in the race if, as expected, Espanyol do decide to cash in on one of their stars. **** I've seen the keeper before in International competition but not seen much of the CB. I'll keep an eye out though.

AmericanGooner
March 08, 2005

I know he doesn't like a fuss made of him but I was heartened to see Steve post. Chin up. **** Mural, surely one can catch cold by himself by being outside without a jacket in the winter? Still, I was cold just watching the St. Etienne/Marseille game...brrrrr...**** I didn't think Upson was good enough for first team with us but I thought had he stayed till summer we'd have won the title in '03. We were short CBs that spring like we were short CMs this season for a time. Unfortunatley with the quality of the first teamers we have, a player has to be exceptional. I don't think its all bad for most of our youth. They will have a football career and that is really the bottom line for them. Yes, they'd love to play for us but at the minimum they want a career. Most of them appear to have the ability to start for at least half the PL sides by the time they are 21 or 22. With the reputation we have for developing youth, we'll always attract the good ones. And the mid and lower table PL sides as well as the top Championship league sides are more than willing to offer them contracts if we think they are not up to it. The evidence so far suggests Wenger is right. Upson's 2 penalities in one game gives some evidence, Volz looked great on loan at Fulham till he was skinned by us when we play them. To qualify as a possible first teamer for us, a player has to be able to hold his own against Liverpool, Man Yoo and Chelsea domestically and in CL competition he's called upon. I think the vast majority of our players can play against a Brum, Charlton or even Villa but that if that is the extent then they are just not good enough.

Dormouse
March 08, 2005

Apart from historical links, I don't understand the obsession with buying or not buying SWP. He's clearly a decent player who has been improving steadily, but he hasn't proved that he is top class yet. Not shown he can do it at international level, not shown he can do it at a top club and not shown he can do it season after season. Not saying he won't be that good, just that the extent of fixation on him is out of proportion to what he has done so far. I don't think he was as good as Owusu at the same age. In any case, I think the real issue is how we are going to replace Bergkamp. What change will there be in our style? Will we have two strikers rather than 1 striker/ playmaker, 1 playmaker and 2 striking MFs? I think it is only when we have an idea of us that we can work out what SWP might do for us long term.

Myles Palmer
March 08, 2005

Arsenal need miracle to reach last 8 ___________________________________MAN UNITED could only draw 0-0 at Palace.So Arsenal's 3-0 win over Portsmouth puts them only 2 points behind UnitedIf Arsenal win all their remaining games and Chelsea go to Old Trafford and beat United, Arsenal will be second.Is that too many ifs?Saturday saw a dull, scrappy game against a feeble Portsmouth side.Highlight was the second goal of Henry's hat-trick.Flamini intercepted and Vieira played a perfect through ball and Thierry delayed his shot until the keeper went down and then clipped the ball over him.The thing that stuck out, for me, was how much Flamini missed Bergkamp.They all miss Dennis, obviously, but Flamini is new to the team and not such a good passer as Fabregas, so he needs a classy player in those half-striker positions, wanting his passes all the time.CYGAN pulled a thigh muscle and may be out of Wednesday night.Bayern Munich striker Roy Makaay also pulled a thigh muscle in the 87th minute and is out.Bayern beat Werder Bremen 1-0. The goal was a header by Michael Ballack in the 7th minute.So it's Vieira versus Ballack on Wednesday night.Some big stars have been intimidated by Vieira.Veron never went near PV4 when Arsenal beat Lazio 2-0 in September 2000.That game is memorable for the 4-3-3 formation which Arsene employed, using Bergkamp floating from the right.Dennis created both goals for Freddie that night.The first didn't come till the 43rd minute.As you know, 2-0 is the score Arsenal need to qualify.Bayern lead 3-1 from the first leg. Can you see Arsenal winning 2-0 or 4-1?Can you imagine them winning 3-1 and then winning a penalty shoot-out?MARCH is the most interesting month of the football season and this week is the most interesting week of March.I've been waiting for this week's second legs.We have 16 clubs who want to be top 8 in Europe.And 12 of them think they ARE top 8.Some think they are top 4 !So several heavyweight clubs will get a reality check when they wake up on Thursday morning and find that they are not top 4 - or even top 8.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

clock,tick,tock, tick,tock - the boys returned from the sea,bleary eyed. Reyes never cost 20m!, and helped win us the EPL last season. Rooney will win nothing with Manure, and will be gone, once the drunken jock and son depart. Ticket prices at OT with the glazed eyed Smurf spinning his magic spell will rocket!. Doom and gloom, boom-boom!. Time stood still at the 'Lane' and events passed them by, the man in the rain coat spelled it out, but they never listened to his wise words. They never listened then, and, hey!, perhaps they never will....

clock end clive
March 08, 2005

Barry - Van P was not booed at all - just not given a rapturous reception. He was cheered well enough once he got into his stride. Steve G - Aliadiere loked more solid of build when he came on as sub at Sheffield - he has all the potential in the world and i believe he will be in the squad for Bayern. Mee i fully understand your point about enjoying other taem's defeats - to be honest this weekend i got more of a buzz from Palace holding United to a draw than our own win - it is a sad fact that i detest United so much that i was urging Chelsea to beat Norwich. Having said that i can't agree with Cannon Balls view of Rooney - he is a top young player with years ahead of him - i bet that United will get their 30mill's worth out of him before we get our 20mills worth out of Jose. Eskimo - Sidwell was a fine youth player but like many other good young midfielders - Noble, Svard, Ricketts - he could not hope to break into the first team. As to SWP's small stature let us not forget the following - Maradona, Garrincha, Ardiles, Overmars, Zola, Keegan and Owen - to name but a few.

AmericanGooner
March 08, 2005

Mural, I know my Papa Dioup suggestion will not be a popular one. Not sure if you were around but I also wanted us to buy Saha. Injuries aside, I think he's a quality player and would have been good on our side. I understand the hesitation though. As for Dioup, I don't think he's any worse than Sol or Toure` on the ball. The one other thing I like about him is that if he's at CB, and with teams playing 5 across and lettin our CBs come deep with the ball like Sol was able to do and score, Dioup has a wallop of a shot from distance. Players will either have to come to him which opens up space or risk him scoring from 25 to 30 yards out which he can do.

North Bank Mural
March 08, 2005

American my friendly US poster surely you know a cold can only be caught by the transferrance of a germ/virus etc. not purely by getting cold. Cannot agree about "Papa", he is big and strong but not clever enough on the ball for the arse.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Phil,your whistling Dixie son, Glory - Glory- past -Glories; Wenger said that the clubs finances HAD been similar - when he arrived. Not now, and most certainly not in the future. Down at,'The Lane That Time Forgot', football dinosaurs still roam - and neandenthal thinking prevails. Spuds missed the boat long ago, and now will never catch up. Charlton are your rivals these days - not us. And the Chav's nicked your saviour, ain't life a bitch!. Glory be!!!.

Brazil 70
March 08, 2005

With regards to stars joining,I have to come down on the anti SWP side of the argument as I to have concerns over his dimunitive size.I cannot think of too many world class stars who are that small in height & build.Equally I hope Ledley King is not a real target as although his performances in Euro 2004 were impressive I believe the team needs a degree more controlled aggression & fight.Ledley strikes me as a rather gentle soul & not much of a talker.

US Martin
March 08, 2005

"Us Martin-ish" Why I'm honored decaf, truly. Agree with much of your following post. Some people look to tour total goal-scoring record and assume based on that that we have no flaws in our attacking play and if you simply look at the goals for column that makes sense. The same applies in assessing our defensive form. You summed up our defence brilliantly at the end btw. Our problem is in too many matches where that suicidal nature shouldn't have mattered had we put those teams away as we should have it has mattered. How is it as suicidal as we are at the back that we have given up so many fewer goals with two-goal lead or better given how mistake-prone we have been at the back? That's for others on the board, decaf. Seems there should be even fewer clean sheets than there are really...

AmericanGooner
March 08, 2005

I would like us to buy Papa Dioup and convert him to CB. Tall, pace, athletic, excellent header (better than van Persie...lol)..a good stop gap till Senderos gets experience. He can also play defensive mid so we have cover there if we have injuries again. **** Niall, Joaquin only gets up for the big games, all too often I've seen him missing in too many games. If Betis is playing RM or Barca or Valencia he's more often that not on that day one of the best wingers on the planet. The rest of the time he couldn't 'arsed' as you all say **** So for the time being it seems Quincy has jumped ahead Aliadiere and possibly van Persie in the pecking order at striker then? He's not a starter in big games IMO. He's much too inexperienced for this game. He's better off coming off the bench. Lower and mid table sides in the PL I could see him starting if he has experienced players supporting him. **** St. Ettiene v. Marseille game there was a lot of snow on the pitch. I thought the game should have been called. I could NEVER play football in that type of weather. I grew up on the east coast of the U.S. and saw more than my fair share of snow storms. I've played gridiron football in snow and it was hard enough with all the padding we had and wearing themal underwear, no way I could see playing football though. When you sweat the cold air hits your sweat and the sweat on your shirt, so isn't the chance of catching a death of cold very high? **** CB, regarding Wenger getting stick for not buying English players. It seems Ferguson likes buying 'gritty' players. He's still of the mind of the old days when the SPL and the old 1st division were tougher physically in a lot of ways. Also, its all he knows, he's from that rough and tumble Glasgow shipbuilder stock isn't he? He has bought flair (Ronaldo) but my Man Utd friends said it was the players that told him to after playing against Sporting in exhibition.

AmericanGooner
March 08, 2005

Mee, thanks for your post. I would counter that Arsenal are not only in the top 10 ALL THE TIME but at times top 3 or 4 at worst. World club rankings can be a bit like the FIFA rankings, but that caveat said, we are always highly ranked. Also, Cesc has come to us at a young age, the club and the city will have grown on him. He will become a Londoner of sorts. He's far more 'worldly' than Reyes, who never envisioned living anywhere other than Sevilla. Cesc has learned the language...quickly I hear and loves the city. Another point is Barca already have Ronaldinho and Deco, both young. They don't need his services and won't for some time. Real Madrid seems the only other option and they'll not go with him to replace ZZ. Valencia may need his services but we have more money than they do and will have more with AG. Plus, going from Arsenal to Valencia isn't a step up. Edu was after a starting position. If he was told he would partner Paddy he'd stay. He is 3rd choice behind Paddy and Silva and with Cesc's emergence maybe 4th choice in a year or two if not already. **** Last summer I thought Sven should have had Bridge at LB and Ash on the left wing to solve England's left side problem. Ash's recent performances merit that suggestion. **** I would like us to buy Papa Dioup and convert him to CB. Tall, pace, athletic, excellent header (better than van Persie...lol)..a good stop gap till Senderos gets experience. He can also play defensive mid so we have cover there if we have injuries again.

Dormouse
March 08, 2005

Yes, and how long was Ronaldo at Barca before moving on to a bigger club (& then to an even bigger club)?

goonerguru
March 08, 2005

Mee,I suspect that is not the answer that Bernard is looking for,if Bernard knew just one of those players you mentioned I would guess he could have answered his own question,now then Mee please give Bernard a real answer.

Mee
March 08, 2005

Bernard, you ask me to define what is special about Barcelona. Perhaps you had better ask Cruyff, Romario, Rivaldo, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho.

Mee
March 08, 2005

Cannon Balls- Are you whistling in the dark to mask the fear that Spurs may not be the whipping boys you suggest? Wenger has admitted that there really is no reason why Arsenal should consistently finish above them in the PL. if you accept that the resources of the two clubs are similar. In recent years there has been a huge gulf in the relative quality of the two squads reflected in our domestic successes. I hope AG and the quality of the young players coming through will see this gap in quality maintained and widened to the point where even hardened Spurs supporters will have to acknowledge that the glory days of 1961 are not going to return.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Down at 'The Lane That Time Forgot' things are stillon the boil for the Spuds,they live in hope but their hopes are always shattered.Yet still they optimistically turn up. All season Newcastle have struggled,now Spuds draw them in the Cup,and oh dear,Newcastle have hit form ,beating Chelsea and now Liverpool without conceding a goal!!. Another blank season beckons at the 'Lane That Time Forgot'.

BARRY
March 08, 2005

Cannon Balls,Your not making any sense.Are you pissed ? Your begginning to sound like a drunken jock.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

It looks like Spuds made the ricket buying Ricket. We only play a few Euro games a season mid-week anyway, so until it becomes a proper football league, other than a TV orientated entertainment, with it's dubious 'draws', the so-called 'Champions League' is with its second ,third and fourth placed teams qualifying, Everton ?, just a glorified cup comp', but with big-bucks involved. The finals are mainly pony too.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

usuk, take a look at my post after Saturday's game. It's 177.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

davids, to be fair to them I think they do fill White Hart Lane, maybe aside from a few cup games. Not sure what the capacity is, but think it's about 36000 and for league games they always seem to get that.

usukgooner
March 08, 2005

On a positive note, let's remind ourselves that we have the top epl scorer in our ranks - by the way I have lost count (there are so many). Can anyone tell me exactly how many TH has after that hat trick? Thanks.

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

And with Spurs only able to achieve a maximum of 69 points this season St.Totterings day is nigh!

davids
March 08, 2005

I know a spuds supporter who has just about had enough of years of suffering.Hes seen our super stadium and are our plans for the future and has become so envious hes going to start supporting manure so he can at least rival us.The spuds are in the doldrums.A lousy cramped up stadium which they are now beginning to struggle to fill with only 2 or 3 at best half decent players.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Eskimo, Sidwell was good but never good enough to play for Wenger's Arsenal - a bit like Ricketts if you want an analogy. In fact Ricketts is currently registered with a 'bigger' club than Sidwell, but hardly ever gets into Tottenham's team. I think if Sidwell joined Tottenham from Reading, he would appear about as often for their first team as Ricketts does. Letting him (Sidwell) go is no more a mistake in my view as letting Ricketts has turned out to be).

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

From what I understand Sidwell was among those who may well have had a future at Arsenal but left for regular first team football. Wenger's done this with many players that he'd have ideally kept but he tends to leave it up to the player and won't stand in their way if they want to go(Upson for example). Sidwell could be the first to really make it after leaving Arsenal if reports are true but it's hard to really judge how good he is until he's playing regular Premiership football.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Mee, so what is it that gives European credentials? You seem to play down the importance of domestic success, fan base size (popularity), funds or great stadium (didn't you imply Ashburton Grove wouldn't make players want to join Arsenal). So what is it that Barcalona have that Arsenal don't. Judging by your previous comments, I assume you think it's about winning the European Cup or Champions League. Well, Nottingham Forest have done that more times at the moment than Barcalona, so if Barcalona have more European credentials than Arsenal for that reason, you must presumably think Nottingham Forest have more than Barcalona.

Eskimo
March 08, 2005

As another English youngster leaves our club (Matthew Hislop to QPR), I just wondered what people's thoughts on Steven Sidwell were. I was a bit surprised when he went to Reading as he was supposed to be one of our better youngsters and because he was impressing on loan at Brighton. He's recently been voted the best non-Premiership player, which I could've told you for free. He shouldn't still be playing in the first division in my opinion. Thoughts?

PTG, sorry Mee
March 08, 2005

Bernard - You’ve lost me on that one!

BARRY
March 08, 2005

You can get a rough idea what Emirates stadium will be like from a club level view https://arsenal.ticketmaster.co.uk/cgi/index.asp

Mickey Sloan
March 08, 2005

Vicky; I've seen him a few times at Upton Park this season. I've spoken to a few fans down there. The general concensus is that he is toilet.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

So Mee, if you don't think having a high level of popularity means you have a high level of European credentials, do you think Nottingham Forest have higher European credentials than Barcalona?

Vicky Crescit
March 08, 2005

Has anybody seen Anton Ferdinand playing for West Ham? I watched him in the FA Cup against Sheffield United and he looked pretty good to me. From a distance, he looks just like Rio, plays just like Rio and, to me, looked pretty close to being as good as Rio. He could be a good, young centre-back prospect, although he doesn't fit into AW's big-name category.

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

But I could be right!

Mee
March 08, 2005

Bristol: There is a distinct difference between being popular and having serious eurpoean credentials. The Sun is a popular paper with millions of readers, yet nobody could claim that the world’s finest journalism lies within its pages. Realism does not preclude obsession. My life and well-being are governed by the fortunes of Arsenal AFC.

Wok Kung Fu Fat
March 08, 2005

confucious him say that if bullshit is music phil the spud would be a brassband.

Gunfire
March 08, 2005

There is no doubting Mee is the sad individual known as PTG.

East End Gooner
March 08, 2005

Very frustrating - cant access the forum as it seems to be more than 10Mb now and the "police" wont allow access! Complete with excellent siren effect to alert my colleagues. Sounds like I am trying to download porn.

Bristol Gooner
March 08, 2005

As well as money, Edu was also looking for a guaranteed starting place in order to keep his place in the International side and the arrival of Fabregas on the scene made that less likely at Arsenal. Been off ill for a week and just catching up on the posts and I could be wrong here but to me some of Mee's postings have a bit of PTG about them, disparaging comments about Arsenal put in an 'I'm just being realistic' way, getting 'facts' wrong to the detriment of Arsenal (such as not in the top ten in Europe when a report published last week had us 4th in popularity behind Real, Man Utd & Barca - Chelsea weren't in the top 10) Anyway I'm probably wrong but just an observation.

Eskimo
March 08, 2005

Wasn't Edu's 'dream' originally a move to Barca - until they lost interest?

East End Gooner
March 08, 2005

And the suggestion that Edu saw Valencia as a step up is a step too far. This is all about a contract dispute with Arsenal and is about money whatever else he may say. He has admitted as much in the past by saying he felt Arsenal were undervaluing him with their initial offer. If we had paid him the very high amounts he wanted for a player of his status, he would have signed without a problem. Valencia is/was an option not a step up. Apparently another possibility is now Liverpool. Is that a step up? The new stadium WILL have an impact. I am not saying it makes us the biggest club in the World but it WILL enhance our status. And the rumours of a big investment this season could be key. Money has held us back FAR more than our reputation in European competition. It would be a very shrewd move to put us up there BEFORE we move. We need to show that the stadium is to fit our status and not the other way round.

Mee
March 08, 2005

East End Gooner. It is true Bolton have had little trouble persuading players in the twilight of their careers joining them - Djorkieff and the like, and Chelsea, as I said in my earlier posting, can afford to distort the market with their money and attract top players. Arsenal, quite rightly would not wish to do the former, and cannot afford to do the latter.

BARRY
March 08, 2005

Edus move to valencia has got nothing to do with valencia being a bigger club than arsenal.Its about money.Moving on a bosman so he would say its a dream come true wouldnt he ? Its about greed.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Reyes to RM and Owen to Arsenal, Keffour from BM to us also, are two possible signings in the summer. The hot weather scenario is no problem for either. A boost to our defense and attacking options, both players are said to be interested in such a move. Owen if he is not selected to start regular at RM, and Kuffour WANTS to play for Arsenal. Players will fighting like dogs over a bone to come and play for us, once our great new stadium is up and running!.

Mickey Sloan
March 08, 2005

Obviously Decaf is back on the Caffeine Bernhard

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Decaf, I’m worried to be honest. Not about signings, the defence, the keeper, Mee’s obsession with Fagregas joining Barcelona, but about you. Do you remember a week or two ago there was someone posting under other people’s names or handles, including mine and your own. You said you could see the insulting ones by this ‘Bernard’ weren’t from me, which was gratifying, and hoped I could see the ones by this ‘Decaf’ weren’t by you, which I course I could. You’ll appreciate that the reason I could was that all these posts by the false ‘Decaf’ were all easily understandable, unlike your own posts. Unfortunately, the ones today by Decaf, which I presume are by the real Decaf, have also all been understandable. This is very strange, disconcerting, and to be honest, rather alarming. What’s happening to you?

East End Gooner
March 08, 2005

Mee - While I think there is some merit in what you say, I agree with Bernard that things are changing. I dont think the European tradition of the clubs is as important to players as it was before. The transfer market has become steadily more fluid and I can only see it becomming increasingly so. At each "level" of the Premier League, and elsewhere, clubs are managing to recruit players from a bracket that were unattainable to them before. Look at someone like Bolton. Arsenal has a rich tradition and a big status whether or not we have picked up silverware. Barcelona has a piss poor European record for its size and yet has never struggled to recruit. Similarly, if tradition mattered so much, Chelsea wouldn't have a team to put out on the pitch. With a coach with the reputation of Wenger and some of the players we have, I could well see us recruiting at the very top level.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Astion Villa won the European cup,and they are not bigger than us.It seems there is an inferiority complex at work regarding us. Though i accept that we do need to win the CL at sometime,and add it to our CV, but we are already a top club in Europe, and to bracket us in with those clubs that you cited Mee is an insult!.

Decaf
March 08, 2005

Actually, EEG, I was playing a bit of a sly hand in that last post. You may recall that a couple of weeks ago I suggested that our problems might not just be defensive. I still haven't solved the problem of why we are so vulnerable in the league at 1-0 as opposed to say 0-0. My feeling is that it is because our team is good at the hell-bent attacking game (which has the benefit of pinning the opposition back and taking the pressure off the defense) but is less adept at a more canny approach. We are singularly bad at playing the counterattacking game, not because we lack pace, but because we aren't good at holding the ball. I also don't buy that our defense is 'bad', it is a good defense with suicidal tendencies.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Mee, yes it will in my view. We competed successfully with Real Madrid for the signatures of both Pires and Lauren even before our new stadium and revenues. And by the way, do you know how many times Barcelona have currently won the Champions League or European Cup. Fewer times than Nottingham Forest, if you want a clue.

Mee
March 08, 2005

Bernard - would you mind outlining in what way the club will be so different in 2 years time - will the move to AG and slightly increased revenues mean that we will compete with Real, Barca, AC Milan, Juventus? these clubs have a glorious history of european success. All I am saying is that we belong to the next band of clubs. To use the premier league as a template, we would be in the Everton, Middlesbrough, Villa band. Our domestic history is a long and glorious one, a couple of minor cup winners victories in europe does not guarantee a seat at the top table.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Mee,your scenario does not take account of the impending move to the new stadium. It was because of these concerns that you express, that AW persuaded the club to build invest it.Many top players go or did at one time to play in the Bundesliga, and the German climate is not any sunnier than ours. Players will stay or go where the money is, and where there is a good chance of success. Our new stadium plus Wengers statement that he will be only buying 'star' playerswould tend to suggest that he sees us being in that scenario in the near future. Well next season actually; Edu was is motivated by his Brazil team place ,and if guaranteed a starting place at Arsenal plus more pennies would stay, Fabregas is the stumbling block to those aspirations. Your scenario seems rather dated in it's concept.

Mickey Sloan
March 08, 2005

SWP is better than Freddie. Senderos will be an Arsenal God. We will beat Buyern Weds. Terry and Sol should partner the central defense for England and Rio should play as a holding mid-fielder with Gerrard and Lampard with him. Play Beckham and Downing wide. Rooney/Owen up front... Joe Cole can be sub for Downing or Becks....That is the opinion of a man who thinks we will win 10-0 at some point....

East End Gooner
March 08, 2005

As for up-front this is the last chance for Aliadiere. He has been on the verge of a break-through so many times. The start of the 2001/02 season he looked as if he was going to step up but then took a bad injury. Then there was the Boro game last season when he looked fantastic before the injury. And last Tuesday he looked a class above the other youngsters in technical ability. He is close to the finished product and good as Quincy looks, a fit Aliadiere could be a revelation. But it has to be now and he has to make an impact before the end of the season. Any more injuries or a struggle to find form means we cant rely on him and we will HAVE to go into the market. But get it right and he could be the one we have been looking for. I really think he could make it and he is still very young.

East End Gooner
March 08, 2005

Decaf - I agree centre-back and keeper are prorities but rumours (and who knows) are of a significant budget and our right hand side has been crying out for treatment. The defence made errors against Bayern but, as I said at the time, they were woefully exposed by playing four such attacking players as Pires, Ljungberg, Reyes and Henry in such a tough away fixture. Though SWP is primarily attacking, he can also work MUCH more effectively than a Ljungberg or a Pires in tracking back and tucking inside. The job that Parlour used to do that made us so solid in the late 90s. The problem with having as many "floaters" as we do is that you can look at out line up on anyday and think we are short in almost all areas. The defence is obvious but up front is also an issue as we have only one proper experienced striker. And midfield suffers because of the imbalance that exposes the right.

steve martin
March 08, 2005

Oh well, bit of a tuff one that 233 thingy, so it's really for those who like letting us know how ban our defence is... It's that long since they let a goal in, it's not in Chelsea's league I grant you, Only Southampton, Sheff Utd and Portsmouth, but it should be noted... Might actually be another 10/15 mins if you include Injury time...

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Mee, how do you know it was 'certainly' not linked to money with Edu. I bet it was in part. In a few years I expect Arsenal to be a different club to the one it is now, and still think there is no guarantee whatsover that Fabregas will leave to join Barcelona.

Mee
March 08, 2005

Bernard - Edu said himself that Valencia would represent a ‘dream’ move for him, it certainly was not linked to money. In a wider context, Fabregas will become as sought after as Ronaldinho and Zidane, can you imagine either of those players signing for Arsenal?

Decaf
March 08, 2005

What you say about SWP is perfectly sound, EEG, but sounds a little bit US Martin-ish given that I think that you would concede that our real weakness is further back. Getting a better right-sided player for big bucks would almost certainly strengthen our attack (and even, to a certain extent, our defense), but the opportunity cost would be appalling. Is Kuffour really only 28? Bernard, I withdraw my reference to the right-back position. My point is that there are more urgent weakness than right midfield.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Mee, why do you say it's a basic fact that Edu saw Valencia as an upward career move. It might also be that Valencia were willing to pay him a lot more, and that he would be more certain of a consistent first team place there than at Arsenal. With regards Fabregas, it's a fact that he left Bardelona to join us, and that he's on a long-term contract at Arsenal. I still think you're massively over-estimating the likelihood that he'll be returning there, at any point let alone the next couple of years. I can't guarantee he won't but nor can you that he will.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 08, 2005

Mr Wenger says: "I don't want to put players in front of young players who have shown great potential this season. To put them backwards would be the killer of all the work we've done this season. That's why I have to consider this very carefully and only bring in players who will be real star players and bring something special.". Which of our current “young players” will be compromised by any new recruits? I notice Arsene emphasises “..who WILL be real star players”. I assume his reference to REAL is not directed at REAL MADRID STAR PLAYERS and that he is looking to buy players who are NOT current stars. Citeh fans have consistently confirmed their expectations that Shaun WRIGHT-PHILLIPS is an almost certain arrival. He will strengthen our right side going forward and offer defensive cover as does Freddie in that role. SWP can also enjoy a more central space which will cover/conflict with GILBERTO, BENTLEY & FLAMINI. A VIEIRA-style player (ESSIEN/GERRARD/VAN BOMMEL) will not impact any current future youth stars because we do not appear to have one knocking on that particular door, so cover/replacement for VIEIRA is desperately needed. The left-side departure of EDU and BERGKAMP (poss reduction in games) appears to be covered by CLICHY, COLE, RVP, PIRES, REYES and even LJUNGBERG. Although the loss of BERGKAMP’s style and his not travelling to away European matches may get Mr Wenger to search for or promote our next star playmaker (AIMAR or FABREGAS?). The centre back position is a must and we appear to be awash with offers such as KUFFOUR from Bayern. At 28 years old his arrival could be seen by SENDEROS more as cover for CAMPBELL who appears to be getting fragile as the years go on. Finally we have the keeper problem and I hope Mr Wenger does not hold back on this issue. He must get a keeper who is solid and reliable. I do not care if no one has heard of them, they must catch &/or punch well and be able to make good decisions when under pressure. This last one means CUDUCINI is out. LEHMANN, WRIGHT, ALMUNIA, TAYLOR, SEAMAN (in his old age) have been exposed by poor defensive performances. I keep looking at the goals against column and wince when it shows more than a goal a game. So for me Mr Wenger’s targets are fairly simple. To increase the overall level of 1st team squad (like Chelsea & ManU) by ADDING new players BEFORE the OLD ONES of the Club leave (DB10, VIEIRA, CAMPBELL, EDU, PIRES, LJUNGBERG, LEHMANN) and show the youngsters they will not be left to struggle alone, but more importantly NOT to “put them backwards”. Trust Arsene.

East End Gooner
March 08, 2005

And yes, I have been very vocal about the number of winger come striker come midfielders in our side bit we still haven't sorted the right-hand side and SWP knows exactly what he is. On Senderos, some people's jump to judgement was amazing. Problem for defenders is that it is definitely an art you have to learn. Almost every top defender is significantly better at the end of their career. The ones that show up early tend to have electric pace which helps cover the other weaknesses and many go backwards. Senderos looks like he knows how to defend. Our standards have changed and, as someone who saw Adams' debut and his difficult early years I dont hesitate to say that Senderos shows every bit as much promise. Doesn't mean he will be another Adams but he has the ingredients and needs to play to learn. Adams was hugely advantaged by learning at first team level.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Steve, the number in-between 232 and 234? Good at maths, aren't I. Decaf, we have Lauren, Toure, Hoyte and Eboue who have all played at right back, so I'd say a right sided midfield player was a bigger priority than a right back where we really have only Ljungberg, Fabregas and Bentley who have played there recently, one of whom is seriously injured at the moment and another will be only twelve months from a Bosman in the summer (I think). I am working, of course, on what I think is a fairly safe assumption: Pennant won't be seen in an Arsenal kit again.

Mee
March 08, 2005

European reality check: Ahead of the Bayern match, and notwithstanding an unlikely positive result, I think a touch of realism is called for in assessing our current position in relation to the acqusition, and more importantly, the retention of the best players. My recent contention that Cesc Fabregas would return to Barcelona within the next two seasons has met with almost univeral disagreement and indignation. My argument for suggesting his return is based on the simple premise that he is/will become, one of european football’s biggest talents and yet he currently plays for a club who would struggle for inclusion in any european top ten. The finest european based performers all play within a narrow band of elite Spanish, Italian, English and German clubs. Of the English clubs, Man.U historically are perceived as a successful european club, besides enjoying the title of ‘World’s Richest Club’, Chelsea, who may soon adopt that mantle, can afford to distort the market and attract top mercenaries from home and abroad (AC3?) while Arsenal have neither united’s european glamour nor Chelsea’s financial clout and cannot be considered to be within that elite band which attracts and keeps the best players of which Cesc is a perfect example. They do, however, have two world class players in their ranks to refute my own argument. However, both players, and an additional one in Bergkamp came to the club after relatively unhappy sojourns in foreign leagues. Fabregas does not have this baggage, nor is he likely to be taunted by racist chants from his fellow countrymen in the way that might have influenced Vieira and Henry’s decision to stay with Arsenal. These latter two also seem to enjoy a special relationship with Wenger without which it seems unlikely that they would have stayed. Add in the geographical dimension which suggests that mediterranean players, Reyes being the latest example, do not adapt and aclimatise as well as their northern european counterparts -( It would be far easier for our own Dutch Master, sipping a latte at Tate Modern, overlooking the river to imagine he was sitting in a bar in Amsterdam, than it would be for Fabregas to think that Ikea at Brent Cross had been inspired by Gaudi.) and you have a good argument for thinking that his career at Highbury/AG is likely to be a short one. I wish it were not so, but we have to face the basic facts that someone like Edu, hardly an Arsenal ‘galactico’ saw a move to Valencia as being an upward career move. Before him, Overmars and Petit, although highly valued members of a successful side, also felt, mistakenly as it turned out, a move to what they described as a ‘major european club’ was their most likely route to sustained international recognition and CL success. I am aware that such a general overview as this is difficult to sustain, but in its broadest sense, there are truths here about the status and perception of Arsenal that we need to recognize.

East End Gooner
March 08, 2005

My view on SWP has changed dramatically this season. I always thought he was a decent player but without enough technical ability for a team like ours. That was wrong. I have watched him a number of times this season and he is a fantastic player in all areas. His passing, awareness and control has come on hugely and he is every bit as dangerous on the ball as a Rooney. Those who are talking about his size haven't watched him play enough. Has anyone seen him bullied out of a game? It doesn't happen. He is tougher than ANY of our midgets. He can put his foot in and is very hard to shake off the ball. The "quoted" £25m is steep but I very much doubt he would cost that much and he would definitely enhance our squad. I think the World of Reyes' ability but he has been a let down for most of this season. SWP would have been a MUCH more effective asset. His step dad wasn't no giant either.

steve martin
March 08, 2005

Bernard, this ones just a hunch... Anyone know what significance of 233...

Decaf
March 08, 2005

SWP is not only 'not big', he is in the twilight winger/whatever zone where Wenger seems to wander of late. He is not a centreback, and rightback, a goalkeeper, or (I'd guess) a Bergy replacement, so thinking about SWP does seem a dangerous misallocation of mental resources.

Bernard
March 08, 2005

Steve, is that just a hunch (albeit based on your hopes) or 'inside' information?

Exiled In Newcastle
March 08, 2005

Ongoing problems prevented me getting down Saturday so I hope no one minds me being as up to date as ever and commenting on the Sheffield game since I got to that one. Sheffield as a club are the imageof their manager, Colin. I've never seen such a snide club. A couple of things that I haven't seen mentioned were firstly, ballboys. They had one ball boy on each side of the pitch (in whichever half the ywere attacking) half with a towel keeping a ball clean (and warm?) which was thrown to their players for long throws but not ours. Also at half time in extra time (when there's meant to be an immediate turn around) their bench rushed the pitch with drinks for their players and ignored the officials ushering them off. Cole (I think) tried to grab a bottle and had it whipped off him. As for the match, may as well have turned up at half time. Lupoli appeared to be almost shaking with nerves, and despite his 45 not going too well he was making some superb runs across their back four and pulling them everywhere. Maybe if he'd been hit with a few early balls things may have been different for him. Paddy was the Paddy we want. I think the last hour was played in their half an Paddy was at the start of everything. Cesc - wow. As an aside I had a spare so took the girl I was staying with's other half. He's born/bred Sheffield but not a team supporting football fan, prefering to support the underdogs (althoug he goes to 10-20 games a season). By half way through the second half he was as ranting a Gooner as me! From a 'neutral' point of view he was up and down berating the officials for their blatant anti-Arsenal bias. He had some views of Arsenal before the game, but actually watching us (without commentators) totally changed his views to the extent that he has promised to watch games on tv with the sound off in future so he can make his own mind up. And in the way only football fans can, when our winning penalty went in he was bouncing up and down hugging strangers. Think another Gooner has joined the ranks. Now, more topical, Bayern. I can get down to that one and can't wait to watch us knock them out. I can see this ending up with us giving them a right spanking. Philosophy - I think it was Michael Bentine who described it as 'The ability to waffle enlessly and let the tea go cold'.

Cannon Balls
March 08, 2005

Wenger gets a lot of stick for not buying English players, but when you look at the ludicrous price tags attached to them, is it any wonder?. If United win nothing this season, which after Saturdays result, and their previous CL one there must be a distinct possibility about, then will Fergusons £30million spent on Rooney look justified?. Or shown up to be the panic buy that it was ?, like Saha, who i see is yet again out injured, along with G. Neville for the coming game away at Milan.

DHD
March 08, 2005

Sorry - I meant there’s no comparison between SWP and Diego Maradonna. Btw, there are still shrines to him in the back streets of Naples.

steve martin
March 08, 2005

Topic for today, football related... More so for those with kids... Does Football make your kids swear... Always footballs fault? or is it just the society we live in... My kid id four this month, and he has never siad a swear word, even by accident and that is having a father who was at times Mr Foulmouth when either we were playing Spurs, Man Utd or Alan Shearer was on show...

DHD
March 08, 2005

Juliano - Maradonna was indeed short but he was built like the proverbial brick sh*thouse. He was all but impossible to knock off the ball. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a stronger player. There’s no comparison between SWP and DG. Chalk and cheese.

steve martin
March 08, 2005

SWP, will never wear an Arsenal shirt... Yes! Arsene says he rates him, but then he says that about a lot of English players, No, he will never been seen playing for Arsenal, I for one am well glad about that...

Bernard
March 07, 2005

Or not big, like ... Lee Chapman?

goonerguru
March 07, 2005

DHD,being one of the diminutive brigade I can confirm that your last statement is spot on.Under Wenger we nearly always had a team of giants,but with the likes of Cesc,Reyes,Flammini,Freddie etc it dosen't feel like that any more and I believe that has added to our downfall this year,that is not to say they are not good players,because they are but because of there size they are not going to win as many 50/50's in the air as a taller guy,I dont think SWP would be a great asset in that department.

Juliano
March 07, 2005

DHD-You mean he is small like, let's say, Diego Maradona?

DHD
March 07, 2005

Goonerguru – agree again. Its SWP’s size that gives me more concerns than anything else. I know he scored a cracking goal against us at THOF bit it came as a real shock to me when I saw just how small SWP actually is. He is truly a midget in comparison to PV4 whilst even the likes of FL8 and Cesc make him look tiny. Clearly physical stature isn’t necessarily the most important attribute but he’d have to have some phenomenal compensating qualities if he’s to compete effectively at the highest level; I'm not sure hard work and speed are enough. I don’t say he’s not a good player, indeed he may be a very good player, but he’s not a £25m player, nor anywhere close imo. To borrow some boxing parlance, a good big ‘un always beats a good small ‘un.

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

Decaf,without getting to be too 'Phil 'O Prattic' about it, (aah!Bisto!) or academic about it i was replying to your point that you fancied Manures chances more than ours. You could be right in that the results work out that way of course, but on the laws of probability in two tricky ties our chance must be better than Manures. So your rather philosophic view is based not on any logic, but on your own opinion, even should it prove to be correct. And 'Twats' one that it is impossible for us to go through is nonsense, like all the garbage that he posts under his various inane, 'nom 'd plumes', is. If ever there was a case for legal euthanasia, this 'Twat' is it!.

Gooner7
March 07, 2005

I would like to see Qunicy start with Henry tomorrow. This kid has guts and showed he could run at defenders, no matter who. If Wenger could psyche him up properly, he might be the discovery of the season. With two running men, BM would have to watch out for both, rather than just Henry. Might sound naive right now, but I just have better faith with him than Reyes or Bergkamp. reyes falls too easily, and always looks for the foul. Bergkamp needs space and time to find the player. And in high profile matches, he usually gets upended more than he could find the men. My line-up would be Alumnia (because Lehmann might try too hard to compensate for his errors of the first leg). Clichy (LB), Senderos and toure (CB), Lauren (RB), Cole (so he could link better with the front, plus he can take shots at goal - WE NEED THAT TO HAPPEN MORE), Vieira and Cesc (CM), Lundberg (RM), Henry & Quincy. This team has better fluidity, as shown in the Portsmouth game. I know many would point out that this is BM, not Portsmouth, but what have we got to lose? Besides, being cautious against a cautious BM nullifies the game. It would be dull, and imagine the panic when BM should sneak a goal. I would say to play this faster team for the second leg.

goonerguru
March 07, 2005

DHD,thanks I was beginning to think I was the only person in the world that was not that impressed with him,his game is based on hard work and pace,I am not saying he is a bad player but just not good enough for the team I support and I hope Wenger feels the same way.We have enough titchy little buggers in the squad at the moment and I hope that we add quality players who are 6 feet plus,which is why I wouldn't go for Emre either.

DHD
March 07, 2005

Goonerguru – well said. I suspect it’s a bit of a heresy hereabouts but I’ve never been convinced by SWP either – certainly not at £25m anyway.

Mee
March 07, 2005

Was it Gore Vidal who said that ‘it is not enough to succeed - others must fail’ I always feel like that with regard to the results. An Arsenal win is vital of course, but deep satisfaction only comes from others losing as well, notably Spurs, Man U, Liverpool and Chelsea. In fact I sometimes wish on a saturday that it were possible for everyone to lose except Arsenal, if you see what I mean.

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

Alright, Phil, your name is "Cannon Balls is a Dumb Twat". Can i just call you - TWAT - for short ??? - says it all really !!!

goonerguru
March 07, 2005

Niall,I must be one of the few people on here that isn't a big fan of SWP,he's a good player but he is nowhere near world class or even International class yet,well not in my book he isn't.If we were to sign him for anything like the figure's you have mentioned I would consider that to be a complete waste of money.As you say there are far better players out there for that sort of dosh and I for one hope we steer well clear of Man City in the summer.

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

It amazes me how only certain scenarios in the coming CL ties are according to some possible .We can't win our tie, but Manure can win theirs is one. Both games are tricky, but on the balance of probability, i still if i had to put money on it go for us at home against BM, who minus Roy Makaay will be less of a goal threat at Highbury, than us plus Henry on their case. On the other hand RVN is bang out of sorts and since his return to the side Manure have looked like they did before he was injured - mediocre. He in fact is a liability to them, but old red nose the drunken jock, stubborn to the end will play him. Anybody who thinks that Manure will win should go and have a big-bet on them and put their money where their mouth is, i backed Barca and Milan in a double last week after predicticting that they would win. The draw looks the more likely result in the Chav's game, Barca not needing to win. But if Mourinho gets desperate, and throws caution to the wind,Barca could pick them off on the break. So i am keeping my money in my pocket on that one.

Cannon Balls is a dumb twat
March 07, 2005

As if to reinforce his complete idiocy, Cannon Balls claims I am Phil the Gooner. Prick!

Niall
March 07, 2005

Gonnerguru - I completely agree with you bud, I'm only thinking of alternatives for RM if Man City are going to demand £20-£25m for SWP which, although he is undoubtably a talented player is a fee at the very top end of the market. Joaquin is supposedly available for around the same price and if you are talking players for that money, then he would be my choice and I'm basing that on seeing the pace he had against England when he burned off Cole down the England left. Not sure we are adequately covered in that position with talent anyway. Unless Quincy gets shifted to the right, or he begins to play Cesc there. I'd suggest that neither of them are naturals for there either.

Danger
March 07, 2005

Cannon Balls, dont also forget that Zidane was linked with Spurs and when asked directly if he fancied a move to Hotspurs he repied " Tottenham Who?"

goonerguru
March 07, 2005

Niall,it is good to hear Wenger talking of only buying star players in the summer but lets hope they are not of the quality of GVB,Jeffers,Inamoto and Wright who in my opinion were considered to be big players but in poor teams.I quite like Routledge as well but is he any better than some of the youngsters we already have coming through the ranks,probably not and I couldn't see him adding any real strength to the team at the moment.I think we have enough talent at Highbury for the future what we need now is quality players that can come straight into the team and strengthen the areas we are weak in.Having said that,if a talented young player is out there and available I suspect Wenger could not resist the temptation to go and get him.

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

By the way Phil stop posting inane things on here and then coming on and claiming i posted them. You know what they say about people who talk to themselves.

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

Oh Dear,Phil the Spud, what do you mean 'we'?. I was not aware that Spuds were playing BM in the CL. And, er..wot 'appens like if AC score 2 against Manure first,or are only the drunken jocks whingers and posers allowed to score ?, get back to sleep you prat. Martin Jol was asked after that beating by relegation candidates Saints what TV Show would you liken to your job at Spuds. He replied , Mission Impossible!!!. Sounds like Fergusons one on tuesday night in Milan, then you did tip him to win the CL this season, and Chelsea to finish fourth in the league!!. Don't give up that day job Bisto, you would never earn a crust trying to live on your wits, you don't have any!!.

Mee
March 07, 2005

Niall, I agree with you about Routledge, he’s looked impressive for a couple of seasons now. Spurs seem likely to sign him however. We seem to have a blind-spot for players who are close to home and yet Sansom & Wright were both Palace imports. Perhaps Routledge needs to sign for River Plate or Boca Juniors first - then it will be legitimate to pay over the odds for him.

Niall
March 07, 2005

Very encouraging to hear the reports of Wenger having loadsamoney and only after star players. However, SWP is a very good player but may be costing around £20-25m which is way way too much money for him imo. Has anyone else been impressed with Wayne Routledge at Crystal Palace? I thought he had a very good game at Highbury (despite Palace losing 5-1) and on MOTD I saw him leaving Heinze on his arse, totally skinning him - which not many players have done this season as Heinze would be my choice for LB of the season. Supposed to be a tad inconsistent, Routledge that is, but he's out of contract in the summer and obviously has potential.

steve gleiber
March 07, 2005

can i have your views on aliadiere please.

Cannon Balls is a dumb twat
March 07, 2005

Cannon Balls, are you totally retarded? Maybe it is easier for us to score two at home against BM than it is for United to score two in Milan. But not only is it impossible to see us scoring these goals AND keeping a clean sheet against BM, ManUtd only need one goal for extra time or penalties. However, I shouldn't be surprised, you're the same idiot who claimed that Owusu-Abeyie would be better than Arjen Robben

Decaf
March 07, 2005

Another interesting connundrum for the philosophers: will it be easier for Manure to score 2 at Milan or for Bayern to score 2 at highbury, or for Chocolate Gooner to score at all in any sense, or even to get a corner?

Decaf
March 07, 2005

Cannon, I don't dispute that scoring 2 away at milan is tougher than scoring 2 at home to Bayern. Is your point entirely academic (this is a matter of great academic interest, and we could philosophise about it with Chocolate for weeks), or does it somehow relate to this week's games? If the latter, I fail to grasp your point.

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

Decaf,your missing the point even Bisto with his limited rodent like intelligenge could grasp.The point being that scoring two goals away to AC Milan is harder than scoring two at home to BM. We at least scored one away to BM, Manure failed to score any at home to ACM, and were beaten 1-0. With Horseface doing his Robbie Keane impersonation, missing sitters, and Rooney running around like an enraged bull in a China shop, wound up by the slightest provacation, he looks like a red-card waiting to happen,the ref over there will not put up with his foul abuse like they do in England,it's not looking that promising for the drunken jock ,throw in a dodgy GK or two,and expresso is being served up in Milan. I offer the following from this mornings Mirror, by Andrew Dillon, on the game at Palace: "Fergusons red nose was redder than ever ,and not in support of Comic Relief. Once again he and his team showed why they are the most despised in England. Whinging, moaning, snarling, from the 15th minute of the first half the Premierships leading prima-donnas were at it hounding the referee". Also Rooney up to his tricks again diving for a penalty , he seems to think tha twhen things are not going Manures way, all he has to do is run into the box throw himself down, and one is awarded. Well at OT they are, but normal rules aply elsewhere. Then surprise, surprise, after the 4 minutes of 'Fergie Time' that had been added on , had been played, Fergie wanted more!. He seems to think that matches should continue until Manure score, on saturdays evidence they would still be playing!. 2-0, to ACM.

tom
March 07, 2005

Bruce - dunno if this has been answered for you yet but I can give you 7:78 - Ipswich 3 WBA 181 - Spuds 3 Wolves 082 - QPR 1 WBA 083 - Brighton 2 Sheff Wed 184 - Everton 1 Soton 092 - Liverpool 1 Portsmouth 197 - Chelsea 3 Wimbledon 0

Gorgias
March 07, 2005

Three questions a) What exactly do we need SWP? Are we short of wingers? b) Why didn't RvP deserve to booed? He was an E*G and needs whatever Wenger (hopefully) said to him reinforced. Maybe part of our problem is that without the likes of Keown and Adams, there is no one to give uppity young-'uns a good nutting. c) why has history given me such a bad name? Not fair!

Decaf
March 07, 2005

Cannon, Bisto's using your handle again? Surely the original Cannonballs would know that at 2-1 win will do it for Manure, and even a 1-0 will get them to parity? That seems less difficult than trying to get 2 with the horrible knowlege that Bayern scoring will ruin the party more rapidly than the entrance of a swarm of wasp or chocolate gooner; and Bayern scoring 2 (which seems somehow a very likely number) will mean we need 5! Hopefully TH's form, Bergy back and the absence of a couple of key Bayern player give us a lifeline. Choc, if you are not adopting ridiculously extreme positions, there is nothing for us to argue about. I'm not going to attempt to define Sophism. a) I know little about it; b) what I gather suggests that it is not a discrete body of thought. Failing to grasp this is surely the point that is causing you so much nuance on this subject.

DHD
March 07, 2005

Barry - RvP wasn’t booed but he got the sort of welcome you'd reserve for a son who’s just crashed the family car. And if you think he was unlucky to get sent off against Soton, you need to grow up as well.

Barry
March 07, 2005

Was Van Persie booed on Saturday or something? If he was, it's totally out of order. Booing one of your own is inexcusable. The guy was unlucky to be sent off in any case - he was silly, yes, but still unlucky. What he needed on Saturday was some support. What a bunch of muppets!

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

American, an early goal and a late one i guess would be the best scenario. If we went three up in twenty minutes we would still need to keep a clean sheet to prevent extra time. We have to score first though. I still rather us than Manure needing to beat AC Milan away 2-0, Shev'y is still out, but Manure have a serious problem GK wise with neither Carol or Howard looking convincing. Glazer is waiting for it all to go pearshaped to finalize his take-over ,boy is this guy persistant!. The days of £29 match-tickets that someone posted about will vanish faster than Fegusons smile when the ref won't add on another 5 minutes of extra time.

old man of hoy
March 07, 2005

I think Zola scored a great goal for Chrelsea in a semi at Highbury - was it 1997? Maurice and Estelle were not having a good sex life. After yet another listless love making session, Maurice decided to confront Estelle. "How come you never tell me or indicate when you have an orgasm?" Estelle looked at Maurice with contempt and replied, "You're never home."

AmericanGooner
March 07, 2005

Its not me in disquise asking those Exiled! ; )

Bruce Smith
highbury@brucesmith.org.uk
March 07, 2005

Can anybody tell me what the ten FA Cup Semi-Finals to be staged at Highbury were?

AmericanGooner
March 07, 2005

CB, which scenario would be better for us. We score an early goal, up 1-0 and are chasing the 2nd goal the rest of the game as BM packs it in and plays for a 1-0 win or hope for a counter or its nil nil at the half and we score the first goal in the 50th or 60th minute and possibly send BM into a panic? If we score that 2nd goal in the 70th or 80th minute it may not give BM enough time to score their first. **** I am just hoping for a commitment like we saw in Milan. I am obviously hoping for Chelsea and Man Yoo to lose. Man Yoo will obviously come out and attack from the onset. If they score early it gets interesting. It will force Milan to come out. Is Schevchenko still out? Inzaghi is back and went the whole 90 this weekend and they also have Tomasson who will give problems (I'm not counting on Crespo). It will be interesting to see a full out attack Chelsea side. Again, an early goal and this leg is interesting.

brian
March 07, 2005

Just checked out the prices for club level at emirates stadium.prices roughly £3000 - £5000 a season.Tickets at man yoo are roughly £29 per game.Ill be booking during the week.

david.d
March 07, 2005

great win yesterday , we needed it especially with utd dropping points as well. lets hope thierry can continue against bayern and help us go through though im just going with the flow and not getting too confident or excited that we will turn it around. i just hope the boys pleasantly surprise us. the near tears and frustration after chelsea beat us last season at highbury is something i dont want to feel again in a hurry. great to see quincy get a run out. good to see arsene give him a chance. with senderos flamini cesc quincy clichy and hopefully van persie if he calms himself down the future is very bright. the more i see of ashley cole and his emergence as a true world class player coming to the fore the more it makes me angry at the thought of him going to chelsea. FOR F**KS SAKE WE ARE ARSENAL FOOTBALL CLUB!!! we are not chelsea's feeder club. why sell one of our best players to the club arsene rightly describes as artificial. im not saying match chelsea's wage offer because i honestly dont think thats what ash wants. parity or near parity with henry viera and campbell and im sure he will stay. why cannot we keep cole AND clichy... arsene's assertion that he will only bring in real special quality and that he will use the money intelligently indicates that there IS money to spend. im very excited as to who will come in but i trust arsene to do the right thing. COME ON ARSENAL!!!

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

American,with all that money being made available to Wenger he should be able to sort out the AC3 situation, after all money is what it's about. We need though to concentrate on what still remains of this season rather than speculating on next, we will be in danger of sounding like Spuds supporters, banging on about what players they will get. and what they are going to do,blah,blah,blah; Pele, Maradona, Cruff, Bergkamp, Real Ron, are just a smittering of the great that have allegedly over the decades been on their way to the, 'Lane That Time Forgot', where supporters bearing a striking resemblance to neanderthal man still exist, chanting their strange tribal songs. None ever made it though. It's back to the walls stuff Wednsday nightagainst BM and an early goal could set us up for the win we need. Keeping a clean sheet is the problem 3-1 and it's extra time. Whatever, at least we are in the CL every year and not like pathetic Spuds cheering on foreign sides. Tossers. It's not easy for any of our EPL sides, even Liverpool if they concede the first goal. We will know the results of the Chelsea and Manure games anyway, i am expecting on what i have seen of them that they will both get knocked out. Both are chasing the game and up against cunning opponents who will keep their shape. I can't see Manure winning 2-0, more like losing by that score and Chelsea have a chance like us if they score first, but are up against better opposition, Barca will not allow the space for Chelsea to launch their counters with Duff, and the Chav's in fact could well find themselves on the receiving end of a lightening quick break by Barca who are no slouches at it, and the away game will suit them more than having had to attack at home.

old man of hoy
March 07, 2005

Well done the women - thanks for bringing yet more silverware to Highbury. To plagiarise the latest Tory Party campaign billboards - "When the Arsenal Ladies Goalie was presented with the Player of the Season prior to the game on Saturday Were You Thinking What I was Thinking?" Melvyn was a very likeable person and his quick wittedness had served him well in business – he was now a financial director in the City. One day his wife Rebecca was shopping close by his office and decided to pay him a surprise visit. But when she got there and opened his door, she was shocked to find him sitting at his desk with his secretary in his lap. Melvyn looked up at her and without hesitating dictated: - ”And in conclusion, gentlemen, whether we have budget cuts or not, there is absolutely no way I can continue to run my office effectively with just one desk and chair.”

old man of hoy
March 07, 2005

Can anyone gove me the scores against Manchester United in 2005/6 season?

H. G. Wells
March 07, 2005

Arsenal won 2-1.

goonerguru
March 07, 2005

PA,the score against MU on April 15th 1939 was 2-1 to the Arsenal,Crayston and Drake scored the goals.

PA
March 07, 2005

can anyone give me the score arsenal v man u 15th. april 1939

AmericanGooner
March 07, 2005

I still have a gut feeling Cole is going nowhere. Perhaps wishful thinking but I just have a feeling. **** Steve Martin, totally agree about Johnson@Chelsea. His reaction seemed totally unwarranted. I think he was more upset about Palace's Johnson patting him on the head. We had the game here and they replayed it and he seemed to have gotten upset at the pat on the head and the pat wasn't anything malicious, just a sportsmanlike pat. **** Given their age and inexperience, I think some of us here are too quick to write off some of the youth. We've all been a little spoiled by the level of football. Senderos, Clichy, Flamini, van Persie and the rest aren't going to light the PL on fire from the first game. They wil all need minutes and time to settle in. How much games is debatable but some of us are looking for Maldini and Carlos or Cryuff in our players from their first kick. Totally unreasonable.

Romford Gooner
March 07, 2005

Totally agree about Clichy and I'm pretty sure he'll be 1st choice next season once Cole goes to Chelsea. Would love to see the pair link up for the next few years down the left side but I fear it won't happen. I suggested Owen not only because the 2nd striker isn't scoring enough goals at present but that he would offer something different particularly in Europe. We've become a little predictable and I feel very few sides would cope with us if we mix it up a bit. Aliadiere is very injury prone and I don't see any long term future for him despite his many fans on this forum. Basically I feel the strategy of relying on 1 out and out forward is coming to a close or at least I hope it is.

Martin Jol. Interview.
March 07, 2005

Q.Which other manager do you think as got less chance of winning something this season than you. MJ. Brian Clough he's dead. Q. Can you see Tottenham winning the Premier Leauge in the near future. MJ. Yes there is a chance if they get a 40 point start and play all of their games at home and the opposition are not permitted to use a goal-keeper. Q. It's rumoured that your off to Ajax in the summer is that true. MJ. No comment. Q. Your obviously firmly committed to Tottenham. MJ. Of course. Q. Many opponents make fun of your fat round body and bald head.Do you do any exercise. MJ. Yes this morning i stayed in bed for an extra two hours. Q. Your from Holland is it harder living in England. MJ. yes it's like being in a different country. Q.You have a laid back nonchalant whats the hurry attitude Martin. MJ. Well hard work never killed anyone so why should i be the first. Q. Tottenham have won nothing for years. Will you be disappointed if you dont win anything with them. MJ. Hey why spoil a good thing. Q. You and Frank Arnesen are said to not get along. What's the problem. MJ. He insists on talking at the same time as me when i am giving the team talk.The players say they can't understand.It's double dutch to them. Thank you Martin.

DaveM
March 07, 2005

I can't see Wenger changing formation from 4-4-2. He didn't do it against SU when it was the obvious choice given our shortage of strikers. He's gone on record time and time again saying he likes two men up front rather than 5 in midfield. So, if we bought Owen (which hopefully we won't) then he'd play up front with Henry. We'd then be dealing with a change of emphasis because we'd have one less creative player. You could play Cesc in central midfield and SWP wide right. Buying SWP and Owen does make some sense. However, we're prolific scorers, and the only reason to buy Owen is because we don't score enough against well organised sides who defend deep. To start scoring these goals we need to get to the byline more and put crosses in. But, if we do this then we'd probably start scoring more anyway, even with existing strikers like VP and Aliadiere (who I hope will get some opportunities for the remainder of the season because he's a very complete modern striker). So, SWP yes, Owen no. In any case, we'll have to change our style slightly to succeed in Europe, and it will be interesting to see if Wenger does it. I can't see us keeping Clichy and Cole for much longer, unless we convert Cole into a left-sided midfielder permanently. A midfield of SWP, Cesc, Vieira and Cole for instance might work. The more likely outcome is Cole will go to Chelsea and we'll solve our goal-keeping problem. Clichy is now too good to be kept as a reserve left-back. He needs to play regularly.

Romford Gooner
March 07, 2005

I too am starting to think about the summer and who we'll buy especially as we now have real money to spend. Heard various rumours about Cudicini joing us on a Bosman in the summer if they aren't true then i would like to see us go for Shay Given. Defence wise I think Sami Kuffour from Bayern would be a good Bosman signing. Would also like to see us try to sign a top class centre half from serie A as those buggers know how to defend, no names in particular though Chivu might leave Roma?? Don't think we'll go for Essien as we'll have 4 quality CM's even if Edu leaves. I think we should go for SWP big time as I think he would be a great signing. I'd like to see us bring Owen to THOF especially if as I expect Reyes is going home due to homesickness/incompatability with Henry etc. On players leaving at least 2 of Lehmann/Almunia/Taylor will leave preferably all 3 of them as none of them are good enough. I think Cygan might go if a top quality centre half comes in as I expect he'll see the writing on the wall. I think Pires's time could also be coming to a close as he's been sussed by oppostion teams who rough him up early and he's hardly started any games for us over the last few months. I think Edu will leave and I thimk Wenger might realise Van Persie is more trouble than he's worth.

Van Percy
March 07, 2005

So Van Persie screwed up in the game against Southampton, and was deservedly reprimanded for it by AW. But I think the reception he got when he came on against Portsmouth was pathetic. Don't think it would help any young player to know that the home fans are not 100% behind him. Hope VP gets better treatment from the fans in the next game.

Steve Martin
March 07, 2005

It's a funny old season, not one Man Utd player or Chelsea player has reached 10 goals in the prem this season, only TH14, Defoe and Johnson have reached more than 10...

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

With all this money to spend and a promise of quality arriving in the summer i feel like a 5 year old waiting for santa.Ive got the feeling next seson will be our year in the CL.Our last season at highbury winning the CL will be absolutely brilliant.Arsene means business and he ll show the drunken jocks whos boss.

Cannon Balls
March 07, 2005

If we can sell Ashley Cole to chelscum for 30 million plus the 30 million AW has to spend that makes it around 50-60 million and if its spent on quality i think we will be a force in europe going into the Emirates Stadium.I cant wait for the summer now to see who we bring in.

Nico
March 07, 2005

Thought it worth copying Cruff's quotes more fully. 'At half time [against Barca, 1-0 to chelscum] I heard how some people were pointing out Chelsea's great defensive organisation. So you spend millions and millions of euro's to make your team a defensive rock and hope that a moment of quality up front will end up giving you a win. What do we want? Results ahead of everything else? If that's the case, you become like Chelsea and other clubs or national teams, like Greece in the last European Championships [ouch] - who cling to the idea that the end justifies the means [yeah but Greece doesn't have Abro's resources, Johann - point taken though, it weren't pretty]. If you don't give your people what they want, then they will stop coming to the stadium. It's as simple as that. In Italy you see empty seats in the grandstands and nobody sounds the alarm. If Chelsea don't turn their mean choice of playing style into a lot of titles, Mourinho will last four days there. Maybe not literally four days, but if there are one or two more seasons playing the same way and without winning much, his public will end up bored with it. I understand that over there they believe fervently in him, and I understand why. When you have gone 50 years without winning the league, any change of style, whatever it is, is welcome at first.' ........ Gaz, I think you may be right about the tactical variety at Wenger's disposal which could result from a swoop for the likes of Owen and SWP. You can play 4-5-1 if necessary, which can easily be converted to 4-3-3 when you're wide midfielders can morph easily into wingers/forwards. I believe you may also be right about the potential for Fabregas to take on Dennis' playmaking role in an advanced central midfield position (hole? Yuck!), with two out of Vieira, Flamini and Gilberto behind him. Wenger's outburst the other day when dealing with a journo asking him about our lack of Plan B hit a raw nerve and I predict he'll be adding to resources in the summer with this very much in mind. Finally, we definitely need a keeper who can instil confidence in his defense, something repeatedly said on here, and a new cb is a must. I can definitely see Senderos as being a first choice cb next season, which regrettably may leave Kolo as a squad memeber, as you also said.... Well, that's me lot for now folks, except to wish you all a nice Monday and Tuesday, an even nicer Wednesaday, a speedy recovery from your hangovers on Thursday and Friday, a brilliant Saturday and a beautiful Sunday thinking about the week before and the mouthwatering months ahead!

Gunner Gun U Down
March 07, 2005

yeh according to rumours planetfootball we could well be signin owen and phillips but also according to tribalfootball if the cole deal gets the go ahead, which i hope it doesnt, then arsenal would want cudicini as a part of the deal. i think we should go for cudicini. but we should buy him rather then from a deal. If owen doesnt come then i hope torres is a target, does anyone know how much he would cost?

bernie
March 07, 2005

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=260884&cpid=22&CLID=3&lid=&title=Kuffour+reveals+Gunners+wish&channel=Premiership

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

233, whats the significance...

North Bank Mural
March 06, 2005

Arsenal could get silverware today in Women's League Cup!! I can't take it seriously and sadly I am looking at the "totty" factor above ability!!! I may be missing something.....

true arsenal boy
March 06, 2005

Loved Cruyff's quotes saying about how watching Chelsea play makes him "loathe " foootball. Good lad

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 06, 2005

Good morning all. Great win for the lads yesterday with TH14 proving once again what a fantastic player he is. We're very lucky to not only have one of the worlds great players, but a player who's love for our Club is remarkable in an era where money talks and players move from Club to Club with no sense of loyalty to supporters. When asked about my favorite Arsenal player of all time I always say TA6, but TH14 is getting mighty close to him and by the time his career with us is finally over he'll be chalenging, and maybe even beating big Tone for my favorites player accolade. Watched the whole game on Sky and was pleased to see Senderos carrying on from Tuesday. One or two little errors (a'la TA6 at that age), but I can see the makings of a pretty good player here. Glad to hear Flamini getting a lot of praise too. This guys well impressed me and I think we all forget how young he is. I cant deny I'm one of those advocating Kolo for right-back. I have to admit though that one of my reasons for wanting this switch is more to do with liking him so much as a person (nice guy, allways gives 100%), that I want a place for him in the side. I dont believe he's good enough for centre-half so I'm hoping he can make the right-back spot his own. If not, and a lot of you dont seem to think he can, then I cant see a regular spot for him in this side although he'll remain a very important squad member. Will talk about Wednesday later on in the week but for now I want to talk about the Sunday papers, and some of the crap thats in it! The NOTW has an unbelievably stupid link to a certain Ronaldinho!! Apparently we have 60m to spend in the summer and we've watched him on a number of times (like you'd need to 'watch' him?), and wont be put off by a 45m price tag!!! I cant believe that a journo (Matt Drisoll) has actually put a name to this garbage! Theres also a stupid story linking Roy Caroll as our new keeper. The article says we've identified him to take over as our no 1, and then goes on to outline how he's been axed at utd due to too many errors!!! How stupid of me-its so obvious why we want him! As for the 60m I hope that bit is true (I wish the Ronaldinho story was true too!), and theres also another link to SWP. Was thinking about this earlier and for the first time the Michael Owen signing, if true, seemed to make a little sense. SWP is a completely different type of player to FL8 and if he signs will add something different on the right-hand side. He'll get to the bye-line more regulary and balls will be cut back right into the area Owen operates. Henry operates mainly on the left so there should be space for him and Owen. Addmitedly we lose the guile of DB10, but in SWP we'll be far more direct than we have been down the right-hand side. Theres also the fact that Cesc will possibly operate next to PV4 more regulary and provide some of the play-making missing from not playing DB10. Theres also the added bonus that both these players are English of course with those new directives looming. The NOTW also reckons that if AC3 does go to chelscum we could get nearly 20m and Cuducini. I love AC3 but Clicheys getting better and better. I dont realy want to lose him but I think this could realy happen. All in all this summers shaping up to be very very interesting. The last two summers have been of never-ending rumours but no signings. Got a feeling this ones going to be very different-well I hope so at least! Come on Arsenal

North Bank Mural
March 06, 2005

Simon, what if?? Bit of a waste of time wondering buddy, we all know what the problems have been this season, we have to hope that AW addresses them in the close season. Senderos is doing well but he is young and inexperienced, can he produce it 20-30 games on the bounce? However you look at it, Lehmann and Almunia are not good enough. I have reservations about Sol Campbell because a) He hasn't had a great season although we do miss his ability however, he isn't a great leader. b) Is he ever going to regain 100% fitness? AW qouted in the press slating Chelc for "buying" the title, why get involved in all that? Comes across as petty jealousy and shouldn't he really be channeling his efforts into the remains of our season? Whatever you think of CFC/Roman/Hose A, they have gained the points required to win the league and that arrogant, surly git Hose A still had to get the circus to perform, which he has, albeit they make pretty tedious viewing. We have to be positive re Weds but it is a tall order, providing they have a good go it is possible but keeping a clean sheet will mean a great effort. If it doesn't go our way I expect the "AW must go " brigade to raise it's ill informed head. Keep the faith.

true arsenal boy
March 06, 2005

We should go for Frey. He's apparently leaving Parma and their broke so we may even get him for less than usual. I expect they'll be more than one club in for him though, he's quality.

simon
March 06, 2005

As much as Senderos is improving I still fear the worst against Bayern. Pompey managed to put in 3 or 4 decent crosses yesterday and we looked all over the place dealing with them. Without Sol, we look desperately in need of someone to take charge at set pieces, really to make the ball their own. Ok, so no Makaay. However, they still have real quality at putting balls in whether from crosses or set pieces even without Scholl. They still have Pizarro ang Ballack back who are all very dangerous in the air. I can see us getting the 2 goals required but I cannot see us keeping a clean sheet. I think the best we'll do is a score draw. You could see Toure yesterday wondering where Lehmann was as he was forced to head out for a corner. The expression on his face said it all. He had no idea if the keeper was coming for the ball. The defence have no faith in Lehmann and he has no faith in them. So it means sometimes he comes flying out unnecessarily and other times when the defence need him to come and claim he's nowhere to be seen. ***Bayern aren't a great side but showed what can be acheived with good organisation. We didnt have a kick going forwards in Munich. Of course I hope we'll do it but I think we need an early goal and the crowd behind the team.

simon
March 06, 2005

Good news that Wenger has said in the summer he'll only buy star names. Think thats what most of us wanted to hear. We have enough promising young players coming through to make the sqaud strong but in order to challenge for the top trophies we've been lacking real quality in 2-3 positions. I think with a quality centre half and goalkeeper, this season could have been a lot different. ***Even with our 4 defeats, if we'd beaten Soton twice, West Brom and Palace we'd only be 4-5 points behind. And thats where the pressure can have an effect. Chelsea really aren't under any pressure so are very unlikely to drop points against the bottom clubs with their defence. **** have to say they won't throw it away. The seasons where Utd chased us and Newcastle down and where we chased down Utd began with big leads but were already well on the way to being erased by March/April. The 12 point leads were all in January time and had been greatly reduced by this stage of the season.****

true arsenal boy
March 06, 2005

Steve - Absolutely right. As usual, the letter of the law is only applied to us. How many times did Rooney swear and show visible dissent towards the ref, (supposedly an automatic yellow) Then compounded by atrocious dives from Rooney and Van Nistelrooy. What Johns on did really shouldn't be a red but we got six games for far less.

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

I wonder how many Arsenal supporters would know what happended in the Chelsea game having watched BBC Match of the day... Johnson, clearly pushes a Norwich player, much worse than anything DB10 did last week and just a bad as Reyes, yet both matches on BBC and BBC decide to say nothing about Johnson... How the ref could leave him on after seeing and hearing what happened in our game against Sheff Utd is beyond me... Another case of Refs getting it totally wrong and consistency going right out of the window...

Classic Cannon Balls
March 06, 2005

Jol will be on that plane and gone at the seasons end faster than a rat disappearing down a Glasgow sewer. Something you are yourself well acquinted with of course.

tom
March 06, 2005

Was also at the game today and can only endorse what has been said about Senderos. Very encouraging, knows how to defend, gets better with every game. Also thought that Quincy was very tidy for an 18 year old. Even if we do not win a trophy I think long term this can be seen as season of progression. Eboue, Senderos, Clichy, Cesc, Flamini, Quincy, VP (although the jury is still out, as previously mentioned, his reception from the crowd was a bit frosty after his antics last week). None of them over 21, and all secured by AW for a sum total of appx £5m. We are lucky to have him.

Sabir
March 06, 2005

I was sitting right next to the Pompey fans and it was us singing 'we only sing when we're winning' not them! But they did seriously take the pee about our lack of vocal support. I can't agree that Cole looked that good today, I thought he was poor and the only redeeming part of his game was doubling up on Clichy (who was fantastic). Quincy wasn't given much time or space today but there were glimpses of quality in his all round game. Senderos is impressing recently, I hope he keeps it up and Flamini just gets better and better. Makaay ruled out for Wednesday is a boost. It really would be amazing if we could turn it around on Wednesday. A clean sheet is the key, then anything is possible. Finally, how bloody cold was it today?!

Bernard
March 06, 2005

Wouldn't disagree with much of what old man and DHD said. I thought Toure looked uncomfortable at right back but improved once he moved to the middle. Must be honest I can't really see why so many people have supported the idea of him playing at right back. I think the number of outstanding games he's had at right back are relatively few, though Blackburn at home last season does spring to mind. Quincy did ok, but that was it really; ok but not great and not as good as we was at Sheffield. Don't see him starting against Munich, though could be used as a sub perhaps. Senderos is beginning to impress me also. Thought van Persie did well when he came on, and Flamini was excellent - again. I think the most outstanding young players at the club are Fabregas and Clichy though; both are absolutely top drawer. Although I've not mentioned everyone, they all did well today but with his hat-trick Henry now has 177 first team goals. That makes him just 8 short of equalling Wright's record and 9 away from beating it. Assuming he doesn't get injured and isn't rested, there's only another guaranteed 11 games left this season (9 in the premiership, 1 in the Champions League and 1 in the FA Cup). He'll have to have one hell of a run of form to get 9 in 11 games to beat it this season, though obviously if we can progress in both cups he could have and extra 2 games in the FA Cup and 5 in Europe if we can reach the final of both. That would give 18 more games this season, and 9 representing just 1 goal every 2 games is less than his record over at least the last two seasons, maybe more as I've not bothered to check prior to last season. So if we can progress in the two cups, particularly Europe, I'd expect him to do it this season, which would be nice.

clock end clive
March 06, 2005

American - not the old mysterious north again please! Chelsea have disproved Ferguson's geographical nonsense and are serenely cruising to the title - horrible but true.

Cannon Balls
March 06, 2005

American, Ferguson rested his main strikers to save them for the Tuesday CL match in Milan, it back-fired big-time on him, and when he did bring them on against against a fired up Palace they were inefective, and Palace even with ten men hung on. We need to win on Wednsday night to set us up for the remainder of the season. I remain optimistic!.

AmericanGooner
March 06, 2005

Well Fergie knows by experience that London clubs are susceptible to dropping points up north but the same applies to northern clubs in the capital. Why is that?

AmericanGooner
March 06, 2005

Its looking more and more like Chelsea's title. Intersting though, but if it was either us or Man Yoo with this type of lead at this point in the season it would have been over in the press and the bookies would have paid out early. Everyone has to see if Chelsea can lead from the front and not self destruct. We (and Man Yoo) are a proven commodity in that regard. **** I want the runner up position at least. No way can we allow both Chelsea and Man Yoo to finish ahead of us. I'm sure they see the title has gone now and that means the battle will be for the FA cup. If we avoid each other and end up in the final it will take some of the gloss off Chelsea's title and it will bring back a little prestige to the cup. I'd love to get Tottenham and Man Yoo in the semis and finals. **** Right now I'm just hoping for a wing and a prayer to get past BM, then go from there, and we MUST beat Chelsea in the league and Man Yoo in the cup. That's the only way to save some face domestically. **** Finally, is it probable (I know its possible) that our game with Chelsea could be the title clincher for them? Basically the same as us at Spurs last season where a draw could get them the title. By any means fair or foul we must NOT let that happen. We must win and deny them winning the title in our game.

AmericanGooner
March 06, 2005

No big surprise that Ash is better than Clichy going forward. He used to be a winger in his youth, has more experience and confidence on the pitch and has been playing in a side that lovest to attack for the last few years. Clichy is still young and learning the position and has to gain the confidence and risk taking comes second nature to Cole now. Clichy's future is bright but he will need a run of games to improve. **** I think we will have to go with Reyes and Freddie on the wings against Bayern Munich. Reyes has fresh legs for one. If he is having a bad game, then by all means, substitute him out. Bring on Clichy at LB and give Cole the position out wide. Same if Freddie is not having a good game. Bring Quincy on wide right. Frankly, I'd bring him on anyway to run at tired BM legs and scare the hell out of them. The Peruvian is good but not at the Makaay's class...yet. He's a bright prospect though. **** Has Highbury always been 'quiet'? Or is it just recently. We get the tag 'Library' a lot and it seems its deserved unfortunately. I thought we could have been louder when I was there but I was satisfied with the chanting, although the opposition fans did sing a lot. Is it just us or are the other London sides with a big following (Spurs, Chelsea and West Ham) louder?

goonerguru
March 06, 2005

OMOH/DHD,thanks,I think Clichy defends just a tadge better than Ash but going forward Ash looks as though he has the ability to beat most defenders with his pace and skill and is not afraid to have a shot,I would like to see him start there on Wednesday and as you both say he is more aware than any of the others to know when to help out at the back.Looks like Cygan getting injured will be a bit of luck for us against Bayern,with BM winning 3-1 I guess they will not be doing that much attacking and be content to sit back and hold their 2 goal advantage,at least Toure wil be able to get forward but with Cygan it would take all day to get up in their box.I would rather we lose again to them but go down fighting than camp in their half but not cteating any real chances.

DHD
March 06, 2005

Goonerguru – sorry to answer OMOH’s question - Cole played first half wide midfield but second, he interchanged quite a lot with Gael and spent periods at LB. Quincy wasn’t as impressive against premiership opposition as he was against SU. I also think Quincy suffered a bit of Henryphilia – he was in awe of the great man and tried to give him the ball at every opportunity instead of taking responsibility himself as he did on Tuesday. I doubt he’d be picked in front of Dennis but you'd want him in the bench. The welcome for RvP was seriously muted, btw. Most people around me used the same word to describe him, and it wasn't very friendly.

old man of hoy
March 06, 2005

Goonerguru - yes Cole played on the left ahead of Clichy and they make a very enterprising pairing. Pleasingly they both understand the necessity for defensive covering, something which Bob and Jose are not too interested in. They did move around the pitch a lot, and at times before we opened the scoring, Ashley was going into the box in an almost orthodox centre forward role. Apparently he started out as a striker and it is evident he knows how to go to the point of dangerous action rather than hang out on the periphery. Quincy did ok but Pompey never gave him space to run full on at them. He made himself some space but shot tamely. He interlinked quite well with TH and did contribute to the opening goal. Personally i do not think he is ready for a start against Bayern but has the mental strength to come on as a sub and ruffle the Bayern feathers.

goonerguru
March 06, 2005

OMOH,did Cole play in midfield?,how did QOA play well enough to get a start on Wednesday?.

old man of hoy
March 06, 2005

I went to the game today, and if you didn't, here is my brief review of it. First of all we were completely deserving of victory. Pompey did a bit in the first half. and a little after we took our foot off the pedal, but it was only a matter of time before we scored, and once we did it could have been more than 3. Our movement bewildered Pompey all afternoon, especially the left side with Clichy and Cole inventive in the extreme. Quincy did well enough but TH was wonderful in so many ways - his team effort was exemplary; his first two goals were sublime; and his control in tight situations is unreal and so regular that it is easy to take him for granted. He led by example, with Paddy not far behind. Everybody did well though i agree with DHD that Toure looked unsure at right back. but redeemed himself at centre back once Cygan went off. Flamini had a totally effective match and Cesc showed yet again that he is the Arsenal king in waiting - do not for a moment believe the 5 out of 10 that TV text gave him - whoever allocates those marks must be crackers. Cesc has brilliant positional sense both with and without the ball. He reminds me of Xavi and must become ourcaptain one day. Senderos gets better with every match and his ability to head a ball correctly and accuratly is beyond anybody else in the the club - if he can keep fit this boy will make any comments about Arsene's inability to spot a good defender seem foolish. Jens had little to do but did pull of two fine saves. Ralph had couple of lapses of concentration but was fine. A word about Robin. He came on to muted applause but immediately set about putting the cat amongst the Pompey pigeons, and if he had not declined a shot on goal in favour of an attempt to put somebody else in, could have scored. Freddie looked fresh and up for it. So, all in all, well done the Arse.

DaveM
March 06, 2005

I didn't see today's game, but a nice solid win. I'd like to see a side like this play at some point: Lehmann, Eboue, Senderos, Cygan, Cole, Fabregas, Flamini, Vieira, Quincy, Bergkamp, Henry. This is a nicely balanced side, with a good combination of youth and experience and I think this side is a lot less likely to quit than a more experienced side. I await reports of Quincy up front with interest. In the Carling Cup games where he played so well he kept replacing Ryan Smith (due to knee injuries) wide left, and he did a really good job there. He's a great dribbler, and as a striker he'll make up that extra man in the box. Fabregas in Ljungberg's position is something I really like. He'll surely end up in central midfield, but having him wide instead of Ljungberg is very useful. He's far more likely to help us retain possession than Freddie, and to surprise the opposition with a pass. He also gets into goal scoring positions, and I think he'll soon be scoring regularly. Personally I think having Fabregas on the right of midfield means we'll be able to compete far more effectively in midfield against sides with 5 in the middle than we do with Freddie. Hopefully, this is finally the beginning of the end for one of our biggest weaknesses. In the longer term Fabregas can start regularly in the middle, and perhaps Bentley (whose gifts are quite similar to Fabregas's, although he obviously isn't as good) can play wide right. We'll need real pace wide left, but Quincy and Smith can provide that. Any side with Fabregas in it will be far more effective against a massed defence. As the young player show they are already good enough it looks less and less likely we'll have to bring in lots of players this summer. Still, a few months to go so we'll see. It occurs to me that if we beat sides managed by Allardyce and Ferguson then the FA Cup can prove to be extremely satisfying. VP must be really disappointed by falling behind Quincy - but Quincy's playing well and isn't making stupid mistakes. The last two games I've been really impressed with Wenger (tactical subs at half time, experimenting, keeping form player in).

DHD
March 06, 2005

B*gg*r 1 - 2 to the Chavs

DHD
March 06, 2005

Bloody cold and wet today but a spirited display and comforting result. Everyone played well, particularly Senderos who really is beginning to look the part – I’m beginning to believe the hype. Cygan went off first half and that saved us the spectre of Kolo struggling once more as a RB – he’s so 3rd choice for that position these days. Ralph came on and played well, much better than he has for weeks. And Norwich have equalized! Good day all round.

Alex
March 06, 2005

Bayern won the Bundesligas top game 1-0 against Champions Werder Bremen. Ballack scored in the seventh minute with a powerful header. But Bayern did not play well. Roy Makaay was stretchered off and will miss the game at Highbury. But watch out for his replacement..young Peruvian Paolo Guerero, who is dangerous and hungry. Bayerns central defenders Lucio and Kovac looked very strong so a lot must come from the wings. I would play Quincey who is a revelation. Come on Arsenal. 2-0 is not impossible on Wednesday. Again, the Highbury crowd sounded far too silent and laid-back and Pompey fans were right when they sang " You only sing when you`re winning." Turn up the volume North Bank!!!

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

Sorry but no team has scored away from home today... Chelsea the lasts ones that can stop it, I doubt it though... God I'm dored today, roll on tonight...

North Bank Mural
March 06, 2005

According to Sky Sports, Roy Makaay injured and may miss Weds game.

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

Henry and Pires have scored 32 prem goals between them, the same as 4th placed Everton...

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

18 points clear of Liverpool in 4th place, Champs League almost in the bag... Chelsea have basically qualified already... So when Tottering Day...22 points behind us 10 games to go...

Romford Gooner
March 06, 2005

Actually Harlow yes I do expect the BBC to be fair. Now if it were ITV or Sky then of course we all know how much they love manure. Anyway, good result for palace, can't wait for fergies press conference after the game. Phil, Jol is on his way to Ajax face it will you. Maybe you could get a quid for your season ticket if you donate it to comic relief!!

North Bank Mural
March 06, 2005

Oh dear did you see fergusmoans face at the end, lets all laugh together. Been fulfilling family commitments (bad panning I know) did we play well today?

Phil the Spud
March 06, 2005

im cancelling my season ticket at the Lane for next season.Anyone want to buy it?

Cannon Balls
March 06, 2005

The drunken jocks thugs could not beat a 10 man Palace. Time for Ferguson to shut his big-mouth, the twat. All of them stupid thick brainless Muppets wearing Cantona masks today have made themselves look right Kants. If Chelsea win the title looks theirs barring some immense collapse. AC Milan will be laughing.

Cannon Balls
March 06, 2005

Henry! - hat-trick !!!, free kick top corner 3 great goals come on you gunners!.

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

Behave Romford, you expect to see a fair showing for 15 minutes on TV, from the BBC, you do make me laugh...

Romford Gooner
March 06, 2005

Harlow, Not commenting until I see MOTD later on. That should tell us wether the ref was fair or not.

AmericanGooner
March 06, 2005

Good to see Henry with his scoring boots on. Very nervous about Wedesday but lets get by today and worry about tomorrow...tomorrow.

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

Romford, amazing Man Utd have not committed a foul for over 25 mins, in that time CP have comitted seven and had a player sent off....

Cannon Balls
March 06, 2005

Oh dear - Saints 1, Spuds 0, disgraceful!.

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

Romford, now see, a combination of fousl gets a palace player sent off, man Utd benefit again, will now go on to win... Fair, don't make me laugh...

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

Romford, I have lost count of the times this season where United have committed more fouls in a game than the opposition, yet they always have less bookings, now I understand about the level of fouls, but it must be a bloody miracle that United players have learned to commit booking less fouls...

Romford Gooner
March 06, 2005

Haven't seen the fouls so I can't really comment. There is nowhere in the rules that say all players committing 3 fouls must be booked. I'm sure if he carries on he'll be booked eventually for persistent fouling or whatever they call it.

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

Romforn, what say you about RVN then, 3 fouls no bookings...

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

Man Utd 9 Fouls CP 5 Fouls... what team has got the two bookings... RVN three fouls 19 secs, 32 mins and 39 mins, no booking...

Romford Gooner
March 06, 2005

Oh Harlow, it might 6 petty fouls by manure vs 3 crap tackles by palace players. I have no info on what is going on in that game so I don't know but I would suggest you join US Martian for some paranoia counselling.

Steve Martin
March 06, 2005

So far United committed 6 fouls CP three, what team has the only booking...

Bunter
March 06, 2005

hi gents, does anyone have a link for commentary please ? thanks.

Cannon Balls
March 06, 2005

Phil, before you start accusing me of posting rubbish about Jol going to Ajax have a read of Jimmy Greaves column in the 'Current' today. I will quote from it anyway: "Will Spurs be able to keep Jol at White Hart Lane. He is saying the right things publicly, but if Ajax make a move, we will have to see what happens. He is Dutch and Ajax are a massive club.If i were in his position, then i am not sure what i would do. Having turned Tottenham around he could leave with his head held high. But i really hope that it does not come to that". So Phil the Spud, my info' about Cruff being on the case, the problems with Frankie boy at Spuds, Jols family and friends in Holland urging him to come home, would suggest that i am closer to the likey outcome of this - for Spuds - sorry saga - than your head buried in the sand - wishful thinking hypothesis . After the Abramovich snub this latest one will show the world yet again that Spuds unlike Arsenal are not a big club, Wenger stayed when England called, and also when Real Madrid came knocking on the door; Jol will be on that plane and gone at the seasons end faster faster than a rat disappearing down a Glasgow sewer. Something you are yourself well acquinted with of course.

Romford Gooner
March 05, 2005

PTS-pls feel free to come to Highbury on the 13th April. You won't find anyone there as the game is on the 23rd. All together now he's fat, he's round, he's taking tottenham down, martin jol.................................

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

PG Tips, thanks for the e-mail, very interesting.I tried sending one but it came back for some reason. so i am posting on here.I think the song was Lavender Blue by Marillion ?. I can't see that scenario myself, to start with it could impact on the National sides and Scotlands chance of winning the World Cup!. Also clubs down here having too much to lose. That's the more likely scenario of the two why it will not happen. Anyway it looks like another easy home win today for you, that one the other night looked a bit 'iffy, i had to check to see if Mike Riley had been at Graft!.

freddie
March 05, 2005

Does anyone know if AG will have central heating ?

vince
March 05, 2005

Another player who would be good for arsenal could be going to the spuds.http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=260372&cpid=8&CLID=6&lid=&title=Owen+confirms+Utd+approach&channel=Premiership

Phil the Spud
March 05, 2005

Cannon Balls,Jol is not leaving.Its just wishful thinking on your part because you feel threatened by him.As for your inside info on this matter thats absolute rubbish just like your predictions.Im looking forward to 3 points on April 13th.Your due another good beating at highbury.

clock end clive
March 05, 2005

If we believe the press then Inter may be interested in Edu? Being very much a left-footed player he would seem to be competing for a place with the similarly uni-dexterous Emre. Lets swap - great deal for both clubs.

AmericanGooner
March 05, 2005

My two cents...er...pence...is that I also notice that certain screen names only appear after a disappointing result. Agree with Bernard on that one (the 4th sign of the prophesized bibilical apocolypse is my agreeing with Bernard :). The usual people post after good results...and bad results. I am suspicious of the screen names that ONLY seem to appear after bad results and amont those, especially the ones wanting Wenger sacked and half the stars sold.

Bernard
March 05, 2005

Bodies, I have no problem with people criticising anyone when circumstances warrant it, and if you remember I said I wasn't making any reference to you when I questioned why some people only post over-the-top garbage after a poor result, or display, whichever you prefer to call it. I just found it strange they way they did this, and think it shows little evidence of them being 'real' fans (in your terms). Was it Daz who called them something like wind-up merchants? Deja Vu, I think Chocolate is probably very flattered that someone finds his posts so fascinating that they copy many of them in separate files to read through later. It may not be the effect you're hoping for, but it could be taken as extremely complimentary towards him.

AmericanGooner
March 05, 2005

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/3435552 C'mon Arsenal, get your thumbs out and start mining the rich Yankee footie talent over here!! I'll help managing the academy if you need a translator. (football=soccer; boot = cleats; trainers = sneakers).

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

That's even better, I was a bit slow there! Not going to be pursued by the "Scream" art theft gang then. Some pretentious arty type may convince people it has historical/social/artistical merit in years to come and after all Melvyn Bragg is a Gooner so you never know!

Mee
March 05, 2005

North Bank: I’m afraid you misunderstood my previous post - I was referring to the 2-0 victory over Chelsea (Parlour, Ljunberg) at Cardiff! The mural does not have a great deal of artistic merit. It is neither Robert Rauschenberg or Richard Hamilton, more David James.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

Mee - I am suitably impressed, particularly swapping for Cup ticket! Shame Chelsea won though. Looking back the mural was pretty naff, particularly the piped crowd noise, quite ironic with the current "Library" thing. Perhaps your next move should be to obtain a piece of the Clock End or North Bank although I'm sure the Club has some greedy money spinning ideas on that front should it come to it. Has there been any firm decision on Highbury's ate? The Art Deco stuff is listed isn't it?

Todd
March 05, 2005

Déjà vu: Real Madrid will never give us Owen for free and Owen will not accept chicken feed for wages therefore the deal is never going to happen like that. I think it is a joke.

AmericanGooner
March 05, 2005

DHD, just making sure you're paying attention and keeping up. Sometimes the pace on here is a bit too much for you. :)

AmericanGooner
March 05, 2005

CB, does she have to be dirty as in hygene or dirty as in kinky?

Mee
March 05, 2005

North Bank -Trivia 2. No it wasn’t a charity thing,I heard from a friend of a friend knowing someones aunty - the amazing thing - it was really cheap, I paid something like £25 and got enough to cover the six-yard box. I‘ve since given bits away - one piece I remember i gave in return for a cup final ticket (Chelsea 2-0 - Cardiff) to a gooner whose father was the original Shadows drummer, Tony Meehan.

Déjà Vu
March 05, 2005

Get over it chocolate. You posted it - so therefore it is not unreasonable to suppose that you conceived it and you wrote it. There are no alterations or additions or subtractions to the item pasted - it's all your own work. Walk Tall, Walk Straight and Look The World Right in the Eye.

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

Actually, i am still here, Phil the Spud. I heard on the proverbial, 'grapevine' that Jol is 'def orf' to Ajax. A word which like Daz, we associate with a detergent. All washed up Phil eh?; the gags are getting more naf by the day, oh dear; but i am here for the long-haul son, and i don't mind a little confrontation, so long as you don't overstep the mark and start posting weird paedophile type posts.

DHD
March 05, 2005

American - Reyes and Bergkamp are still banned. Wake up boy and pay attention.

chocolate gooner
March 05, 2005

May I be the first to admit that the Blessed EEG got it right when he questioned Sol’s fitness and ability to last the season, I got that one wrong… every dog has its day, I guess. Cheers. Goodnight. http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=260318&cpid=8&CLID=3&lid=&title=Wenger+admits+Sol+loss&channel=Premiership

AmericanGooner
March 05, 2005

If there is a chance Henry could re-injure himself for BM next Wednesday then I'd just as soon have him on the bench. Pires is out and Freddie has been playing a lot of games lately. Reyes has to start, I think van Persie should get the nod as well. Can DB10 play Saturday and have enough for Bayern Munich on Wednesday? If so, then let him start v. Pompey and if we are up by 2 or 3 goals after 70 minutes, then take him out of the game. If Freddie is up to it, he can start but sub him out with Quincy on the right if we're up comfortably. **** Murdoch has decided to go with Chelsea and Man Yoo games this weekend and no Arsenal game on at all. He even has the Villa game. Arrgghhhh!!!!!

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

Mee-Top triv mate. I hope you did the socially correct thing and insisted on a piece with an ethnic face on it! What a scam, how much did you pay? Was it a "charidee" thing?

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

aah! Bisto.I see you are talking to your self again.My post about Quincy was on wednesday and you have responded on a friday so its been playing on your mind you twat.Im off to find a dirty whore tonight so ill not be posting again tonight.

Quincy Owusu-Abeyie
March 05, 2005

Cannon Balls, even I am not idiot enough to believe I will be better than Arjen Robben. You really do talk shite mate.

chocolate gooner
March 05, 2005

Honesty at work. Sophism isn’t philosophy says I, oh yes it is says our expert car park-er. Why asks I. “Because Gorgias and Protagoras were ‘pre-Socratic’ philosophers” says the father-to-be who has problems walking and chewing gum at the same time. Riiiight. Case closed. BTW my simile is better. Cheers… … … … … JohnD... you don’t think Owen being paid £25000 a week is a conceivable scenario but you think that I conceived of an inconceivable scenario which makes my statement that there is no conceivable scenario in which we’ll be better off with Owen redundant. Am I getting your idiocy right? I also suppose that you consider the scenario in which we get Owen for free aaaaaaand pay him £25,000 a week even more inconceivable than the preceding scenario which you admit, albeit tacitly, is inconceivable but this inconceivable scenario which is even more inconceivable than the previous one nullifies my statement that there is no conceivable scenario in which Owen would be a beneficial swap for Reyes because I conceived of it. Correct? Are sure you’re painting a door, I only ask because given that level of stupidity.. you could very well be covering your wife in some Dulux high gloss… and that would be a shame. Be a sport and repost the entire post you cut that quote from… hey! What have got to hide? BTW… I’ll like some answers to my questions if you don’t mind terribly much. Cheers.

Judge JohnD
March 05, 2005

That was Mr Vu reposting your statements. I agree that you may have meant it was an unlikely scenario but it is crystal to me, as well, that given a certain set of circumstances that, QED you must have been able to conceive, Owen could be brought to AFC. You said it; asking me to get out a Thesaurus does not change the fact that you said it. Asking me if I think it conceivable doesn't change the fact that you said it. Talk to Mr Vu 'cos The Judge can't hear.

Judge JohnD
March 05, 2005

The preceding sentence was " All you’ve got is “Russell said”. Proving what? Will be back but my paint's drying at the moment.

goonerguru
March 05, 2005

Ralph,it was 1983,dec 26th when we won 4-2 at WHL,team was,Jennings,Hill,Sanson,Robson,OLeary,Caton,Meade(2),Davies,Woodcock,Nicholas(2),Rix,Cork came on for Robson

Daz
March 05, 2005

Interesting simile, chocolate. Here's one for you: you're like one of those duracell rabbits bashing cymbals together long after everybody else has stopped giving a E*G whether you can go on for the longest. The guff you have emitted on this subject is impressive in quantity if not quality. It changes nothing. Protagoras and Gorgias were a) Sophists and b) pre-Socratic philosophers. All the embarrassing white noise you have emitted since on the subject fails to change that fact. There are a myriad deals involving Owen which are a) conceivable and b) favourable to Arsenal whether or not they involve Reyes. None of your useless sound and fury gets you off the large hook to which you obligingly hitched the belt of your shorts so why don't you just - in your own immortal words - shut it! and stop making yourself look so E*Ging idiotic.

AmericanGooner
March 05, 2005

Mee, other than mistyping Englishman for Rice (my mental error having read his cv on arsenal.com prior to posting), I am not sure what 'up and at 'em' tactics I suggested. I said my guess is that Wenger may not feel he has much to add and that Wenger had to change the methods of the training staff probably (diet, training, etc.) and maybe doesn't respect them as much as tacticians since all they know is the English style of game. Plus Wenger is a hands on, micro manager. If Pat Rice decides to ply his trade elsewhere, I'd be curious as to who Wenger chooses as a #2. Maybe someone from within like Brady if he goes 'outside', I can't think of anyone he's closely associated with that he may bring in. He likes Hoddle but doubt he'll deal with the anit-Spurs backlash. I doubt if Adams would get the nod. It would be an interesting to see what he would do. James, yes he's Irish of course. And the commentator on my copy of the '79 cup final mentioned it a few times (he was captain back then i think as well, wasn't he?) and also the Arsenal site gives Belfast as his birthplace. I wrote 'english' as a mental error. Grouping you all in the same boat as you will.

Mee
March 05, 2005

North Bank Mural - Trivia :I bought a large chunk of the North Bank Mural which was put up for sale after its completion

chocolate gooner
March 05, 2005

still no answers to those pesky question, I see... but nevertheless, ladies and Gents, There you have it, how to cut and paste and then make a monkey of yourself, JohnD at work. So you see Owen taking a wage of £25,000 a week as conceivable, do you? … You see Madrid giving him to us for free as conceivable, possible or plausible. Get that Thesaurus of yours you need it desperately. You really haven’t got a clue have you?… and another example of the dishonest use of a quote… here’s another quote of what I’ve been saying all along… “You have to be a buffoon to oppose Plato partly on the grounds of his privileged birth while using Russell, who was born in circumstances not too dissimilar to that of Plato, as the sole source of your argument. How does that work exactly?”.. and what does John D ,our honest pensioner, do??… he cuts and pastes a quote to make it look like I have been ridiculing Russell while what the truth is the exact opposite, why not post the preceding sentence?… Even funnier is the way John D wields common knowledge as if he’s some demented character from a cheap Star Wars rip-off wielding a maglight as if it’s a light sabre. Socrates taught people who were both “democrats” and “Oligarchs”. Some of his Students were amongst those suing for peace with Sparta and some were amongst the leading warmongers. IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE. Socrates was described as a man of deep virtue but little faith. So his students had to come to their own conclusions, which makes it entirely understandable that they often came to different conclusions. Your naïve and simplistic reading of the situation in ancient Greece at the time is frankly… hilarious. According to you all good resides with the Democrats although they were pushing for war and had a demagogue as leader for a time, while the Oligarchs who wanted peace with Sparta had no virtue at all. Riiight. The issue is simple enough; if there was a coherent philosophy called Sophism, which according to you was cutting edge and radical then it would have come down to us one way or the other. If on the other hand the sophists were mostly spin doctors for hire, teachers of Rhetoric and purveyors of popular hokum then their ability to charge large fees and work for anyone and everyone begins to make sense. Dems da facts. You can go back to sniffing paint. Cheers.

Chas and Dave. Jols Song
March 05, 2005

The taxi is waiting and is blowing its horn, Levy is cying i dont give a damn, i am off to Amsterdam . Yes i am leaving on a jet-plane, i will not be back again. Goodbye Shite Hart Lane you cant keep me in that shite house i am getting on that plane. I want to break free thats my plan i am off to Amsterdam. Leaving on a jet plane i wont be back again. Goodbye Shite Hart Lane you wont keep me in that shite house i am getting on that plane. Me and Frank had a quarrel now we never speak, each night i ask the stars up above, why must i be the manager, of such a shite poxy club. But i am leaving on a jet plane and i wont be back again ,my holdall is packed i am ready to go, the taxi is waiting blowing its horn, Levy is crying i dont give a damn,i am off to Amsterdam. Goodbye Shite Heart Lane you cant keep me in that shitehouse i am getting on that plane.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

Jeez you must have done some round trips! Now Raphael Meade is a name that doesn't get mentioned often, ahh, where are they now. I lived in Germany for four years and came back as often as poss, remember once setting off after work Friday, travelling to the port and arriving early morning for the Arse v Watford FA Cup quarter I think it was. Barnes had a blinder and Steve Williams nearly hit the ref after the offside shout. Travelled back after the game and lots of beer in the Firkin pub on Holloway Rd!

Mee
March 05, 2005

Ralph - do you still live in Cornwall - if so, where?

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 05, 2005

Mural: Boxing Day 1983-84 season at WHL 4-2 victory. Also beat Spuds 2-1 (Nov) at WHL in League Cup and at home 3-2 in League. Those were the good old days, Phil!

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 05, 2005

Mural: Amazingly I moved from Whitechapel to Cornwall and on a whim applied and got two season tickets for Highbury. I left them with my Dad to use (with a mate) but for some reason managed to see every weekend match. Put on a lot of miles. Anyway, I moved to Cornwall around 1980 and my seats were in East Stand (Lower-Clock End) and Charlie Nicholas was in town, so that should close in on the year of the 4-2 debacle of Hoddle & Archibald at WHL. I recall the other scorer was Raphael Meade (?). Meade or Nicholas got either 2 goals each or one got a hat-trick. I will check if the current Arsenal dot com still show old results etc.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

Nice tune Mr Spudly, can you do something with "Return to Ajax, Tottenham are shite, return to Ajax, oh I just might. Frank and I had a quarrel, now we must part....

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

When was that Ralph because I remember going to Villa Park on a couple of New Years jaunts. Sneaking in the Aston Tavern and masking my accent!!

Sabir
March 05, 2005

Re: the ongoing Owen debate. I think everyone has now made it clear whether they are for or against the idea of Owen joining us and they will not change their stance now. I've always said he'd be great. One thing is for certain though - his record this season with Madrid has been absolutely top draw. And I haven't noticed any decline in his goalscoring abilities at all.

Elvis Spudly
March 05, 2005

OH i wish i were back in Spudland away,away.It's freezing cold up here in Glasgow, i want away, away. Jol is soon away, flying away, glory, glory not so hot Spuds, glory, glory not so hot Spuds, and the Gunners go marching on. Hush all you Spuds don't you cry, dont you know that you have been living a lie. And all your FA Cup hopes will soon be over. Glory, glory not so hot Spuds , glory , glory not so hot Spuds, and the Gunners go marching on.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

Got to be close Ralph, I would like to see Quincy on to "detect" (sorry) the weakness in the Pompey defence but would start with Aliadiare over Lupoli, he is more acclomplished, pacy and likely to score. RvP should not start, needs to learn a lesson or two.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 05, 2005

Phil The Spud.... I recall a Boxing Day/New Year's day at WHL watching Charlie Nicholas & co spank your idols (including HODDLE) 4-2..... Those really WERE the days!

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 05, 2005

Sounds like CYGAN & COLE are being rested this weekend and possibly may start with HENRY on the bench. Team seems to almost pick itself. Let me think: LEHMANN, CLICHY, LAUREN, SENDEROS, TOURE, LJUNGBERG, FLAMINI, VIEIRA, FABREGAS, QUINCY, HENRY; subs ALMIUNIA, ALIADIERE (or LUPOLI), VAN PERSIE, EBOUE, another strong Defender (HOYTE or DJOUROU or SKULASON or SIMEK if not on loan or injured, to cover centre back s and midfield)

Daz
March 05, 2005

Very good, Deja, although I'm not ignoring choc-a-google-goo at all. Given that Owen scored again for Madrid the other day those deals seem both conceivable and attractive. Although funnily enough right now I'd like a decent defender and a proper goalie rather than a twenty year old from the Ivory Coast, a Romanian version of Cygan or a discontented Argie.

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

Well Bertie or is it Bisto?,the only thing immutable about an Arsenal v Spuds semi is given that immutable means unchanged, fixed, is that on the evidence of recent ties Arsenal win on your premise ,and that's no joke!. Well, it's funny if your not a Spud !. But it's all pie in the sky, Newcastle beat Chelsea in the last round and they are not going to let Spuds go up there and win are they now?. Get real.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

Oh dear Spud, 25 years ago rates as your best victory, oh dear, dear.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

A bunch of Indians capture a cowboy and bring him back to their camp to meet the chief. The chief says to the cowboy, "You going to die. But we sorry for you, so give you one wish a day for three days. On sundown of third day, you die. What is first wish?" The cowboy says, "I want to see my horse." The Indians get his horse. The cowboy grabs the horse's ear and whispers something, then slaps the horse on the ass. The horse takes off. Two hours later, the horse comes back with a naked blonde. She jumps off the horse and goes into the teepee with the cowboy. The Indians look at each other, figuring, "Typical white man - can only think of one thing." The second day, the chief says, "What your wish today?" The cowboy says, "I want to see my horse again." The Indians bring him his horse. The cowboy leans over to the horse and whispers something in the horses ear, then slaps it on the ass. Two hours later, the horse comes back with a naked redhead. She gets off and goes in the teepee with the cowboy. The Indians shake their heads, figuring, "Typical white man - going to die tomorrow and can only think of one thing." The last day comes, and the chief says, "This your last wish, white man. What you want?" The cowboy says, "I want to see my horse again." The Indians bring him his horse. The cowboy grabs the horse by both ears, twists them hard and yells, Read my lips! POSSE, damn it! P-O-S-S-E!"

Déjà Vu
March 05, 2005

Daz, ignoring chocolate, he'll only see it as flattery. I have been looking through my files this afternoon in order to learn a little of philosophy and, perchance, came across the ' no conceivable deal' exchanges. In the week before this commenced, chocolate had made a couple of statements that bear on this subject. 1} "If Madrid are willing to give us Owen for free and if Owen is willing to take a salary of say £25k a week, then by all means give him a chance… " 2}"why should we have to make do with Owen if there is some real talent out there that a fair Reyes fee will allow us to buy. Except they are willing to give us Owen cheaply and if Owen is willing take a significant pay cut the deal will be totally dumb." Seems to me that prior to arguing for arguing sakes and pursuing the argument to wherever it might take him, he could see a conceivable deal that might bring Owen to The Arsenal. Very sophistical.

Phil the Spud
March 05, 2005

I remember the good old days when we used to come down and take the north bank.In 1980 when we thumped you 3-1 was probably my greatest all time wins against you.Half the north bank was blue.The good old days.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 05, 2005

Recoba is costing Inter 'big bucks' in wages and as he is somewhere near 30+ years old, I am convinced he would not be a Wenger buy. Shaun Wright-Phillips (once knee cured) will be more likely. The signings in Summer will be very EBOUE-like in all positions. Youthful-Speed-Power-Stamina is his criteria as you saw at Sheffield t'other night. If our squads have players with all three Wenger is ensured of top 4 place in Prem each season! However, I would buy Sheff Utd's captain MORGAN for those dark cold nights at OT, Bolton, Blackburn etc. His smile while kicking lumps out of VIEIRA & co was priceless!

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

Er,are you not on the wrong board again Phil ?.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

Mee-Immutable what of football derision? Is that akin to saying it's bound to happen?! Are you Daz/Chocolate in disguise?!

Alan Shearer
March 05, 2005

Wot Spuds semi-final?

Mee
March 05, 2005

All these spud-u-like jokes - they will come back to haunt us in the semi-finals, its one of those immutable truths of football derision.

melterskelter
March 05, 2005

http://www.worldfootballers.com/news.php?id=3360 a bit of intresting readin

Phil the Spud
March 05, 2005

Northampton manager Colin Calderwood has bolstered his club's promotion chances with the loan signing of Tottenham striker Lee Barnard. The Cobblers are pushing for an automatic promotion place, with Calderwood keen to improve his side's firepower for the final furlong of the season. Calderwood was short of attacking as options as Stuart Noble, on loan from Fulham, returned to his parent club on Thursday after picking up an injury.Barnard, 20-years-old, finished top goalscorer for Spurs' reserve side last season and was considered worthy of being offered a fresh deal at White Hart Lane. The promising starlet spent a two-month spell at Leyton Orient earlier in the campaign and will hope to further his experience at Northampton. Barnard could make an immediate debut at the weekend, as top marksman Scott McGleish is struggling with a shoulder injury sustained in midweek.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

More chance that you will grow a full head of hair my friend, also your superior, wealthier North London rivals will destroy you in the semi-fianl. However, I must congratulate you on making a good career move. Tottingham Seven sisters or Ajax Amsterdam?? Now let me see......

Martin Jol
March 05, 2005

Yes Mural i have but i must first win the FA Cup,and leave in a blaze of glory,ve vill villy shake em up ven ve vin da FA Cup ja !. If not then they will have to wait until the year ends in one ja??.

DHD
March 05, 2005

Jamie Davies – imho there were a bloody sight more than 470 up there on Tuesday. The queue for the pies was more than that. Were you there yourself?

Phil the Spud
March 05, 2005

Going to watch Spuds at the Lane can actually be very educational i herd a man who had been on his first visit there say on leaving " Well that's taught me a lesson".

Judge JohnD
March 05, 2005

I'll be summing up soon, Mr chocolate. But, just popped in from painting a couple of doors and I have, quickly, to put you straight on more historical inaccuracies. The Thirty Tyrants were the oligarchical government set up in Athens at the end of the Peloponnesian War. It was headed up by Critias, a pupil of Socrates, and included several others who were former followers. It was in this atmosphere that the prosecution, trial and death of Socrates got underway That's why I pointed out to you some time ago now that not everyone, even his pupils, tell us the same of the man that Plato does. So because a couple of Sophists didn't agree doesn’t really tell us much of any import - at least they didn't campaign to have Protagoras put down - but that's ok if it's all you've got. Cue reloading of scattergun and 'I know this, because you have just told me. I didn't say there were no Thirty Tyrants, how do you know there were not Twenty Nine Despots?' The class issue is one you chose to introduce with your shallow view that the Sophists were sycophants to the aristocrats of their day, therefore to be ridiculed, and by such comments as "Russell, BTW, was an Earl. Pretty swanky, eh? Dimwit." All this whilst not understanding that the people you compare them with, not only have a record of serving the same masters but had all the right connections and independent wealth. Of course, I delved a little further into Plato, not because I was holding back the big lie, but to add a little more realism to your selective passage from 'philosophy for dummies'. Of course I can see it in the context of the age. But it doesn't change his view on ethics and morality, does it? - and you are quite entitled to go along with this Mr chocolate gold.? Can you see anything in context for any other movements from 500 BC?

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

Welcome mr Jol, have you got your tickets back to Amsterdam yet?

Pill the Spud
March 05, 2005

My season ticket is expensive at the Lane. But chairman Levy pointed out that price includes getting to watch a championship winning team. Arsenal.

My Eyes Have Seen The Glory (at the lane
March 05, 2005

Mind you i am 90 years old.I am denoting them to the Spuds club museum when i die.

Martin Jol
March 05, 2005

470?. Thats more than we get at the lane we use dummies to fill the empty seats , but they are so like the real supporters that no one notices.

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

aah! Bisto.I see you have chosen a new handle Wok Kung Fu Fatto post you pathetic drivel that is annoying and of good to this forum so go and crawl back into your glasgow sewers.You are not welcome here..

Jamie Davis
March 05, 2005

We brought 470 fans to Sheffield on Tuesday for an FA Cup replay. This is appalling. I hate to say it, but teams like Liverpool take thousands to every away game, and make far more noise than we ever do.

North Bank Mural
March 05, 2005

From the perspective of the lower league clubs, the no replay in the FA cup is disastrous. Exeter's replay against Manure for instance practically cleared their debts and ensured survival. OK it saves us at the top end and CL from so many fixtures but why not start the season a little earlier? Cannot agree that it will help hopeless Sven and England, was it down to fitness why we lost to Brazil in the World Cup? Would it help the penalty taking ability that always eems to let us down? Don't think so. Now the hopeless Swede on obscene amounts of cash for a part-time job had better deliver. My money is staying in my sky rocket. Let the guns blow a hole in the Pompey ship tomorrow.

Wok Kung Fu Fat
March 05, 2005

Confuscious say man who tell unfunny jokes is a fool.

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

The seven dwarfs are down in the mines when there is a cave-in. Snow White runs to the entrance and yells down to them. In the distance a voice shouts out "Arsenal" are good enough to win the European Cup." Snow White says "Well at least Dopey's alive!"

Jim Davidson
March 05, 2005

Thunk.

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

How many Tottenham fans does it take to change a lightbulb? None, they're all happy living in the shadows

chocolate gooner
March 05, 2005

Harrow… I always look forward to your posts too if only because they’re so empty and so far up its own wazoo… and being called a twit by someone like you is high praise indeed. If you have something to say I’ll be more than happy to listen… hopefully it will be on a higher level that that dump you left on the forum about race and racism. That made me laugh. Cheers. … … … … … Decaf, here’s what you said… “NO Tyrants, you say. NO writings by Sophists. The 'people' DIDN'T like the Sophists. Social background DOESN'T matter.”… So let me ask you 1) who was the “Tyrant”? what was his name? How can 30 tyrants rule one city all at once? 2) Why don’t you define Sophism and/ or Sophist for us and then tell us what their “philosophy” was? 3) Where did I say that Social background doesn’t matter? 4) I was only responding to Russell’s comment’s about the Sophists and contrasting it with the historical evidence. 5) get a new dictionary. Odium is STRONG dislike, STRONG aversion, STRONG distaste. OPPROBIUM. Geddit? There has never been an idea of merit which attracted such feelings from most intellectuals most of the time (even the intellectuals who were described as Sophists) in the end a serious and good idea will make itself heard… as for the populations… Mandela might have been hated by a lot of the whites in South Africa but he was loved by a lot of the blacks and a fair few whites too. In the end any idea of merit will come through… so why didn’t Sophism, whatever sophism might be? I don’t expect any answers just your usual sniping but it’s always a pleasure to knock’em down. cheers.

Cannon Balls
March 05, 2005

Obviously not you though Niall, otherwise you would never have read the last part about Robbie Keane!. Come on you know i am right admit it!!.

Bodies In The Box
March 05, 2005

Bernard - for "slagging off" I read "criticise". For "poor result", I read "poor performance". People deserve praise for continued good performance and criticism for prolonged poor performance. Managers deserve to be criticised when they make, or fail to make decisions that cost the team. It's very simple, but on here there seems to be a stigma with some people attached to criticism, which I find bizzare to be honest. What is the point in having a forum if you are only allowed to say nice positive things? I just don't understand that attitude. A real fan in my eyes is simply defined as someone who is deeply passionate about their club and who goes to support them in the flesh whenever they are able. How can you claim to be "fanatical" about Arsenal, live in England and yet never have gone to Highbury to watch them? Maybe you are agoraphobic, maybe you are seriously ill or perhaps you are incredibly poor. If you have an excuse then fair enough. If you can't be arsed then you are not a real fan. I'm not refering to you Bernard by the way (I think we know the people or person that I am refering to).

Looka Snoopoli
March 05, 2005

The point is that DB10 needs replacing (if such were possible), not necessarily that Aimar could be the man.

DHD
March 05, 2005

Snooker, Decaf – Aimar doesn’t get picked because he’s deemed not to have the physical presence to cope with the rough and tumble of La Liga. He’d need liberal dosings of Creatine in his paella if he were ever going to be any use over here.

Niall
March 04, 2005

And that post Cannon explains why so many switch off after the first few sentences.

Snooker Lupoli
March 04, 2005

surely previous poster means 'nuanced,' no?team for Saturday:Almunia Lauren, Toure, Senderos, Clichy Eboue, Vieira, Cesc, Ljunberg Henry (else Owusu-A if not fit), Aliadiare- point is this:(i) Almunia better form than Jens(ii) Eboue best of right side options if Ljunberg needed to cover left in absence of injured Cole (and in my opinion better bet going forward than either Lauren or Hoyte and CERTAINLY much better than compatriot Toure).(iii) Porstmouth less a roughhouse than SheffU or Bolton or southampton, and therefore ideal for Cesc to be a creator(iv) Aliadiare (if injury free) a true topnotch prospect(v) O-A the 'pace' replacement option.(vi) Poster on Aimar correct - first priority is to replace the divine DB10.

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Almunias comment about the Arognes incident appears to have been taken from an interview given to the Spanish media intended for Spanish readers. Of course these sort of articles are always translated into English and resurface in this country, to shock horror. I wonder if Almunia would have said the same had it been an interview on Sky in English?. And perhaps the quotes have been taken out of context, lost in translation, etc?. That Reyes will be gone in the summer seems a certainty, we can expect to see a mass exodus of foreigners departing from the Premiership,Edu is another,and not just players either, Jol will be packing his overnight bag which is all he arrived at Spuds with, two pair of socks and a change of underwear and going home to manage Ajax. They change managers more times at Spuds than the Guard at Buck House. They get bigger crowds watching the changing of the guard than Spuds though, who are also less entertaining. And that Robbie Keane goal celeb!!!, someone needs to have a word with him, it's really embarrassing to see him making such a Kant of himself. Not of course for the Spuds themselves they can identify with him.

Decaf
March 04, 2005

Harrow, the word you are looking for is 'naunced'.

Alex
March 04, 2005

At last the FA sees some sense and scraps replays and brings the FA Cup final forward to help the England team not to embarras the country and/or go to the tournament with an injury-ravaged side. I cannot believe all the fuss.What will count more when the world cup starts. Seeing England do well or bloody worthless FA Cup replays which decimate our top sides. The FA Cup is important for minnowsbut even thye wouzld profit froma semi-successful England side

Decaf
March 04, 2005

Niall, judging from the violent shrug and look Henry gave Reyes when Reyes offered to take that free kick against Bayern, I'd say you are quite right. Henry did applaud the couple of good things that Reyes did, but could that have been ironic given that it was literally a couple? The more I think about it, the more I think we should ship Reyes and van Persie and get someone who can play behind Henry. I read that Aimar is unhappy under Ranieri and hardly ever picked.

Niall
March 04, 2005

I wonder just how much cost the Aragones incident has had to our season. So the Spanish FA stick to their policy of refusing to recognise the seriousness of the situation in their country and fine the coach a paltry two grand. Henry is rightly outraged, but squad harmony is not improved by Almunia and Reyes both coming out and defending their international coach. For Reyes at least there is some defence in that if he condemns his coach he could be cast out of the Spanish squad and possibly seen as going against his home nation if he is critical. As he had a direct involvement, at least he has the right to comment even if he appears to be on the wrong side of right. Almunia however, has little to no chance of winning a cap for Spain, so why does he feel it necessary to comment at all? An article in the This is London this week said that Henry has little time for Reyes and is exasperated at Van Persie. This makes me wonder if this incident has had a more defining affect on our season than anyone has realised. Certainly Reyes has not been the same player since and perhaps the kicking at Old Trafford is an oversimplification of things. Is this the reason he is so keen to get back to Spain I philosophise?

Daz
March 04, 2005

I am a huge admirer of Wenger, Mee, but sometimes I like a bit of Neil Warnock in my managers. (I love the way he admires Arsenal as well). Frankly, I'm not in much of a position to discuss Rice's merits as a coach but I think we are missing a figure who can appeal to a little more than the players professional pride when things are going wrong. I also think Wenger is weak tactically when it comes to substitutions, defence and shaking up the game at crucial times. I'm not sure that Rice is the person to offset these weaknesses.

Bernard
March 04, 2005

Bodies, after questioning the validity of support by people who don't make short posts slagging the manager and players off after a poor result, how do you define 'real' fans, as you presumably count yourself as one?

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Daz,i call a table a table because it is a table. I used the table with four legs analogy to point out to Chocolate that if i pointed to a table and said look that tables got four legs then that is a fact.It was related to an issue of media bias actually, if i recall, and political correctness, and i was refering to the dangers of this sociological nonsense that is being inflicted on society by the adherents to it's philosophy. And i suggested that Chocolate himself appears to be motivated by political correctness idiology , which can often blind the holder of such views to the overall picture of events , or even leading them to jump to the wrong conclusions without thinking through their premise, or accusations.

N10
March 04, 2005

Where's the link to Almunia backing Arragones (about his racist comments to TH)?

Harrow Gooner
March 04, 2005

Daz - I think most people on this board recognise that, although amusing at times, posters like Chocolate & Phil are daft & argumentative twits - their posts contain lots of googled info but demonstrate absolutely no signs of intelligent application & often reach bizarre & unsupportable conclusions. They are like children desperately seeking any attention & I'm sure that you of all people can recognise that engaging with them only makes them act dafter & more argumentative. To be honest, I look forward to your postings are they are usually well thought out and funny. You have absolutely no need to stoop to their levels or to prove your intellectual superiority over them - hell, my little niece has more clarity in her thoughts than chocolate. Here's a question for you though - in your opinion are chocolate's lengthy discourses on philosophy better categorised as examples of paradoxical or ironic (not the Alanis Morissette definition!)?

Mee
March 04, 2005

Daz - I posted earlier about Pat Rice’s suitability as assistant manager. American suggested he was simply an englishman within the camp able to comprehend the up and at ‘em tactics that didn’t appear on Wengers radar - what’s you view?

Dormouse
March 04, 2005

I quite like the philosophy debate. I don't usually read the posts & I'm not sure it is going anywhere, but enjoy some of them when I feel like having a look. Seems to me that quite a lot of the points are quite good. I think that discussions on other issues adds to the forum; prefer it when posts are either football or other issue and not a mixture of both. The only thing that ever started to put me off the forum was the time when it was full of nonsensical, usually insulting one-liners; trying to scroll past them was nowhere near as easy as scrolling past philospohy.

Daz
March 04, 2005

Fair enough but usually they just die out of their own accord although chocolate is proving hard to dislodge from his church tower despite several Panzers giving it their best shot. Still think it's less to do with ithe topic being non-football and more inverted snobbery that plain--talking, straight-forward blokes don't trouble their heads with such nancy-boy nonsense.

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Did you hear that the Post Office has had to recall their latest stamps?.... They had pictures of Arsenal players on them. People couldn't figure out which side to spit on.

Mee
March 04, 2005

Daz: I understand your point about scrolling past philosophy posts, but I maintain that certain postees might be blinded by the glare from your debate and think they have nothing of value to add to the football related forum.

Daz
March 04, 2005

That's actually not true, Cannon Balls, unless I'm teasing chocolate as he's been such a longstanding admirer of my many accomplishments. You're a very 'literal' kind of guy as befits somebody who calls a table a table. You're right that Phil never really bothered me that much - apart from his habit of multiple one line posts which were harder to scroll past. But look where it's got you allowing him to get so far under your skin.

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Whoops!,yourself , one word.

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Daz,you are the only one who bangs on about your education, and how clever you are. I would never have suspected it though from reading your posts. I am not surprised either by your support for the odious PTG , with whom you appear to have some sort of rapport. Perhaps an empathy with his a man alone fighting against lifes adversities - a stance which you appear to often adopt your self.

Daz
March 04, 2005

Having said that I feel that my restraint in no longer engaging iwith the guff factory's output on the sophists is not being properly recognised. He's like one of those tennis ball machines, firing out an irrelvancy or an inaccuracy or a cluster bomb of nonsense at a speed which is quite awe-inspiring. I've been itching to ask him about the average wage of a sophist and how it compares to Plato's independent wealth but I've been chided by no less than Harrow Gooner and - underneath my bragadaccio - I'm really quite sensitive.

chocolate gooner
March 04, 2005

I take it that you can’t answer the questions then? Ho hum. Let me make one thing clear, just because you have leapt over the top in your unsubstantiated and, quite frankly, ludicrous characterisation of the Sophists doesn’t mean that I am doing the same for Plato… so please stick to what I actually say if it’s not too much trouble. I knew the supposed “big lie” was bound come up and I’m only amazed that it took this long (I won’t bother asking, why?). Most modern scholars say that the proper interpretation of what Plato said was a “foundation Myth” and if you’ve bothered to read ‘The Republic’ you’ll know that the idea was meant to capture the essence of the social organisation he was proposing… a way of getting the populace to understand the concept underpinning their governance. It was never meant to be seen as a ‘literal truth’ just an equivalent of the Homeric tales… or else he wouldn’t have been able to justify the promotion and demotion between his classes… and the fact that only the lowest class were allowed to own property seems to have escaped you. So once again you, childishly, grab the worst possible interpretation of an idea in an effort to further a pathetically weak argument, no change there. An oligarchy is a totally different form of government to a tyranny… and you can’t have thirty Tyrants governing one city… that their opponents might have labelled them tyrants doesn’t make them so. The fact remains that the oligarchy had broad support in Athens and as I keep telling you Athenian democracy was nothing like our representative democracy. I have never said that Plato was a saint or even beyond criticism so save the lecture for some one who might remotely need it, suffice to say that it is ridiculous to judge an idea without any reference to its context and time. Your questions, as usual, are silly and have nothing to do with what I’ve been saying. There’s no one here who’ll say that I’ve questioned wage earning per se and it is a measure of your desperation that you’ve now managed to rope in the unions and teachers at local comprehensives. The simple fact is that you can’t have a cutting edge idea that is simultaneously acceptable to different rulers who are all willing to pay handsomely for it. If you wish to argue that the acquisition and dissemination of knowledge favours the rich and well connected… then make that argument. What you can’t do is try and present a thoroughly bad argument and try to justify it on the grounds of class… is Arthur Scargill’s worldview superior to Bertrand Russell’s? Plato’s ideas have survived because of their merit not merely because of his class… sophists on the other hand have a reputation that you claim that they’ve done absolutely nothing to deserve… in spite of the compelling historical evidence to the contrary and all this is down to their class? Little wonder your wife chucks things at you. Cheers.

Daz
March 04, 2005

Ahhhhhh, see all that education and I still get it completely wrong. Thanks (and to you, Bernard). Yes it's very weird - especially at the tender age of 40 - although I boarded the worry bus some time ago and now live in a state of almost constant panic about it so that I even feel uneasy discussing something which is bound to go wrong. Most importantly he (found that out the other day) must remember who the Alpha male is, not interrupt my work and realise that the spare room is for me to work in. I've cleared out a small space behind the telly which should be ample.

Decaf
March 04, 2005

I must admit that 2nd last one was very obscure.

Decaf
March 04, 2005

PS, Old Man: good chocolate joke (could it be that you have started a new genre?), well chosen to illustrate his debating technique. He thinks he's doing it but he aint! Daz: I was talking about the happy addition to the family that you were referring to yesterday. Paradigm shift! I don't understand the odium that is being heaped on non-football posts either. Surely people can tell and just scroll past - a benefit of the layout of the site.

Daz
March 04, 2005

If you're suggesting that I deliberately started that debate to cause odium, decaf, then you're quite wrong. Chocolate said sophism wasn't philosophy, I said he was wrong and the blue touchpaper was lit. Don't understand your paretheses either.

Daz
March 04, 2005

Mee: I'm genuinely confused by your post. Decaf frequently discusses football but has got sidetracked into an argument about philosophy with one of the 'special people'. Why should that be so disconcerting to 'genuine' Arsenal fans that they have to go somewhere else? Are they being crowded out? Is anybody telling them they can't discuss Bob's injury, Wenger's tactics, stadium finance or the brilliance of Cesc. Perhaps the problem is that many of the posts on football topics are monotonous drones about the same old E*G and that's why some like to riff around other topics AS WELL AS Arsenal until something really important comes up. The problem here isn't really the non-football stuff it's because they're talking about philosophy which is seen (not by you but by some others) as being showing off, pretentious, pseudo blah blah blah. In fact, as decaf has correctly pointed out the argument is less about philosophy and more about chocolate's dishonest methods of debate which he extends to football. As for the tone you're complaining about it's the kind of knockabout stuff that you always get. I don't want people to treat my views with respect or courtesy - if I'm in a pub talking about football or philosophy or I-Pods I want a heated argument and the insults flying. Just as in a football match I enjoy it when rather than a handshake after a foul, the eyeballing, yapping gestures and snidey slaps come in. Speaking of which the Sheff Utd captain was hilarious at it - the grinning was quite brilliant. There are people on here I prefer to others but have had slanging matches with more or less everybody. As for this idea that somehow I want to come on here and flaunt my education, well I don't wanna sound smug but I don't need to do that (other than as a JOKE to wind up chocolate which is where most of it came from). I left college a very long time ago and I don't really feel the need to search for validation of dusty old qualifications on a football supporter's forum.

Decaf
March 04, 2005

Old Man of Hay: fair points about relative merits of keepers. One could argue that few would not be reduced to jibbering wrecks behind our currently unsettled defence, which tend to leave keeping shortcomings somewhat exposed. However, both Jens and Almunia seem to have basic flaws in technique and temperament. It is one thing for a keeper to have a good run or even a good season (like Jens in the league last season); the kind of consistency Seamen had is quite another matter.

Decaf
March 04, 2005

OK, Steve and co. That was 268 words of my 300 word quota (I am generously not counting this post), so I have just about shot my bolt on non-footy for the day. I have 32 words left of my quota choc, so any question you ask will have to be answerable in that space (or you will have to wait 'til tomorrow). Be warned that I will use them well. PS. Congrats Daz. I hope you are feeling justly proud of yourself. The whole business has been heaped with odium for one reason or another. I found it delightful (partnered as I am with by the lovely lady two slots about the pre-paternal floppy fringe). Would do it again if could.

Decaf
March 04, 2005

Chocolate Gooner: lets get this out the way: I'm an idiot, you feel sorry for my students, I'm confused, and I never say anything. We accept those, so you needn't clutter your post with them. That said: you have to address John's points before you can expect to be taken seriously. You can't just avoid, deny, or bluster past any point that is inconvenient to you. NO Tyrants, you say. NO writings by Sophists. The 'people' DIDN'T like the Sophists. Social background DOESN'T matter. Come on. You can't base a position on such nonsense. Even economists don't make so many heroic assumptions. Answer these any then there would be some basis for discussion. Oh and the definitions of 'odium' include "Hatred; dislike; as, his conduct brought him into odium, or, brought odium upon him." You wrote: '"The Sophists were prepared to follow an argument wherever it might lead them. Often it led them to scepticism." … so why would intellectual merit lead to odium? What is so odious about intellectual merit?” This is what you wrote, choc-o-doodle. Who branded the Sophists ‘odious’ (not the sophists themselves I presume)? Why did ‘sophistry’ come to mean what it has? Well why have ‘lesbian’, ‘philistine’, etc. These labels are not ‘fair’ to the historical ‘Lesbians’ and ‘Philistines’. In fact they have come into being because history was written by certain people. Now, did Russell have odium heaped on him? Yes, he was branded a traitor or at best an appeaser by a 'majority'. Was he odious? Well a majority thought that he was. You meant something different by odium did you?

James - Copenhagen
March 04, 2005

AmericanGooner, Pat Rice is Irish, Belfast, I'm sure Niall will confirm

Jimmy
March 04, 2005

I can't believe Almunia! How can he defend Aragones for racially abusing Thierry Henry? Just because he saved 2 penalties against a lower division team doesn't give him the right to mouth off. He should learn how to catch a ball first.

Gooner7
March 04, 2005

Time to build on the success of S Utd victory ... the lads were celebrating like a team again ...

AmericanGooner
March 04, 2005

Mee, I am hoping Pat Rice is Peter Taylor to Wenger's Brian Clough but alas the evidence indicates he's more MacClaren to his Sven...just there for window dressing and having an Englishman so it makes appearances look better. He's officially listed as Assistant Manager on the books. What that entails, only he and Wenger knows. My guess is that he may not have been too highly thought of for technical advice. All he knew was English football. Wenger brought a lot of continental ways to the club (diet, training, etc,) and taught those things to the staff (all British) that was already there. So, if that is how it happened, is Wenger going to listen to them now? Or Rice specifically? It appears Rice's main job is to hear Wenger criticize players that he won't say to their faces.

Mee
March 04, 2005

American - Since your knowlege of all things football extends to the finer detail of the Spanish Football Federations Charter - Surely you must have some information re Pat Rice? (see my earlier posting)

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

How wrong can you be? I just checked and Materazzi will be 32 this August - only seems last week he was up and coming! North Bank - love her as i do but Delia's performance was a shocker. Get Bentley back before the boy comes to any harm.

AmericanGooner
Yank@versionOfFeverPitch
March 04, 2005

I don't have a link, sorry for the long post. A movie buff buddy of mine who knows I love the Arsenal sent me this. Its from a site of people who have seen movies before they are released (usually work for the studios or one of their vendors). Is it sacrilege or you don't care? ***** Moriarty’s Seen FEVER PITCH! The Farrellys Hit A Home Run!!Hi, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab...Nick Hornby seems to be living a charmed life, artistically speaking. He’s had four films made from his novels to date. In 1997, there was the first FEVER PITCH, a wonderful little gem about an obsessed fan of the Arsenal Football Club that gave Colin Firth one of his first big roles. The film that introduced most American viewers to Hornby was 2000’s HIGH FIDELITY, an excellent romantic comedy starring John Cusack and Jack Black in the role that jump-started his movie career. 2002’s ABOUT A BOY was enormously charming, giving Hugh Grant one of the most tailor-made roles he’s ever had. Each of these films felt personal, like they could only be the products of these particular filmmakers, and that’s definitely the case again with this new American take on FEVER PITCH, a film that gives Pete and Bobby Farrelly some of the best material they’ve ever had to work with.Hornby’s particular specialty seems to be writing about these man-boys who live with one foot in adulthood and one foot firmly rooted in the interests and obsessions of childhood. I don’t think it’s any secret to anyone who reads this site regularly that I indulge my inner twelve-year-old on a regular basis. I think it’s essential to what we do that we hold on to the things that make us happy and inspire us. Right now, looking around my house, I am surrounded by toys and posters and DVDs and other relics that connect me to my childhood, things that I enjoy in a way that it hard to sum up verbally.That can be a real shock to the system for a “real” adult when they walk into this. I know. I’ve seen it happen. You should see the look on a repair guy’s face when he’s here, or the way some of the women I’ve dated have reacted in the past. That look is what this new version of FEVER PITCH is all about, and it’s incredibly potent material. In fact, I’ll go one step further and say this:This is the best film the Farrelly Brothers have made since THERE’S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY, and it feels like a huge step forward for them as artists.Working from a script by Lowell Ganz and Babaloo Mandel, they’ve somehow made a film that feels intensely personal. The Farrellys are New England guys, and they grew up going to Fenway Park. They’re lifelong Red Sox fans themselves. The sense of specific geography in this film is excellent, and I’d imagine anyone who shares a passion for the Red Sox is going to have to own this movie. It’s an honest film, with most of the humor rooted in real human behavior, but there are plenty of small moments of their trademark brand of skewed slapstick. It’s a pretty remarkable balancing act, and the result is that rarest of creatures, a romantic comedy where the comedy is just as important as the romance.If there is any genre of mainstream films that gets largely ignored here at AICN, it’s the romantic comedy, and with good reason. Most of what the studios pump out and slap with that label is insulting, man-hating dreck, feeble-minded would-be female empowerment garbage like THE WEDDING DATE or HOW TO LOSE A GUY IN TEN DAYS. Even the best of the genre, like the work of Richard Curtis, can be hard to swallow because of the fantasy ideal that it peddles. What makes FEVER PITCH (and the other films adapted from Hornby’s work) so unusual is the way it finds the romance in reality. This isn’t a film about a woman being swept off her feet by the perfect man, and it’s not full of deceptions and lies all designed to trick somebody into feeling something. This is about two recognizable people who fall into something real, and because of that, I think it should resonate with male and female viewers alike.The film opens with a brief scene that shows seven year old Ben (Jason Spevack) moving to Boston with his mother. He has a hard time adjusting to the city until his uncle (Lenny Clark) takes him to Fenway Park for an afternoon. Ben falls in love with all of it... the game, the players, the fans, the stadium, the history... and in that moment, the die is cast. Ben gets bit by the bug, bigtime. Wisely, though, the film doesn’t belabor the point. It’s a sweet scene, simply played, and then things flash forward about 23 years.The next 20 minutes or so simply sets up who our main characters are, and works to bring the adult Ben (Jimmy Fallon) together with Lindsay (Drew Barrymore). He’s a school teacher and she’s a systems analyst. He brings an advanced math class to meet her at work as an example of someone who uses applied math in their daily job. There’s no big giant meet-cute moment here. Instead, their attraction is etched in a series of small, believable moments, escalating gradually until they suddenly realize that they’re a couple. It’s moved well past casual.And that’s when Ben tells Lindsay about his love of baseball. And specifically, about his love of the Red Sox. I’m no baseball fan, but you don’t need to be to appreciate the film. What’s important is the passion Ben feels, the fervor of his fandom, and the Farrellys get all the details right. Ben and his friends have certain rituals they enjoy every year, starting with spring training in Florida. When Lindsay and her father spot Ben on ESPN with his buddies, her dad calls him an “asshole,” and he’s not wrong. Ben comes across as a total lunatic. Ben inherited season tickets at Fenway from his uncle, and the dividing of those tickets among his buddies is another ritual, complete with ball-busting and humiliation for entertainment. These things are hard-wired into these guys, and Ben knows there’s a good chance he’s going to lose Lindsay when he reveals all of this to her. After all, he’s lost every other girlfriend over it. Lindsay’s determined to be different, though. She’s charmed by Ben’s boyish enthusiasm, by the way he seems connected to something. She sees all the passion he can muster, and she wants to be a part of it.And that’s the central quandary of the film. How does someone who has spent their whole life partaking in a fanatical passion for something make room in their life for another person? Do you have to give something up? Does the other person have to share that passion? Can they? There’s no villain in this film, no artificial dilemma or THREE’S COMPANY-style misunderstanding that drives the couple apart conveniently at the act three bump. Instead, Ben and Lindsay have to wrestle with the real issues that I’ve faced and that I’ve seen my friends face as they try to build a life together. There are moments in here that I swear I’ve gone through, word for word, with my own wife. It’s surprising how real it all feels.The supporting cast is used to flesh out Ben and Lindsay’s lives and to ground them. All of the people who sit in the seats around Ben at Fenway, his “summer family,” are perfectly cast, as are his friends. I particularly liked seeing the Farrellys use Willie Garson again. He’s always good in their films, and he has some of the most overt comedy moments here, good stuff that contributes some of the best tangential laughs in the film. Barrymore’s friends are probably the least interesting part of the film (although it was nice to see a still smokin’ Ione Skye show up in something), and I could live without the spin clas scene. It’s one of the few moments that feels like a routine romantic comedy. There are other scenes that start off familiar, like a GREAT GATSBY-themed birthday party, but the Farrellys use details like a drunken birthday toast to keep it honest and funny without letting sentiment ruin everything.I actually saw TAXI yesterday morning, just before John Robie called to invite me to see FEVER PITCH, so I walked into the screening ready to hate Jimmy Fallon in this film. I don’t get him. I think he’s painfully unfunny on SNL, and TAXI was like being kicked in the balls by my DVD player for two hours. Somehow, though, the Farrellys managed to strip away all of Fallon’s bad habits here and they got a real performance out of him. Maybe it’s appropriate that he’s not the best-looking guy and he’s not suave and hilarious all the time. Same thing with Barrymore. She’s normal, approachable, and that’s a big part of her appeal. This isn’t wish-fulfillment fantasyland bullshit. I think most people will be able to see themselves onscreen while watching these two struggle to make things work.It’s always risky when you’re the first person to review something. You don’t have the comfort of having the critical herd to tell you what to think. There are times when I go out on a limb for a film and find myself alone. I don’t think that’ll be the case this time, though. If Fox 2000 just releases the cut I saw last night, then I’m confident that the critical community and the mainstream audience both will warmly embrace the film. The fact that the Red Sox actually won the World Series while this was filming gave the Farrellys a Hollywood ending that they never would have tried for otherwise. It gives the film an extra added bit of magic.Even without that, FEVER PITCH succeeds, but taken as a whole, this film is just plain out of the park.

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

I am possibly being too harsh on Carroll but i would say he is nowhere near as good as Lehmann when Jens is on his game, and he is about on a par with Almunia. I would like to see us get an absolutely top class keeper in his mid-20's even if it means paying good money. If we get the right one - say Frey or Cudicini - he could be with us for 6 years. Then back him up with a good young one - Stack if he can stay out of jail. For me Carroll, Jens and Almunia are short-term options only. Also i am not sure that any United player could settle with us - the differences between the two clubs are too deep for that. Unless he returns with dramatically more focus and fitness i also feel we may have only one more year of Sol. I really hope Senderos comes through and also Djourou but until then we need to buy the best available. Ideally Nesta but realistically that is unlikely to happen. I always had time for Materazzi currently with Inter but once of Everton and i think he is relatively young. King i would not take.

North Bank Mural
March 04, 2005

OMOH- Quit with the gags already, don't you know this is a philosophy forum...By the way, does anyone think we will see D.Dein doing a Delia to the library this weekend?!!

AmericanGooner
March 04, 2005

OMOH, not even on a free transfer? Is Carroll that bad? How do you rate him against Almunia or Lehmann then?

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Of course there is the alternative view to the septic-tank one, that is which, according to Thatcher, that in a field of Poppies the tallest will grow stronger and prosper. But if a man is a fool educating him will not change that fact,it will only make him ten times more dangerous. Sociologists are studing people who actualy don't need in the main to be studied. Its the ones studying them that do...

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

American that one about Carroll is the best joke of the lot.

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

OK son - for you - Issy had received no work for six months. So he went to his agent and told him he needed work badly. His agent said, "There's no call for ventriloquists, but there's plenty of work for psychics." So Issy went home and hung a psychic sign outside his house. Within an hour, a woman knocks on the door and says, "I want to talk to my deceased Bernie. How much will it cost me?" Issy replies, "If you just talk to him, £50. If he talks to you, a bit more, £70. But if you talk to each other while I'm drinking a glass of water, that will be £150."

Judge JohnD
March 04, 2005

What is planet Earth? Who are you? Should not the teacher in your local comprehensive accept a wage? Should he/she not belong to a Union that tries to get a bigger wedge? Will you tell us why this is wrong? Will you tell us why being employed by someone who can afford to pay you a wedge is offensive if you are not aristocratic but, if you are aristocratic, it is noble to be employed by the King of Macedonia? But it is unacceptable to be a British Earl and a philosopher. You don't prove you have a better opinion by asking the same question over and over. You have had the answers, you have the analogies, you even have the meanings of tactics and strategy - you can't accept them, that is clear, but stop whining, that insincere bleating. It's not debate. There very definitely were a group of oligarchs known as The Thirty Tyrants - most surprised that your learning (sic) missed this chapter, cue new google. Not only was Plato close to them but Aristotle married into them. As you mention, Philip did indeed hire Aristotle to tutor Alexander - why don't you have a problem with this? In fact Alexander was heard to mutter that he considered Aristotle a 'prosy old pedantic'. I suppose we have to conclude that you see yourself as a 'guardian' - Plato of course did not bother much with 'the common people' or 'the soldiers' - a class apart, bit like the Communist Party in the USSR His lie, to deceive the City, that God created three kinds of men, the best Gold, second best Silver and the common herd of brass and iron, neatly points up the ludicrous nature of your reverence and acquiescence when it comes to thinking for yourself - but that's ok because our state is not going to be as big as Russia. The Terry's chocolate Gold fit to be Guardians, the silver should be Soldiers and those that are left do the manual work. Mrs Judge has just hurled a pack of four kitchen rolls in my direction. She has yelled something similar to Lord Ha Low concerning this discourse and how I have to get out the Dulux and do something more stimulating like watching paint dry. I asked her if one million was a big number. She said of course it was; I said but it is only half of two million so it must be small; she said do you want some hot chocolate for supper; I said I had him for breakfast………..

AmericanGooner
March 04, 2005

While I may not buy into Wenger's latest statement about being happy with both keepers and think that he will buy in the Summer and release one keeper on our books, assuming he doesn't want to buy or is willing to spend on a big name keeper, would Carroll be something you all are opposed to? He would be coming on a Bosman. Is he any worse than either Almunia or Lehmann?

young man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Hey Old Man what about me?

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

And Romford - Moishe was travelling back to London on an El Al flight from Tel Aviv and it was time for the main meal to be served. "Would you like dinner?" an airhostess asked Moishe. "What are my choices?" he asked. "Yes or no," she replied.

Mee
March 04, 2005

Has anybody noticed the correlation between the colour of Pat Rice’s glasses and the results of the team? My, theory is a simple one, namely that the worse the result, the darker the lenses. Just recently he’s been looking like something out of Reservoir Dogs. Can anybody enlighten me as to what he actually does? Please tell me he’s not Phil Neal to Wengers Graham Taylor. Some of you may know otherwise, but I get the distinct impression he clues up before matches by reading Gordon Strachans chalkboard in the paper. Speaking of which, am I alone in finding Strachans tactical slot on MOTD 2 totally incomprehensible?

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Just letting the applause die down Bodies replied - A couple scheduled their medical exams on the same day. After his examination, the doctor said, "You're in good health, sir. Do you have any medical concerns?" "In fact, I do," he said. "The first time I have sex with my wife, I usually feel chilly, but the next time I feel hot and sweaty." "Interesting," replied his doctor. "Let me do some research and get back to you." After examining his wife, the doctor said, "Everything is fine, ma'am. Do you have any medical concerns?" She did not. Then the doctor asked her, "Your husband claims that the first time you have sex, he feels chilly, but the next time he feels hot and sweaty. Do you know why?" "Oh, that old geezer! Of course I do!" she replied. "That's because the first time is in January and the second time is in August!"

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Bodies replied -

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

EEG said if your avin a bubble bath give this one a butchers - One day Pete was complaining to his friend 'my elbow hurts. I better see a doctor'. His friend said 'Don't do that. There's a computer in the drug store that can diagnose anything. It's quicker and cheaper than visiting a doctor. Simply put a urine sample in the machine and it will diagnose your problem and tell you what to do about it. It only costs $10.00.' Pete figured he had nothing to lose so he filled a jar with a urine sample. He went to the drug store. Finding the computer, he poured in the sample and deposited $10.00. The computer started to make a weird nose and various lights began to flash. After a brief pause, a small slip of paper printed. It said: You have tennis elbow. Soak your arm in warm water, avoid heavy labor, it will be better in two weeks. Later that evening, while thinking how amazing that computer was, Pete began to wonder if it could be fooled. He decided to give it a try. He mixed some tap water, a stool sample from his dog, urine samples from his wife and daughter. To top it off, he masturbated into the concoction. He went back to the drug store, poured the sample into the machine and deposited $10.00. The machine again made the usual noise and printed out the following analysis: Your water is hard, get a softener. Your dog has worms, get him shots. Your daughter's using cocaine, get her into a rehab clinic. Your wife's pregnant, it's not yours, get a lawyer. And if you don't stop jerking off, Your tennis elbow will never get better!

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Old man,this forum is a microcosm of life in many ways throwing up it's various predjudices and phobias. But there is one inescapable fact,in a septic-tank full of shit, the biggest turds will always float to the top.

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Bristol thought long and hard then decided - A man wonders if having sex on the Sabbath is a sin because he is not sure if sex is work or play. He asks a priest for his opinion on this question. The priest says after consulting the Bible," My son, after an exhaustive search I am positive sex is work and is not permitted on Sundays." The man thinks: " What does a priest know of sex?" He goes to minister... a married man, experienced..for the answer. He queries the minister and receives the same reply. Sex is work and not for the Sabbath! Not pleased with the reply, he seeks out the ultimate authority: a man of thousands of years tradition and knowledge...A Rabbi. The Rabbi ponders the question and states," My son, sex is definitely play." The man replies," Rabbi, how can you be so sure when so many others tell me sex is work?!" The Rabbi softly speaks," If sex were work...my wife would have the maid do it.

Daz
March 04, 2005

Well that's an interesting take on it, Harlow, but you seem to think that somebody is shoving their education down your throat if they discuss something other than the topic you think they should. They should alwyas discuss football unless it's a non-related football topic that you think is OK. In fact, most people are remarkably tolerant of your endless chivvying and nagging about what you think an appropriate approach happens to be. I'm simply saying that I don't see being educated as something to be ashamed of so it isn't an insult for me. You - among others - have used it as a put down. I'm only saying that you're mistaken it you think it's something I'm going to get embarrassed about. I think chocolate is one of what might politely be called the "special people". But if he wants to witter on at great expense to his own credibility about sophists getting paid "huge wedge" then that's his perogative. Far from caring too much about this, I really couldn't give a E*G. Talk about what you want but those who want to go on about pretentious pseudo-intellectuals should really come up with a more riveting topic - something that they have singularly failed to do unless we count, of course, your monomamic obsession with how hard done by we are. When it comes to changing the mother E*ging record, Harlow old bean, you ain't exactly top of the class.

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Whereupon North Bank let this go - Moshe was taking to his psychiatrist. "I had a weird dream recently," he says. "I saw my mother but then I noticed she had your face. I found this so worrying that I immediately awoke and couldn't get back to sleep. I just stayed there thinking about it until 7am. I got up, made myself a slice of toast and some coffee and came straight here. Can you please help me explain the meaning of my dream?" The psychiatrist kept silent for some time, then said, "One slice of toast and coffee? Do you call that a breakfast?"

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Dormouse quietly pushed this one onto the balk cushion - Whenever 4-year old Miriam was asked her name, she replied, "I'm Mr Levy’s daughter." So her mother tells her this is wrong and that she must answer, "I'm Miriam Levy." Next shabbos, after the service, the Rabbi asks her, "Aren't you Mr Levy’s daughter, little girl?" Miriam replies, "I thought I was, but my mother says I'm not."

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

To which Niall responded - Q: What is the technical term for an uncircumcised Jew who is more than 8 days old? A: A girl.

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Under pressure from the philosophers Mee felt he had to ask - If corn oil is made from corn, and vegetable oil is made from vegetables, then what is baby oil made from?

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

And on xylophone Gaz opined - Hyman recently had a full medical check up. When he returned 3 weeks later after the exhaustive lab tests were complete, his doctor said he was doing "fairly well" for his age. Hyman was obviously a little concerned about that comment and so asked his doctor "Do you think I'll live to be 80, doctor?" He replied, "Well, do you smoke or drink beer?" "Oh no", Hyman replied, "I've never done either." Then the doctor asked, "Do you eat grilled steaks or barbequed ribs? Hyman replied, "No, I've heard that red meat is very unhealthy." "Do you spend a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf?" asked the doctor. "No I don't," Hyman replied. Then the doctor asked, "Do you gamble, drive fast cars, or mess with women?" "No," said Hyman, "I've done none of those things." The doctor looked at Hyman and said, "Then why do you want to live to be 80?"

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Not to be outdone Goonerguru put down his Charlie Buchan Football Annual 1953 and submitted - Moshe is having a session with his psychiatrist. Doctor Cohen draws a picture of a triangle and asks Moshe what it looks like to him. Moshe shows some excitement and says, "It looks like a man & woman in bed." "Hmmm," says Doctor Cohen, stroking his beard. He then draws another picture, this time of a square, and again asks Moshe what it looks like to him. Moshe gets more excited and says again, "It looks like a man & woman in bed." Again Doctor Cohen says "Hmmm", strokes his beard and then draws another picture, this one a circle. He asks Moshe what this looks like to him. Moshe is agitated and replies, "It looks like a man & woman having intercourse." Doctor Cohen says, "Young man, I think you have too much sex on your mind." Moshe replies, "That’s unfair – it’s you who's drawing the dirty pictures."

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Steve M couldn't resist the temptation - A man walked into a bar and ordered three doubles, then quickly downed one right after the other. As he started the third, he ordered three more. The bartender said, "You know, man, that's not good for you." "I know," the man replied. "Particularly with what I have." "What do you have?" the bartender asked. "One dollar."

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Clive, dragging himself away from his legal team preparing their case aginst the BBC for bias, found the time to tell this awful old one - A sweet young clerk at a big city store approached a rather large man in the men’s department. “May I help you?” she purred. “Why, yes, ma’am. I wanna buy a complete outfit of them city clothes.” Her eyes lit up. “Excellent. Shall we begin with a new suit?” “Why, shore ma’am. 53 tall.” “Wow, that’s big.” “Yes, ma’am. They grow them big down in Texas.” “And a shirt and tie to go with it?” “Why, shore ma’am. 19½ 38.” “Wow, that’s big.” “Yes, ma’am. They grow them big down in Texas.” “How about some shoes and socks?” “Why, shore ma’am. 15 double D.” “Wow, that’s big too.” “Yes, ma’am. They grow them big in Texas.” “And a new hat?” “Why, shore ma’am. 9-5/8.” “Wow, that’s really big.” “Yes, ma’am. They grow them big down in Texas.” She got him all decked out, rang up the sale and, as the Texan was counting out his money, couldn’t help but ask, “Sir, I don’t mean to be forward, but I wonder if I could I ask you a question?” “Why, shore ma’am. I already know what it is. And the answer is: 4 inches.” She blushed slight, but blurted out, “Why, my boyfriend is bigger than that!” Without a blink, the Texan replied, “Really, ma’am? Thick?”

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Chocolate - on his way back from the Mesh Networking Group couldn't resist this one - An old retired sailor donned his uniform and headed for the docks once more, for old times sake. He found a hooker and soon they were going at it as well as a guy his age could. Seeking reassurance, he asked, "How am I doing?" The hooker replied, "Well, sailor, I'd say you're doing about three knots." "Three knots?" he asked. "What in the hell does that mean?" She replied, "You're 'knot' hard, you're 'knot' in, and you're 'knot' getting a refund!"

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Not wishing to miss out on the fun American Gooner nipped in with - The CIA had an opening for an assassin. After all of the background checks, interviews, and testing were done there were three finalists, two men and a woman. For the final test, the CIA agents took one of the men to a large metal door and handed him a gun. 'We must know that you will follow your instructions, no matter what the circumstances. Inside this room, you will find your wife sitting in a chair. Kill her!' The man said, 'You can't be serious. I could never shoot my wife.' The agent said, 'Then you're not the right man for this job.' The second man was given the same instructions. He took the gun and went into the room. All was quiet for about five minutes. Then the man came out with tears in his eyes. 'I tried, but I can't kill my wife.' The agent said, 'You don't have what it takes. Take your wife and go home.' Finally, it was the woman's turn. She was given the same instructions to kill her husband. She took the gun and went into the room. Shots were heard, one shot after another. Then the agents heard screaming, crashing, and banging on the walls. After a few minutes, all was quiet. The door opened slowly and there stood the woman. She wiped the sweat from her brow, and said, 'This gun is loaded with blanks. I had to beat him to death with the chair.'

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Kiwipete, having finishred watching his video of The Wild Bunch, found time to - A young ventriloquist is touring the clubs and stops to entertain at a bar in a small town. He's going through his usual run of silly blonde jokes when a big blonde woman in the fourth row stands on her chair and says, "OK jerk, I've heard just about enough of your denigrating blonde jokes. What makes you think you can stereotype women that way? What do a person's physical attributes have to do with their worth as a human being? It's guys like you who keep women like me from being respected at work and in my community, of reaching my full potential as a person... because you and your kind continue to perpetuate discrimination against not only blondes but women at large. All in the name of humor." Flustered, the ventriloquist begins to apologize, when the blonde pipes up, "You stay out of this mister, I'm talking to that little on your knee!" r

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

At this point along comes Bernard - An Income Tax inspector walks into a synagogue and asks to see the rabbi. He is shown into the rabbi's office and is offered a seat. "Rabbi, I believe a member of your synagogue, Mr. Klutz, states on his tax return that he has donated $100,000 to the synagogue. Tell me, Rabbi, is this correct?" The Rabbi answers, "Yes, he will."

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Then who should come along but Decaf and he gives it some - Once upon a time a powerful Emperor of the Rising Sun advertised for a new Chief Samurai. After a year, only three applied for the job: a Japanese, a Chinese and a Jewish Samurai. "Demonstrate your skills!" commanded the Emperor. The Japanese samurai stepped forward, opened a tiny box and released a fly. He drew his samurai sword and * Swish! * the fly fell to the floor, neatly divided in two! "What a feat!" said the Emperor. "Number Two Samurai, show me what you can do." The Chinese samurai smiled confidently, stepped forward and opened a tiny box, releasing a fly. He drew his samurai sword and * Swish! * Swish! * The fly fell to the floor neatly quartered! "That is skill!" nodded the Emperor. "How are you going to top that, Number three Samurai?" Number Three Samurai stepped forward, opened a tiny box releasing one fly, drew his samurai sword and *Swoooooosh! * flourished his sword so mightily that a gust of wind blew through the room. But the fly was still buzzing around! In disappointment, the Emperor said, "What kind of skill is that? The fly isn't even dead." "Dead is easy." replied the Jewish Samurai. "Circumcision...now that takes skill!"

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Then Cannon Balls arrives opn his show pony and says - Is it possible to kill a mother-in-law with newspaper?-Yes, if you wrap an iron in it.

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Then up pops Daz with - Two young children were playing in a sandbox when the boy needed to pee. Since his mother taught him to be polite and not talk about private matters in public, he remembered what his mother had said at a restaurant once to excuse herself from the table. "Will you excuse me? I need to go powder my nose." When he returned, the little girl looked at him and asked, "So? Did you powder your nose?" "Yes," he said. The little girl replied, "Well, then, you'd better close your purse because your lipstick is hanging out!"

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Not to be outdone Spinoza offered - Ethel goes to see Doctor Myers and tells him that she is feeling constantly tired and exhausted, especially after making love. "So how often do you make love, Ethel?" asks Doctor Myers. "I make love every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, doctor," she answers. "Well," says Doctor Myers, "maybe you should cut out Wednesdays?" "No, that’s not really a good idea," says Ethel, "that’s the only night I’m home with mine Arnold."

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

And Socrates came back with - Victor, Cyril and Abe met up in Brent Cross shopping centre for a chat and a coffee. Victor says, "Do you two know that last night I made love to mine Leah three times and this morning, as soon as I awoke, she told me how much she loved me." "Mazeltov," says Cyril, "but last night I made love to mine Sarah four times and this morning, as soon as I awoke, she told me I must be the world’s greatest lover." Abe doesn’t say a word and just takes another sip of his coffee. So his two friends ask him how many times he had made love last night. "Vell if you must know," replies Abe, "I made love to mine Becky vonce." "Only once?" says Cyril, "And what did Becky say to you this morning?" "She said, ‘Don’t stop!’"

old man of hoy
March 04, 2005

Plato told me this one - Avrahom is a lively 75 year old widower. He is also very rich. One day, he turns up at the Kosher K restaurant in Hendon to meet some of his friends and he has a gorgeous young redhead on his arm. She has sex appeal in plenty and listens to Avrahom’s every word with great attention. All his friends think she is as sexy a lady as they have seen for years. When she excuses herself to go to the ladies, Avrahom’s friends rush over to him. "Avrahom, how did you manage to get such a lovely girlfriend?" they ask. "Girlfriend?" says Avrahom looking upset, "what do you mean girlfriend? Naomi is my wife." They were shocked. "So how did you persuade Naomi to marry you?" "I lied about my age," Avrahom replies. "Don’t tell us that you told Naomi that you were only 50?" "Of course not," smiles Avrahom, "I told her I was 90."

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Daz, why do you keep banging on about your,yawn,education ???. I am not and most likely the majority on here the slightest bit interested in it. You could be doing a bin-round in Dalston for all i care. Everyone has an education of some sort, you seem to be overly proud of yours - and equate it with things that are possibly not relevant too it. Escape from Colditz type connatations seem to be prevalent - a life of mediocrity and unhappiness avoided only by it's achievment. I have no problem with anyones achievments in life, only when they keep pointing them out and banging on about them. Ok Daz your a clever boy , that fact is established beyond a reasonable doubt. Happy, well, thats a little more contentious now , is it not?, judging by your erratic and volatile rants at times on here against the various posters who fall foul of your views or predjudices. I am not uneducated myself, nor do i lead a lfe of poverty or underachievment - so why should i be bothered about what you or anyone else might have done?. You may be a little paranoid about things Daz.

Steve Martin
March 04, 2005

Daz, I did not get much of an education, but for those that did,I think it's great, I have no axe to grind... I work at a large firm of solicitors, full of university educated people, very intelligent people, many having helped out many times since I first started working for law firms back in 1979, I feel a better person for it, just like you should for all your hard work you put in getting your education, I only hope my kids do the same and wish I had... However the ones at my work do not shove their education down my throat everyday, we speak, but I don't get talked down too... That's a thing well educated people don't normally do...

Bodies In The Box
March 04, 2005

You really have got problems haven't you Chocolate. A liar as well as a twister. Desperate to disparage others ideas, you resort to lying when all else has failed. You, shut me up! Don't make me laugh. I said I could see them scoring 3 or 4 against our defence, which was not far from what happened. So if that is the best that you can do then you're just making yourself look ridiculous as usual. Now about Cygan being a top 5 world defender..... that was one of yours wasn't it? Funniest thing I've ever heard.

Mee
March 04, 2005

As a relative newcomer to these marbled forum halls, I find the philosophic debate between some members to be quite interesting. However what is rather boorish is the lack of respect shown to an alternative view and the language used to frame such arguments. I can imagine that many genuine Arsenal supporters looking for a healthy football debate have gone elsewhere.

Daz
March 04, 2005

Well, it was a deliberately repeated gag, Cannon Balls, based on the fact that he kept refusing to address the question. Not to your taste, fair enough, but still intended in a light hearted kind of way. I agree that the philosophy thing has become intensely boring but for a while it had a certain degree of knockabout enjoyment. You know what though - most of the people who come on here and moan about non-football posts are a bunch of po-faced, boring E*Gers who never usually say anything worthwile on football or otherwise but seem to expect others to do it for them. I'll discuss anything - Ashley Cole, Protagoras, chocolate gooner, Rodney P, Wenger's goalkeeping selection - take your E*ging pick. One doesn't rule out the other. I have got an education, cannonballs, and oddly I'm not in the least ashamed of it, in fact I think it does make me a better person. It is usually only the English who think that learning is something you should be ashamed of which is in itself the kind of appalling pretentiousness that leads middle class boys to become geezer-in-a-cab 'cos they're so worried of being thought a poof. But your thing with Phil, like your Jeremy Clarksonesque views on good solid men who build things and don't give heed to silly girlie topics, like your drivel about drunken jocks and show ponies, is a different kind of repetitive, like a dripping tap, like chinese E"Ging water torture in fact. Feel free to carry on with it because there is no shortage of space on here and you should post whatever you want, it's just incredibly tiresome and some indictment of you that it's so difficult to tell your own crap from that of your imposter or imposters (admittedly based on the flimsiest of skim reading of both).

chocolate gooner
March 04, 2005

How many of our players do you rate Bodies? How many have you slagged off? I’ll hazard a guess and say all of them… every single one. That is when you’re not slagging the manager off as well. Don’t make me laugh. In your post you implied that we had no hope… and I even cut and paste your own quotes at the time, which shut you up and now you want to say that you were only worried about the defence… put a sock in it. ACA, BSc… cry baby. Boo hoo I don’t like Senderos. daddy get me a new defender .. NOW!! Prat. Cheers. good night

AmericanGooner
March 04, 2005

Mee, our approach was within Spanish FA rules. Barca simplly took one of their promising players for granted and got caught napping. Also, he's very settled. Unless there is any statements he may have said to the contrary, he's Arsenal. Much to do about nothing Mee I think. He gets first team football and has a closer chance of being in the spanish national team than he could have at Barca, by all accounts he's picked up language, likes the city, loves the club and his teammates. **** Steve Martin, I want to finish ahead of Man Yoo, also by finishing third we have to qualify for the group stages, which means players back early and chances of injuries and you never know what may happen while we seemingly have an easy game against Bucharest or some small club in the middle of nowhere. As far as Wenger having a press conference. I'm firmly against it. We would seem weak and whining (sorry us yanks leave the 'g' out) and it would encourage Sam to do it since he thinks he's got us psyched out about it. The best response is to give them a footballing lesson the pitch. I'd love an emphatic 3-0 win. **** Definitely a gap 'tween Cole and Clichy. Cole is arguably the best LB in the world so there will be a gap with any LB that takes over that position from him. We could get just about any starting LB in the PL and the gap will still be there. With a run of games Clichy there is every indication that Clichy will improve leaps and bounds. Of course he won't replicate Cole right away but in time, and won't be too long, he'll be a very very good player. He will get the presense of Cole when he has settled into the position and he and the club are successful...just like Cole became. Put it into a bit of perspective. **** I'll get stick for saying this but Quincy should be converted to winger and we play him like Man Yoo does Ronaldo. They are both very similar players. Move Freddie to left where he likes it. Quincy would terroize full backs with his pace and dribbling ability.

Bodies In The Box
March 04, 2005

See in Chocolate's world you're not allowed to say that you don't rate a player, you have to say that you like them regardless of what you believe and have seen with your own eyes. You are insane, thick. Strange place indeed, as I would have thought blind faith was a pointer to stupidity. And I know he has a rep for totally twisting what people say, but what I actually said re Chelsea was I could see them scoring 3 or 4, with the way our defence was playing at the time. So they scored 2. Proves how desperate he is really.

chocolate gooner
March 04, 2005

Bodies… BSc, ACA, Real fan and prat. Don’t compare Gaz’s posts to your own incessant and infantile bellyaching. Real fan indeed… that’s why you came on here and surrendered to Chelsea before a ball was kicked? That’s why spent most of last season slagging off Gilberto? That’s why you’ve now laid into a 19 y/o defender? All Arsenal needs are more 'real' fans like you… the club might as well shoot itself in the head. BSc… prat. Cheers.

Bodies In The Box
March 04, 2005

Gaz - I enjoy reading your posts, but it is amusing me the way you keep saying that you are not going to criticise Wenger followed by a criticism of him. Don't stress about it. Most sensible fans don't want him sacked in the summer. However the man deserves to be questioned on some of his decisions this year, just as he was unanimously lauded last season. It's only idiots who know nothing about what it's like to be a proper supporter, like Chocolate, who'd like to censor any negative appraisals of the great man. He has indeed screwed up massively with the whole goalkeeper situation and I fail to believe that he will let this summer pass without adding a top keeper.

chocolate gooner
March 04, 2005

Irrelevance piled upon rubbish upon twaddle upon piffle… and you get a murky melange of meaningless-ness. John D are you even from Planet Earth? The circumstances of a philosopher’s birth are irrelevant. The only person who raises it as an issue is you. I don’t care if the Sophists were born fat or thin, tall or short; the only issue is their practice of charging and collecting big fees for their services. This practice is not comparable to either soliciting for money or having a prominent individual like Alexander the Great approach someone like Aristotle for tuition or a professor’s salary or Donald Duck dietary habits or any other irrelevance you care to dream up. It is fairly self evident that if your ideas are for sale then they have to be attractive and for them to be attractive they can’t be seen as threatening and if you’re adjusting your ideas to suit the public taste because you’re offering them for sale then they can’t be cutting edge, whatever they are. It is also not a credible argument to say that because Socrates didn’t write anything down then no sophist should have to write anything down either. Plato wrote loads, as did Aristotle and they were following Socrates teachings… and most of it slagged them off and yet we have nothing. What is your explanation for the dearth of written sophist stuff… were they all amputees with no hands? Were they a bit tight in spite of their substantial remuneration, which meant that they didn’t fork out for writing materials? Did the Athenian cats at that time have a preference for sophist homework? It is even more irrelevant to talk about Plato slagging them off. We know and it’s been factored into the discussion. It doesn’t explain over 2000 years of odium. I have no idea what planet you inhabit but nobody parrots Plato… or Hegel or Marx or even Russell at any university that I’m aware of. In most cases you’d get a balanced view. Yes Plato’s approach led him to conclusions that were totalitarian in nature but the context is (1) that he always started from the basis of what he thought was good for the State and then made the individual fit in with it… so to speak. (2) He didn’t envision a state as big as the Soviet Union or even Botswana … the political unit he was devising his system for was supposed to be the size of ancient Athens, which was probably the same size as today’s Nottingham. He explicitly says that size of the state should be limited. (3) He was reacting to the shambles that was Athenian democracy. It doesn’t absolve him of his more illiberal ideas but you need an imagination to put what he said in its proper context… and you’ve got no imagination. If you want to make the relative social status of Socrates, Aristotle and Plato an issue then do it properly and then contrast it with those of known sophists… but it isn’t a credible argument to suggest that we hold Plato and Aristotle’s status against them when the only issue is the QUALITY of their ideas. Some of Plato’s relatives where Oligarchs who wanted the vote limited to those members of society who made an active contribution and others were Democrats… there were no tyrants, so you are wrong and in any event Plato rejected a political career… so again, what the hell is your point? And if these sophists were, some how, working class heroes; why did the general populace see them as odious? Athenians weren’t stupid and not all Socratic philosophers came from wealthy backgrounds - if that is what you’re trying to suggest. I have never said that you have to starve to be a proper philosopher… so please stop making things up. Try answering some questions for a change.. like a) how is it possible that these guys could offer advice to Tyrannies and Democracies alike… for a fee and still manage to have cutting edge views? b) Can you name any society in which the middle classes have agreed to pay for a cutting edge education? c) Can you name any society in which the most radical thinkers were given special favours like tax breaks and exemption from military service? d) Can you please tell me how it is possible that a Sophist like Isocrates can insult other sophists in terms very similar to ones Plato uses and sophism remain a coherent philosophy… and if it isn’t coherent… how can you possibly know that it is cutting edge? I don’t quite know why you imagine that Russell is this mysterious figure that we all have to google to find out about… he was Nobel prize winning public figure… so what’s your point? ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS ….

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 04, 2005

And one more for luck: KENY CRAIG(Hypnotist): Look into my eyes look into my eyes, not around my eyes but in the eyes. When you come back you will believe that Chelsea are and always have been a big successful club… never been in debt… never had crowds regularly under 15,000 and a stadium that would have looked at home in the Scottish 2nd division... you will believe all your new players have been paid for from the proceeds of your success and not the Russian Mafia... 3 2 1- you're back in the room.

Gaz ( B/Wood 0
March 04, 2005

I'm sure you've all seen it but for those of you who havent, and both like little Britain, and hate chelscum its quite good (made all the better for knowing that Matt Lucas is a big Arsenal fan): ANDY: Now Roman, I've got all these prospectuses for you to look at of possible football clubs... ROMAN: I want that one ANDY: You want that one, well that one's Chelsea. I don't think it's quite what you're looking for - perhaps a better investment would be Arsenal ROMAN: That one ANDY: Again that's Chelsea, remember you said you didn't like Chelsea, you said their fans represent a small minority of thuggery - henceforth the end of football ROMAN: Yeah I know ANDY: But you want that one? ROMAN: Yeah, Chelsea ANDY: And you're sure, 'cos once you've bought it, it will be big kurfuffle to change it back ROMAN: Chelsea A few years from now… ROMAN: Chelsea are s***, I wanna buy Arsenal

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

I see that Bisto's been at graft again those gags were being told at the Lane when leather laced balls were still in use. Which was when they last won the title. Daz after your excruciatingly boring posts on Philosophy which numerous people on here have complained about,i don't think peeps that you are in any position to lecture anyone on theirs. We have only just got over the:"Dem is da rules" ones that you inflicted 'ad nauseam' on the forum, and which at the dropping of a chocolate wrapper you will still regurgitate like something that you have eaten, but are unable to digest, but reluctant to spew out and be rid of.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 04, 2005

Oh Arsene, you had to go and spoil it didn't you! I was thoroughly enjoying the warm after-glow only a penalty shoot-out victory can give you, when he's come out with the bombshell that Almunia might still have a future with us as our no 1! As I said the other week I'm not going to criticise Arsene until he has a chance to sort out some of the problems we obviously have, but I had it down as a 'given' that whatever happens in the summer we'll have a new no 1 in between the sticks next season. Now though, after his first half decent display, (OK, that's unfair, he made some fantastic saves), Arsenes now suggesting our keeper problems are over! I'm only guessing (and hoping!), that his comments are an obvious attempt at giving him some confidence in the lead-up to the most important stage of ourseason. Of course Almunia was good, and without him we wouldn't have won as he made a fantastic save to keep us in the game and then made two very good penalty saves to see us into the last 8. I was really pleased for him as heseems a pretty decent geezer, but he's not now, and never will be good enough to be our no 1 and I'm sure Arsene, even after those comments realises that. Looking at the game itself I'm glad to say that Lupoli justified my reasons for starting him (not!) by having a 'bit of a mare!'To be fair to him he simply didn't have the strength to take on two big experienced and battle hardened pros. Give him a year or two though and I've got a feeling this kid could be quite useful. Mind you, Quincy certainly looks useful now. He changed the game for us and could be someplayer. Pace and skill is something all defenders fear and he's got lots of it. Theres only one possible problem with him. I'm wondering if his final ball is ever going to match his approach play. I hope that's something that will improve because added to the strengths he's already got he could be some player, although I'm not sure what position he'll play on a full time basis. If Quincy was very good, Freddie was absolutely pants! I hope after that woeful display that Arsene gets the message that he's not now, never has been, and ever will be ably to play as a striker. Lets be honest, the only reason he stayed on the pitch was to take that penalty, which I'm glad to say he put away with some aplomb. As for the rest of the side I wasimpressed (or is that confused!) with Senderos who seems to be going through a phase of having a good then bad game. I don't think theres any doubt though that theres something I like about him and he keeps reminding me of a young TA6. Until he gets a run in the side, and I mean 10-12 games,and in a settled, and more solid back-four, then its always going to be difficult for him to show us his true potential. Pascal was quite solid although to be fair United didn't have much of an attacking threat. Gael was his normal impressive self whilst I thought Ralph was OK, if not spectacular. PV4 was very good at times and no-ne could question his commitment to the side on that performance. As for Flamini I really like him. Does nothing spectacular but doesn't give the ball away. He's a real'roll your sleeves up' kind of player and he's really impressed me. AC3 looked quite good on the left-hand side of midfield, or was it up front? Was good to see Alliadiere back and was gutted he never put that chance away. Cesc was very good and its easy to forget he's only 17. He's sure tobecome a great player for us and how about giving him the no 10 shirt when DB10 finally retires? As for our penalties I was genuinely shocked at how good our penalties were. In all my time of watching shoot-outs I cant remember seeing 4 such good penalties. Unbelievable stuff. All in all,considering our injuries and suspensions a hard fought but good win. Roll on Bolton away. Come on Arsenal

Mee
March 04, 2005

snoggins; Sorry - I must be gettting confused with Reyes and his mother Gypsy Rose Lee

snoogins
March 04, 2005

Mee! Fibreglass is here on his own his family are back in spain.

No Prisoners
March 04, 2005

What is it with Manure, always trying to out do US at every turn, now they go and get two players sent to prison

Hi Ho Hi Ho
March 04, 2005

..it off to work we go. You very funny man, Mr EEG but Ho understand when that now you want talk penthouse pet with Ha Low. One time you want to burn Ho's bottom with light bulb just like Ha Low with fat Tenerife slapper - that make Ho laugh and laugh! Story very funny - nearly as funny as Mr Daz with his cream of sum yung gi joke.

East End Gooner
March 04, 2005

Hi Ho - How is it going? Been a while I know but it was getting too crowded at the Bailey with so many lining up for your "wares". And I told you about giving credit. Its only going to hurt. Or was that something else? Anyway, I have found someone who can introduce me to Penthouse Pets so your man breasts have lost a little of their appeal. Dont take it personally but Thai ladyboys are a bit last year. Though ditch the lady bit and Phil The Gooner might be interested.

Ho
March 04, 2005

Mr EEG, he very expertise. He number one American GI, rub soapy water on my man breasts, not hurt so much. You pay me now please, Mr EEG. No cheque.

Mee
March 04, 2005

Bernard - Perhaps the truth lies somewhere between our arguments. I have great respect for what you are saying and I hope it turns out to be true. I must do some work . . . .

Bernard
March 04, 2005

Mee, he may well listen, and he may well say no. I just can't believe the gross exagerration you seem to be giving to the likelihood he'll go back. As I said, it's not impossible he will, but there's not the slightest guarantee he will, and I feel that's also implied by the fact he left them in the first place to join a foreign (to him) club. And who knows what Defoe would do if Arsenal had shown an interest in signing him; sign for Chelsea instead maybe?

Mee
March 04, 2005

Steve Martin: I am a pure football romantic, but I also know that players are rarely fans of the club they play for, to many it is simply an economic decision to stay at one club - if it were not so why are we talking about offering Cole parity with Chelsea’s wages?

Mee
March 04, 2005

Bernard, Defoe is not playing in another country is he, and his signing for Tottenham was a default selection since Arsenal showed no interest in signing him. If Barcelona make overtures to Cesc he is bound to listen, besides which his mum will tell him they‘re going home!

Bernard
March 04, 2005

Steve, as everyone knows I'm not pedantic, but don't you mean Cardiff against Liverpool and Owen? See there's been no comment by Eskimo yet on Pennant's jail sentence.

steve martin
March 04, 2005

Bertie Mee... Football is romantasism, we get all starry eyed at times with it... I can remember Copenhagen, Cheslea 2-0 final at Cardiff, England -v- Spain at Wembley winning on Pens, at those particular times in my life, things were wonderful for a while, the world seemed great the sun shone, I could have shagged all night (their I go again)but then reality sets in Copenhagen against Gala, Wembley Agianst liverpool and Owen, OT should have been our 50th unbetaen game, where the game can make the clouds go grey, the rain pour, birds giving you the brush off, the bus goes by in the rain without stopping, you wages are 500 quid light, this month... Football is highs and lows in all our lives, but could we do without it...

Bernard
March 04, 2005

But Mee, aren't you saying Fabregas will definitely return to Barcelona, and none of what you just said suggests he will. As I said, he might do, but he also might not. Maybe he also kissed the Barcelona badge when he was there, before deciding to leave them. Doesn't mean he'll go back there, even if he did. And him supporting them doesn't mean he will either. Defoe is a gooner, but will he ever play for Arsenal. It's not impossible, but it's no guarantee he will.

East End Gooner
March 04, 2005

Fair enough Harlow though I think you are serverely underestimating the depth of our combined expertise in this area.

Mee
March 04, 2005

Bernard: I am simply saying that a week is a long time in football and that kissing the badge celebrations are no guarantee of a players loyalty. Just how many badges has john Hartson kissed? Wasn’t PV4 supposed to have broken down in Dein‘s house before swearing his alligience to the gun? later it transpires his Real contract was muddied by ‘image rights’ considerations causing a swift return to the ‘I could never leave the marble halls’ line.

james
March 04, 2005

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/sport.htm?in_article_id=339975&in_page_id=1771

steve martin
March 04, 2005

You see EEG, that's the point we could not talk for hours on the subject, if we did, it would take up a small amount of space on here, more because no one wants to hear about it, just like most do not want to hear about Philosophy on a football web site... However, I remain focused on the fact that I can do nothing to stop it, but feel I have the right to mention it at will... About seven years ago I read a couple of books on philosophy, they were interesting, but that’s about it, still have them somewhere at home… I liked the Logic side of it…

Cannon Balls
March 04, 2005

Three old football fans are in a church, praying for their teams. The first one asks, "Oh Lord, when will England next win the World Cup?". God Replies, "In the next five years""But I'll be dead by then", says the man.The second one asks, "Oh Lord, when will Man Utd next win the European Cup?".I'll The Good Lord answers, "In the next ten years"."But I'll be dead by then", says the man.The third one asks, "Oh Lord, when will Tottenham win the Premier League?". God Answers, "I will be dead by then!"

steve martin
March 04, 2005

did very well and the lads did us proud. Cygan was fantastic! Senderos was a 'proper' defender, he's got awesome potential. And thank you Mr Almunia. You may not be the answer in goal, but at least we have something positive to remember you with now. Our penalties were all, for once, excellent. Enjoy this victory guys.

FGL
KEEP ALMUNIA!
March 02, 2005

Drop the flapping German Lehmann & keep Almunia in from now on...he's clearly the keeper in form. Worryingly is that if we caznt score against Shef U...how then against the bloody Bayern?

david.d
March 02, 2005

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!......this team will be the death of me! do we like to do things the hard way or what. im so so relieved. what a game. thank you almunia you beauty. under strength but a great resolute performance. didnt cygan and senderos do well. senderos in time will be a very good centre half. they do look quite solid together dont they? viera was a real captain today and i dont care how much money chelsea throw at us. WE MUST NOT SELL ASHLEY COLE. GIVE HIM PARITY WITH THE OTHER TOP EARNERS BECAUSE HE DESERVES IT. god im so happy we are through. what a difference quincy made in the 2nd half. on this showing he should be playing more regularly. once again YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! WE'RE THROUGH!!

Bored
March 02, 2005

Well done Arsenal. BBC commentary was so annoying. Owusu was excellent. Glad for Almunia especially after some terrible dithering at crosses. Cygan had another good game. Senderos I thought had his best game too.

puzzled
March 02, 2005

M*A*N*U*E*L!!!

Brazil 70
March 02, 2005

I intend to e-mail the BBC & complain about the commentators clear bias.If enough people did this it might pressure them into toning it down.

Richie
March 02, 2005

F****** brilliant. Top pens by Lauren, PV4, Freddie and Ash. We deserved that. There was only one team that wanted to win in open play. Justice was done. Well played Almunia. Unlucky to have to a pen re-taken after he saved it well I thought. Cygan had a blinder I thought. Senderos too had a good game. Quincy looks very good. Needs to get some shooting practice and have a bit more composure but he terrified the Sheff Utd defence. Well done on what was a very tricky game especially with the team we had out.

Cannon Balls
March 02, 2005

I see all of the usual suspects were offering unreserved supportfor the team on here again tonight!

Steve Martin
March 02, 2005

WHAT a game... 20 shots at goal, we should have scored at least 5... superb game for the Keeper, kept us in it on full time, with a tip over the bar... WEe really do have some great youngsters and that owusu kid, id faster than Dash Dash... Plenty to look forward to, another kicking at Bolton, by the end of that game we'll be having to rely on the under 17's for the rest of the season...

Brazil 70
March 02, 2005

What relief-Hopefully that represents a sea change in our luck & we can have a very positive end to the season.Well done that young team.

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

Overall we deserved it, created many chances and defended well considering the line up. Lupoli looked well out of his depth, owusu (is that right) looked pacy and skilful, TH in the making! BBC commentators are disgustingly biased. Come on Arsenal!!!!

Cannon Balls
March 02, 2005

Come the hour cometh the keeper,step forward Manuel Almunia!!!!

__
March 02, 2005

ALMUNIA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arsenal wtf?
March 02, 2005

Manuelito !!!

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

Sorry about that guys.

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Cole v Kenny 4:2 We're through

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Harley v Almunia saved 2:3

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Ljungberg v Kenny 2:3

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Quinn v Almunia saved 2:2

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Vieira v Kenny 2:2

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Jagielka v Almunia 2:1

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Lauren : Kenny 1:1

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Gray v Almunia 1:0

Edward Gibbon
March 02, 2005

The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people as equally true; by the philosopher as equally false;and by the magistrate ,as equally useful.

Richie
March 02, 2005

Remember their keeper coming off his line v West Ham when pens were taken. Hope the ref keeps eye out for this.

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Almunia - Shot stopper!

goonerguru
March 02, 2005

Who's your money on,their GK or ours???

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

Should have buried this lot. Great effort though considering the team and pressure of the situation.

Richie
March 02, 2005

Pens it is...Sheff Utd have been playing for pens since the match has kicked off. A sterling effort by our lot but now it's down to sheer nerve.

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Penalties! Kop End

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

Pens-wer'e Fu*$ed.

Richie
March 02, 2005

Alialidere (sic) is on and nearly scored with first touch. Sheff Utd goal under siege. Final ball is just missing. Still looking for the killer pass when a shot would be better option. PV4, FL, AC, GC, KT would be my guess for the pen takers.

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Richie, I'm listening to the game, normally I would be watching it live at the Southern Cross, but Copenhagen is snowbound tonight, what's new?

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Sheffield have four penalty takers from the other night! Who have we got? Ljungberg, Vieira, Cole, Lauren, CYGAN!

Richie
March 02, 2005

James, ta for explanation. Sounds a bit technical to me! Have you got access to the game?

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Regarding the game, I do not want penalties with this inexperienced side. Cygan; post... Argggg...

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Richie, mIRC (Internet Relay Chat Client) "used" to be a place where forumites could chat on matchdays, Nobby the Moose was always present, well tonight the privilege has been denied because some schmuk (a manc, my guess) has locked the chat room in a whanton show of bravardo.

Richie
March 02, 2005

James, not sure what you mean....0-0 after 90 mins. ET about to begin. We need to take some more shots, keeper looks a bit shakey at times. If pens then I fear the worst.

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Can anyone dislodge the Manc on "#arsenal" (mIRC), who has locked the channel out for fellow Gooners?

Richie
March 02, 2005

0-0 60 mins. 1st half forgettable. We are showing a lot more in the 2nd half. Quincy has made some good runs. Close to scoring but no one to pick up the loose ball. Can't fault the players for the effort against a dogged if a little lucky Sheff Utd at times. Fabregas just scraped the top of the bar with a pile driver. A much better game than the 1st half. Come on Arsenal!

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

Are we now getting there? Are your rants against EEG, Doctors Daz and Decaf, did you give Harrow a hard time?, are they all to do with your perception of the large remuneration they DEMAND for services rendered. Strange use of demand, of course - what is that giving away. Are they highwayman in your imagination - does a miner DEMAND, does he confront the wage's clerk with 'stand and deliver' or does he EARN his wedge from an honest week's toil? In any event I think we have got you to the point where this whole discourse has been leading for several days. Just what is your knowledge on the DEMANDS The Sophists made, how much did they charge per hour, did they get four weeks holiday, was there a final salary pension plan? I suppose it all boils down, inevitably - sorry Nico and OMoH, to "What's a Greek urn?"

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 02, 2005

Gaz - if you want to talk football please find the relevant site, your ramblings have no place in this highbrow forum, begone.

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

At last, John Major talking sense!

Bodies In The Box
March 02, 2005

Sorry to the other posters, but f**k off Chocolate, you total c**t. Have you any idea what you sound like?

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 02, 2005

Blimey! Forgot about tonights game! Even with all the injuries we'll still be able to put out a side far stronger than anything we put out in the Carling Cup. Its because of this I'd like to see young Lupoli start. I keep hearing good things about him and would like to see him start in a side with far more 1st team regulars as he'd get far more chances to score, and therefore shine. Whoever plays good luck to them. Come on Arsenal.

John Major
March 02, 2005

Thanks for that chocolate gooner, a little bit of sunshine during a grey day, who needs that boring lowerclass soccer-game to intervine a serious discussion.

Gaz ( B/Wood )
March 02, 2005

Firstly I dont think Jermaine Pennant can have any complaints about his jail sentance. Any one of the three things he did wrong were bad enough, but together, and coming so soon after another ban means he's one very stupid young man. He'll get out early no doubt and in the summer will get his move to Birmingham. I just hope he's learned his lesson and takes the chance Steve Bruce has given him. Ed-Thanks for the link to those photos-they're superb. Wonder how Arsenal World found out about them? Incidently, regarding AG and the missing 24 hour web-cam. Forget about it, its gone and wont be returning. I spoke to someone in the 'know' today and there are very good reasons why it was pulled off air. Wont go into it but, as I said, it was for a very good reason, so we'll all have to settle for the Arsenal.com version from now on. Come on Arsenal.

Déjà Vu
March 02, 2005

goonerguru: I was reminiscing after reading " I was a half back in my time,midfielder in todays terminolgy,I was small(still am of course),hard as nails(not any more),bite your legs sort of guy,I worked on the princible that it didn't matter how big they were,when you put them on the floor they were all the same size," It couldn't have been you, then.

chocolate gooner
March 02, 2005

As always the point eludes you. The issue isn’t receiving money, but demanding and being paid very substantial wedges of money for services rendered. Even you can spot the difference, surely (what am I saying? Of course you can’t) No leader pays any philosopher a big salary for uncomfortable advice… it never happens and definitely not to so many individuals across so many differing governments. And no Philosopher wears his belief so lightly as to spout whatever a pay master wants to hear… Socrates died for his beliefs, yet this cutting edge philosophers of yours are accepting large wedges of cash as well other financially beneficial favour without compromising those cutting edge and radical beliefs of theirs. A likely story. And furthermore we know that a lot of parents objected to Socrates teaching their kids but they flocked to the Sophists and PAID… does that sound like a radical education to you? Since when have the middle-classes flocked to pay for cutting edge and radical education instead of the education that will help little Johnny get on in the City… or politics or whatever? Again you make my point for me… if the sophists are having differences of opinion to the extent where Isocrates echoes Plato’s criticism of the Sophists while being a supposed sophist himself… that ain’t just a disagreement is it? Finally, to help you with an analogy… Have seen the movie Quo Vadis? Do you remember Nero’s favourite adviser Petronius, a cynical and rather sophisticated leech who said whatever he thought Nero wanted to hear… there’s your later day Sophist. Cheers.

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

Came to get some opinion on tonight's game, thought it might be of concern, obviously not. Philosophy thing getting very, very tedious chaps. Come on you Gooners.

John Major
March 02, 2005

Just love all these Sophisticated debates, it's so interesting.

AmericanGooner
March 02, 2005

In my XI tonight I would make make the midfield Freddie on the left, Vieira, Flamini and Quincy on the right and the strikers, Cesc as support striker and Lupoli as the main striker. **** Parkerknoll, I have seen less than a handful of Hamburg games but I know the defender you are referring to. I didn't know he was dutch as well, I thought he was probably from northern Africa. He just joined though, didn't he? I don't recall him playing centrally for them last season. I will keep an eye on him. He seems to fit the bill in terms of height, long legged as well if I recall but don't know about his pace. **** Interesting thing is Wenger was spot on about the refereeing. He told van Persie the referee will be looking to send off one of ours to compensate Soton and sure enough it happened. Admittedly, van Persie made it easy for him.

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

See, you are getting there. Don't get too hooked up on the analogy - it wouldn't stand a lot of close inspection. Just think of a Ridley as, say, a 21st century fat, overpaid, corrupt non philosophical Sophist, Ferguson as Socrates, Allardyce as Plato and Judge JohnD as the 50th century enlightened football guru who writes the most important book on coaching in the history of the world - bit like Russell before him. And 'cocoa' - well, just a clown with one an a too many.

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

Although you haven't got it, you are getting there chocolate. I didn't say it, in the sense you mean, other philosophers said it. Yes? I am pointing out to you that philosophers, Sophists even, have different opinions. Yes? It is allowed. I can understand what I like from the varied views. Because? I didn't get stuck on the first page of your google search, thinking that was all there was to be said, and by rushing into print in the crusade to appear learned - got stuck on the horns. Is it philosophically unacceptable then, to demand money for one's labour? You repeat this fact and apply it pejoratively in almost every post. Do you sit on the street soliciting the price of a cuppa because it is not in your nature to take a wage? Did Russell not rage against much of the political establishment in his day? Did he not earn a fair crust from his writings? Was he a philosopher? Do you ever get anything right?

chocolate gooner
March 02, 2005

Nonsense… Arsenal whilst not the darlings of the press still have their defenders… including guys like Kevin McCarra and Ian Ridley so you have another damp squip of an analogy there. What a shock!! There’s no team in history whose reputation isn’t in line with reality to an extent. Even the most rabid anti-foreigner, little Englander tab hack knows that he’ll look foolish if he was to question our quality, entertainment value and verve… and if you want a different opinion there are always the view of foreigners who are interested in our game but who are, by and large, impartial. The classical world wasn’t just Athens… but spread as far Egypt to places like Alexandria, so your analogy is rubbish. How can Plato sucker everybody? The whole classical world was stupid?? Our reputation as a club is far from odious… we may not get the praise our achievements deserve in the tabs but our reputation is so far from odious that you have to be having a laugh. On the whole every team will have their admirers (even Revie’s Leeds, Bobby Gould's Wimbledon) and it’s detractors and while we can always quibble about fairness… no one has a reputation that is entirely and totally undeserved… except the Sophists (according to you) who were handsomely rewarded, very well connected but unfairly traduced. Riiiight.

Daz
March 02, 2005

Careful what you wish for, Harrow, it might just come true. Anyway, perhaps you'd like to regale us with some more of your harrowing tsunami tales and people you knew who knew people who...just to change the mood and force us to recognise our true place in the scale of things. Justice demands that it is recorded that I made a valiant attempt to switch subjects to Aliadiere and tonight's game but no - Bernard demanded a definition of philosophy. However I have to confess to being bored E*Gless by this topic although you're quite wrong that it is all posturing - chocolate is wrong and I'm stubborn in an argument.

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

chocolate: your naïve assembling of confusions in that cell make no coherent points. I'll try a few changes to that drivel, like I did before, to see if you get the point - no chance of course. Imagine it is 5000 AD and in some Forum of the future a clown called 'cocoa' - I know - is trying on a philosophical argument about 21st century football………… “the odium which the Arsenal incurred, not only with the general public, referees, Sir Alex of Manchester and the football authorities, but with Matthew Lawton and other journalists was due to the intellectual merit of Wenger and their classical football….What is so odious about intellectual merit? " …………. "There were students in Ferguson's own school who had a classical approach as well; the Ronaldos and the Giggs were from the 'footballing' schools and they were profoundly technical, so why would Ferguson and Lawton take particular offence at the Arsenal and their intellectual football?"……….."And how come that odious reputation didn’t stop Henry, Vieira. Campbell and other followers earning large fees as well as getting tax exemptions. Sorry but that just doesn’t hang together… yet Judge JohnD himself acknowledges that the general public and other fans considered The Arsenal odious… and we are meant to believe that all this was solely because of their intellectual football?? No reputation is entirely undeserved…"………..Get your cloak and laurel wreath…you're out of here.

Cannon Balls
Agony Uncles column
March 02, 2005

aah Bisto, Phil, the stress of trying to lead a muli-personality life is getting to be too much for you. With your obvious limited mental capacity even one is more than you can cope with. Then there are those sudden urges to fly off to the far-east after you get those queer feelings come on. Your bizarre posts about children and slaughter houses. And this odd pretence of being a gooner,the lies and contridictions,the mythical brother who is a season ticket holder at Chelsea and so forth; oh dear you are an oddball. It's best that you seek help with your problems,how is the drinking water in Glasgow?. Perhaps you should use bottled or boil it first before drinking it?. Don't start to get paranoid now, and start thinking that someone is following you, because they might be..

chocolate gooner
March 02, 2005

Bernard … you make my point exactly. If you take a wider definition of philosophy then everything from mathematics to cutting edge science, like quantum physics gets called Philosophy… and before you know it, you’re including stuff like advertising and the such like… that is before you’ve dealt with things theology and even literature. In my opinion that is plain silly because philosophy then becomes anything and everything. And that doesn’t make sense. For the purposes of this discussion Joshua’s definition is a very reasonable one. Cheers… … … … … … John D, you bore me. The issue has never been Protagoras or Gorgias but “Sophism”, Geddit? The Epicureans weren’t hated and yet they solicited money? What’s your point? Are you so thick that you can’t tell difference between soliciting money and demanding payment? If you were an Epicurean, you were a philosopher engaged in philosophy first and foremost… if you were a Pythagorean, you were a philosopher first and foremost… but if you were a Sophist you didn’t have to be a philosopher and neither did you even have to agree with a fellow sophist… so much so that Isocrates was insulting the sophists whilst he was considered one himself!! You claimed that the sophists were radical, cutting edge philosophers… who never the less were well connected, very well paid and even got themselves tax exemptions. So I ask you again to tell me where in history cutting edge philosophers have managed to garner all these advantages whilst saying things that the powers that be found troubling? And please remember that they weren’t just big in Athens but throughout Greece... big in democracies, big Tyrannies... and still cutting edge and daring??. Meanwhile Plato was writing a book in which he took elements of the government of the Athenian’s enemies, the Spartans, and offered it to the Athenians as viable mode of government…. how conservative is that?? The reason you find yourself writing ever sillier and sillier posts is that nothing you say is based on principle or belief… it is just the result of your allergy. I have disagreed with Nico and I’ll do so again if it is what I happen to believe. That doesn’t mean that he never makes sense… nor does it excuse you cutting a quote from a non-related issue and pasting it but I suppose that as a silver surfer you have a superior grasp on morality. To make matters worse for you I googled this lot. Poor you. Cheers.

East End Gooner
March 02, 2005

Then again Daz - Harrow IS a corporate lawyer!

goonerguru
March 02, 2005

Deja Vu,I could have been,but I haven't got a clue what you are talking about(nothing new there then).

geoff
March 02, 2005

Cannon Balls.I dont know who bisto is so go and f*** yourself youy little perv.It appears that if anyone posts here apart from the regulars it must be Bisto posting.I think you are posting to yourself making conversation because you are a sick lonely jock.

Déjà Vu
March 02, 2005

goonerguru: I remember you; didn't you play for Norseman in the early 60's?

Harrow Gooner
March 02, 2005

How dull is this board getting - the philosphy braggadocio (and it seems from Daz's posting that there is nothing more to it) almost makes me want some of the Phil the Manc baiting back. Tried, tested & got the philosophy T shirt (if one can call directing a Sartre play that) & it is still incredibly dull. Daz & Choc have been baiting each other since I joined the forum and while it was funny for a while it is getting ridiculously boring.

Hippocrates the Hippoptamus
March 02, 2005

Spuds!, Spuds!..Glorious, half-baked, Spuds! Spuds!,Spuds!

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 02, 2005

Anyone hear that plum Taylor defending Pennant on the radio, he thinks footballers should not serve custodial sentences but do community service. Is it not time this overpaid Lowery lover should do the wider community a service and E*G off!

goonerguru
March 02, 2005

I met a sophist last night down the pub,in fact he was sophist he could hardly walk,boom,boom.

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

...and edpecially Irish Sophists.

Cannon Balls
March 02, 2005

aah!Bisto,i intend to keep posting and banging on about Spuds and if you dont like my posts, then dont read them sunshine. I dont like yours either. Unlike you though i use my own handle not other peoples you silly tosser kant.

East End Gooner
March 02, 2005

Quite right Daz - and perhaps I should come over all Bernard and get riled by your inappropriate label. Corporate law is so eighties (well mid 90s as far as I was concerned). I see myself much more as a media lawyer - apparently "one of London's leading" according to last Saturday's Times...

Nouveau Soccer
March 02, 2005

Daz, PPE, eh? Let me guess, Merton? What year?

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

Everyone, yes Bernard - except those bloody Sophists, of course.

Ken Livingstone
March 02, 2005

I know of a Sophia who was not a philosopher. She was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar when i met her. Would you like a Slow Screw Against The Wall she purred,er,just a G an T, thanks i politically correctly replied. But it was not long before we were at it like bunny rabbits, discussing gay right issues for refugees from the Congo living in high-rise flats in Hackney. Also subjects like the meaning of Marxist-Leninist theory and their impact on motorists trapped for hours on end in traffic jams, and commuters on the underground. What does it mean then i asked her.You tell me was her astute reply. Well Mao once said, that a philosopher politician is like military intelligence,a contridiction in terms. Royal Philosophers are a danger too. Mi5 are under strict orders if the Queen gets shot ,to shoot Prince Charles.

East End Gooner
March 02, 2005

Its funny Bernard but, when sitting in a chair somewhat euphemistically given the pre-fix "wheel", brilliantly placed to face the wall for about an hour or two while I waited for an x-ray on my ankle a year or two back, I reckon even Plato would have found it ****ing difficult to be philosophical.

Bernard
March 02, 2005

Judge, that would appear to be an equally wide defintion than Daz's. Anything other than dogma and knowledge, though can't dogma be based on knowledge. Oh well, maybe everyone in the world's a philosopher to some extent.

Niall
March 02, 2005

Why did I choose to study philosophy? Why, after 18 years of working in the “real” world, would I choose to leave the comfort of my complacent and often predictable lifestyle? A way of life that consisted of 90 minutes to two hours a day caught in traffic, 45 to 75 phone calls a day, a rushed Rolaids-inducing business lunch, an overflowing inbox of poorly written e-mails, imaginary corporate fires, and enough inane and idle chitchat to make living on the ninth level of Dante's Hell feel merely like enduring a bad comedian on amateur night at Yuk Yuks. And oh, yes, at least 10 parking tickets a year. All this and a steady paycheque I left behind to pursue a professional career in the academic world. Some called it foolhardy. I called it liberation. Voltaire said: “We use ideas merely to justify our evil and speech merely to conceal our ideas.” It seems like a good thing to say. Techniques of persuasion, rhetoric and beautiful metaphors become the tools of modern-day sophists as they attempt to tweak and twist hearts, minds and imaginations. Political figures, writers, entertainers, ministers, artists, the media and the like offer up ideas about life and how to see the world as if we were all eating at some kind of disinterested all-you-can-eat philosophical buffet of detached thoughts and ideas. Today's main course is rhetoric. In the same way, lifestyle advertising spouts its own mediated ilk and should, at best, be seen as a muddy mixture of conflicting messages, assumed premises and shoddy conclusions. Global village? Indeed. The other day, I found out the hard way what Sartre meant when he said: “Hell is other people.” Someone said to me, in a rather cold and condescending tone, after hearing I was pursuing a post-graduate degree in philosophy: “That and a quarter will get you a phone call.” Not having the sharp sense of discernment required to realize that this person had just trampled on my passion for the past 12 years and offended every sensibility I've ever entertained, and as demeaning as the word “that” was, I still sheepishly grinned and responded with: “Yep, that's what a lot of folks have to say.” I left the room with the conversation ringing in my ears and wondered what that phone call might actually be like and who I might find myself talking to on the other end of the line. What if I could make one all-important phone call? What if I had only a quarter to spend? Who would it be? Christ, Plato, Descartes, Pascal, Gandhi? Or maybe Elvis? He might have a lot to say. I hear he was kind of chatty. Yes, I'm a philosopher and I am proud of it. I spend my time reading, thinking and considering ideas — ideas of other philosophers, theologians and political thinkers. I flavour their ideas with a less sophisticated material of my own deliberation, but I do examine, I do think, I do reflect. I get wound up when things are said that indicate a lack of reflection or consideration for the other. I believe that, like the worthless unexamined life, the unexamined idea is not worth having. We're all philosophers on some level. We all have ideas about religion and politics. We all have some version of the afterlife or perhaps no version at all. We all speak from a point of view, share a not-so-common perspective and will wax poetic on any number of issues if motivated by enough pain, passion, alcohol or anger. We find ourselves both liberated and free through the vehicle of choice or, as Rousseau proclaimed, we are bound, determined and chained to our circumstance whenever and wherever we go. Ideas are important. In some respects, they're a given. Some might say they are as accessible and plentiful as the grains of sand on the gritty seashore of the imagination. That may be true. It may be an experiential fact. Is it true, however, that popular ideas are readily put under the critical and philosophical microscope? Are the ideas of others challenged, criticized and reflected on? Can we say that, as active participants in a democratic society (whatever that means), we are willing and freely able to examine the ideas of others? Last year, I spent four weeks in Southeast Asia, primarily in Cambodia — a country that is beautiful, mysterious and tragic. Over the past four years, I have spent much time reading and thinking about the history of Cambodia and the plight of its people. Often referred to as the “sideshow” of the Vietnam War, this is a country that has been largely forgotten by the international community. Thousands dead from mindless, disinterested, video-game-like bombing, seven to 10 million land mines still lying active and dormant like a raw and lethal tumour. These pernicious little anti-personnel mines almost outnumber the current population of the country. Designed to maim and not kill, they have inflicted a horrific degree of physical and psychological pain on small rural communities throughout the country. Genocide. Thirty years of civil war, a war crimes trial still pending and one in three dead as a result of an idea. An idea about Marxism that went horribly wrong — a hyper-communistic, intellectual, academic idea. Some sideshow. It is precisely for this reason that I chose to study philosophy. I wanted to be able to stand on the other side of an idea and say with a great deal of historical and philosophical confidence that the idea must be examined and that it may be wrong. I had a deep desire to sharpen my skills as a critical thinker. I was and am still in search of first things. I am honing a keen interest in knowing exactly why it was I thought this was this and that was that. Roland Joffe, director of The Killing Fields, has said about the human condition: “We're a strange animal, so often destroying what we love for selfish ends and yet tantalized by the sense that there are other choices if only we had the strength to make them. In the politics of 400 years ago, we find the same questions we battle with today.” I agree. Fifty years ago, a man by the name of Saloth Sar and a small group of Cambodian academics, many of them former schoolteachers, went to France on scholarships to study. They found themselves drawn to a radical form of Communism and quickly joined arms in a metaphorical and nationalistic embrace. They were a small group of thinkers with extreme, desperate ideas about their country and the way things ought to be. They attended lectures, wrote papers and smoked French cigarettes. Twenty-five years after graduation, Pol Pot and the other members of this group were responsible for the deaths of millions of Cambodians. Appalling, severe and reprehensible. They saw it as their duty to punish, indoctrinate, detain and transform their friends and family. Obedience was demanded; questions were ignored and brushed carelessly aside. Hatred and fear were the weapons of this ideological regime. Death and destruction were the results. Thirty-three per cent of the country was wiped out. Disturbing numbers and frightening statistics merely approximate the violence and pain these sovereign tyrants rained down on their country. As detailed in Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, we can cry with the lives of those who survived and with the spirits of those who died: “The horror. The horror.” The Khmer Rouge were captured by an idea — a pernicious notion with brutal consequences. They were fascinated with power, infused with racism and bankrupt of any moral restraint. It has been noted that years before the regime was ruling Cambodia with lies, deception and the farmer's hoe, Pol Pot had spent much time secluded in Angkor Wat reading and studying Mein Kampf. Hitler's evil and inhumane doctrine influenced the lives of millions of others years later and miles away. One maniacal madman nurturing the other. Ideas must be examined. They must be challenged and sometimes they must be subverted. I will continue to examine, think and reflect. I encourage everyone to do the same because I believe a degree in philosophy and a quarter will get you a whole lot more than just a phone call. Philosophy cultivates an inquisitive spirit. It encourages the formulation of relevant, important and key questions. It enables one to choose and to choose with informed conviction. And it fosters an analytical and pensive heart. I am, however, open to the possibility that I may be wrong. If I am, perhaps you might find it useful to consider the existential implications the next time you drop a 25-cent coin into a pay phone and imagine this is it — your last conversation. Ian Wright-Wright-Wright.

geoff
March 02, 2005

Cannon Balls.Reading your posts today and yesterday regarding the spuds you appear to be an admirer of JOL and are hoping he leaves.I for one dont give a toss about them or care about who is in charge because they are finished.They had a half empty ground against WBA so snap out of your obsession.You are worried for some reason.

chocolate gooner
March 02, 2005

“the odium which the Sophists incurred, not only with the general public but with Plato and subsequent philosophers was due to their intellectual merit. The Sophists were prepared to follow an argument wherever it might lead them. Often it led them to scepticism." … so why would intellectual merit lead to odium? What is so odious about intellectual merit? What does Russell mean? Neither Plato nor Socrates were against a sceptical attitude; Socrates famously claimed to know nothing. There were students in Plato’s own school who had sceptical approaches as well; the Cynics and the Stoics were Socratic schools and they were profoundly sceptical, so why would Plato take particular offence at the Sophists and their scepticism? And how come that odious reputation didn’t stop them earning large fees as well as getting tax exemptions. Sorry but that just doesn’t hang together. History tells us that Greeks loved to argue and we know that they were fairly tolerant too, yet Russell himself acknowledges that the general public and other philosophers considered these Sophists odious… and we are meant to believe that all this was solely because of their intellectual merit?? No reputation is entirely undeserved. George W Bush may not be a total moron but his image in Europe and the middle East is deserved. The Tories have a reputation as the “nasty party”… that doesn’t mean that every Tory is a blood sucking vampire but they can be mean spirited. The point is that even a caricature has to have some link to reality… or else it just won’t be credible and above all else the bad reputation won’t last because at some point some one will say, “it ain’t so”. This is true for every situation I can think of… so why would the sophists be any different? Cheers.

steve martin
March 02, 2005

Imagining their likely origins in the prehistorical past, Plato argued that societies are invariably formed for a particular purpose. Individual human beings are not self-sufficient; no one working alone can acquire all of the genuine necessities of life. In order to resolve this difficulty, we gather together into communities for the mutual achievement of our common goals. This succeeds because we can work more efficiently if each of us specializes in the practice of a specific craft: I make all of the shoes; you grow all of the vegetables; she does all of the carpentry; etc. Thus, Plato held that separation of functions and specialization of labor are the keys to the establishment of a worthwhile society. The result of this original impulse is a society composed of many individuals, organized into distinct classes (clothiers, farmers, builders, etc.) according to the value of their role in providing some component part of the common good. But the smooth operation of the whole society will require some additional services that become necessary only because of the creation of the social organization itself—the adjudication of disputes among members and the defense of the city against external attacks, for example. Therefore, carrying the principle of specialization one step further, Plato proposed the establishment of an additional class of citizens, the guardians who are responsible for management of the society itself. In fact, Plato held that effective social life requires guardians of two distinct sorts: there must be both soldiers whose function is to defend the state against external enemies and to enforce its laws, and rulers who resolve disagreements among citizens and make decisions about public policy. The guardians collectively, then, are those individuals whose special craft is just the task of governance itself. AND THEN CAME THE FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION TO f**K IT ALL UP...

steve martin
March 02, 2005

A Sophist named Gorgias, argued (perhaps ironically) that: (a) Nothing exists; (b) If it did, we could not know it; and (c) If we knew anything, we could not talk about it. quite apt for this site...

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

Bernard: I can claim no qualifications as I have mentioned, just a little reading which should put me at a great disadvantage to that classical giant of The Forum, chocolatus. I always remember Russell's explanation, which was deceptively simple. If I've got it right he said something like it was the product of religious beliefs and scientific investigations. On the one hand we have dogma and on the other knowledge - everything in between is philosophy.

Bernard
March 02, 2005

Daz, so you say philosophy is speculation about the nature of the world, human existence and the nature of good and evil that is not susceptible to scientific resolution. So does that mean a philosopher is anyone who speculates about such issues, including someone who wonders whether they can be sure a computer in front of them exists when they stop perceiving it? If so, hasn’t every single person who’s ever lived on this earth been likely to wonder about the nature of good and evil, or the wider nature of the world, when it’s not open to scientific resolution? And wouldn’t that perhaps make everyone in the world a philosopher, or is there tighter definitions regarding how deeply you’ve thought about it, or whatever? If not, the term philosopher must be so loose as to be at best practically meaningless, or at worst close to worthless. Sounds like Harlow was right, Bertrand Russell was an old p*ss-artist.

Daz
March 02, 2005

Interestingly, EEG, the Sophists have been referred to as the corporate lawyers of their day which might explain why they became so E*Ging unpopular.

Niall
March 02, 2005

Sophistry has come back into popularity. Robert Persig's book "Zen and =the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" showed the power of Sophistry. IMO =Plato is the intellectual/philosophical equivalent of a stainless steel =straight jacket, the sooner you can get it off the sooner you'll be =free. Aristotle, even though derided in many classes today since his =phyiscs are obsolete, is still an inescapable part of the scientific =discipline, and finally the sole exposition of the greek "Atomists" was =preserved in Lucretius incredible book "On the Nature of the Universe." =Everytime I read it I shake my head and feel genuine remorse at these =intellectual giants who were blasted into obscurity for 2,000 years =because of plato's "dialogues". But at last, finally, the Atomists =opened up the universe to man, the solution to every problem imaginable =lies within our or our children's reach. On the other hand about all =Plato has ever done for mankind is create a minor industry for people =who are still trying to figure out where the lost continent of Atlantis ="really" was.

Bernard
March 02, 2005

Having said that EEG, I can get a bit philosophical about hospital waiting times and trolley occupency statistics in A&E departments, so I think I might be one too.

Niall
March 02, 2005

Most Sophists were non-Athenians who attracted enthusiastic followings among the Athenian youth and received large fees for their services. Sophists flocked to Athens no doubt due to the favorable attitude of Pericles towards intellectuals. Pericles was a staunch rationalist; he had been trained in music and political affairs by Sophists. He was associated with the great sophist Protagoras of Abdera and two important Presocratics: Zeno of Elea and Anaxagoras of Clazomenae. The latter taught that the universe was governed by pure intelligence and his assertion that the sun, moon and stars are red hot stones and not gods led to his prosecution for impiety. Perhaps the best illustration of Pericles's rationalism is a story told by Plutarch of how Pericles, when an eclipse of the sun (generally considered a bad omen) frightened the helmsman of his ship, held up his cloak before the helmsman's eyes and asked him if he thought that this was a bad omen. Upon receiving a negative answer, Pericles then asked the helmsman whether there was any difference between his holding up of the cloak before his eyes and the eclipse of the sun except that the eclipse was brought about by an object larger than the cloak (i.e., the moon). Pericles was no doubt applying knowledge he had obtained from Anaxagoras, who is generally credited with being the first to explain the true cause of solar eclipses. Pericles's rational approach to life and that of his circle of friends was as unpopular as his democratic politics among conservative groups in Athens, but it must have encouraged Sophists from all over the Greek world to flock to Athens as a potentially fertile ground for their teachings.

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

You seem to be telling us now that Protgoras and Gorgias are philosophers - right? Can you help me further by telling me of a Sophist who you consider was not a philosopher? Just one name will do. Not sure what you are saying about people you “had heard of”: just for the record had you heard of Russell, who, you might not have yet taken in, does a whole chapter on Sophists as philosophers in 'one of the most important philosophical works of all time' before Doctor Daz mentioned him? Yes or No will be ample. Your clutching at our very own bearded Greek's contribution and that of Gorgias - go on admit, that was hilarious: I am still yearning to discover what it was Kerferd said - is self-deception. This is typical of the exchanges "chocolate, it's useless arguing with you..You don't want to believe me? Fine, but that doesn't make you too clever and only slightly clever people will hear or sense the evidence".. "chocolate, I think you're being a bit harsh on sophists, who were a considerable and varied group of people. As such, a person who was a sophist by calling could easily also have been a philosopher. There is no contradiction there." You do not have to tell me any more what Plato's opinion was of the Sophists - I knew it before you googled - or that they were teachers of different disciplines - I knew it before you googled. I just do not revere Plato as you feel you have to in order to appear learned. Now here's another question for you - There's little doubt that The Epicureans lived a simple life but there is also no doubt that they solicited contributions because they depended, at least in part, on these for their financial needs. So does this not disqualify them in Chapter I of your guide to philosophy down the ages? By the way, and this is absolutely kosher, did you know, [cue google, google, google] that it was Epicurus, when alluding to his teacher Nausiphanes, who was the first person ever, in the history of all philosophy, to call anyone "A Mollusc"? Not too original are you?

Cannon Balls
March 02, 2005

The reason that other clubs have images on their websites of the Emirates stadium is because it gives them something to aspire too. Shite Hart Lane has the opposite effect, being used to show what a stuck in a rut second rate football club looks like after 50 years with out winning a title and when the only chance of salvation turns up,in the shape of Abramovichhe he takes one look around the shitehole flies off in his helicopter and buys Chelsea instead!. aa! Bisto, no wonder you live in Glasgow square dialer!. Well, bernie,rage,fred,gravy,disgusted,PTG,ptm,bob,dick,harry,knobend, and otherssilly twatish handles far too numerious to mention what inane predictions have you for tonight, we like a laugh, you have got them all wrong so far, the game on Sunday was a draw at 90 minutes, so you can't even claim that one dummy. The best bet going is to back Jol to be gone from Spuds at the end of the season or next week if they go out of the FA Cup tomorrow night.

East End Gooner
March 02, 2005

Daz - No surprise that anyone schooled in that half-arsed mish-mash of a "subject" should have to resort to making their living in fantasy.

East End Gooner
March 02, 2005

That means I must be a philosopher Bernard. If it wasn't just my ability to remember what I read, I must have a inate ability that allowed me to answer the questions.

Daz
March 02, 2005

Although I have to admit that this one is even testing my patience so if it's a war of attrition you're fighting, chocolate, you'r e on your way to winning it. Which puts you on a par with my two year old nephew who will only eat chicken nuggets at the moment. Anyway, I'm greatly looking forward to the game tonight which -surprisingly - I'm optimistic about. Having said that, the lure of Bolton away is not great and we could just send them a fax saying "sorry, couldn't be arsed. You have it." Would like to see Aliadiere again.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 02, 2005

Quite good piccies and a different perspective to the usual official ones. I heard an interview with a stadium expert last week who was commenting on the Wembley progress and the fact that the construction company would make a loss on the project, he also remarked about the number of Stadium constructors that are bankrupted in the process of seeing through their projects.

Ralph (3/- Clock Ender)
March 02, 2005

My Humble Apology letter to TalkSport, Sky Sports, BBC, Sir Drunken Scot and the entire British sporting public on behalf of Arsene Wenger, The Arsenal FC, its staff and supporters. Dear Y’All, since Arsene Wenger arrived in 1997-98 season he has amazed the Arsenal supporters by not only finishing in the top two positions in the Premiership, but actually being crowned Champions several times. The football played by his teams have been possibly the best ever to watch and have finally removed the boring 1-0 tag of previous Arsenal teams. For this I must lower my gaze and humbly apologise. Never once did Arsene realise that playing the beautiful game in a positive way offended many British people. Arsene never realised that he upset so many people by not allowing Manchester United to win every year. The FA and Sky had assumed Arsene would be told this by the Arsenal Board. When Wimbledon beat Liverpool in the FA Cup final, it was an enjoyable ONE OFF. Wimbledon accepted their fate and disappeared as did naughty Blackburn Rovers. Arsene was challenged (tee hee) by the Press and Sir Drunken Scot to win something before “telling us what to do”. Arsenal won the Double in his first full season. Arsene was challenged (tee hee) by the Press and Sir Drunken Scot to win the Premiership again. Arsenal became Premiership Champions once again. Arsene was challenged (tee hee) by the Press and Sir Drunken Scot to go unbeaten all season. Arsene’s team duly did this and caused great offence in doing so. Arsene had failed to read the read the small print. What they meant to say is that a team cannot be called a ‘Great Team’ until they had gone unbeaten for TWO SEASONS! My final apology is to all Spurs fans who sneer at Arsenal “Frenchies” and then sign French players themselves, who sneer at Arsenal “Gypsies” moving stadiums only to seek a new plot of land for a self-build or even consider a move to New Wembley (just outside Tottenham, ahem). If Arsenal fans had realised we would win so many League titles while Spurs only had one in 1961, we would have offered to GIVE YOU a Premiership title trophy as we are close mates! Every time an opponent is hurt when trying to kick an Arsenal player (who probably deserves whatever he gets!) we humbly apologise. Arsene and his followers never meant to offend anyone. Arsenal would be more than pleased to offer his players to serve FA bans for others. Please forgive us for being here. We will step aside and allow more deserving clubs achieve their dreams. Sorry.

Daz
March 02, 2005

This is going to drive you mad with rage, choc, so brace yourself but my undergraduate degree was in philosophy, politics and economics. As I understand it, philosophy is speculation about the nature of the world, human existence and the nature of good and evil which is not susceptible to scientific resolution. So the question of whether the earth is flat is a scientific question and the question of whether I can be sure that the computer in front of me exists when I stop perceiving it is a philosophical one. Given that the principal sophists speculated on our existence and questioned theological certainties they were certainly early philosophers.

Daz
March 02, 2005

Bernard
March 02, 2005

Come on, Judge JohnD, Daz and Chocolate. Let's have your definitions of philosophy/philosophers and sophism/sophists and try to get this thing sorted. I have a feeling you won't have consistent definitions; and if that's because there aren't widely accepted definitions, as I said before it will make it very hard to decide who's right or wrong.

Bernard
March 02, 2005

EEG, I'm afraid you may not qualify on the reasonable memory criterion.

East End Gooner
March 02, 2005

Bernard - I tried but it seemed no-one was prepared to pay due deference to my gigantic formal qualification in the subject. Different question. Does being the holder of a Philosophy A-level make me a philosopher? Or just someone with a reasonable memory?

DHD
March 02, 2005

Well tonight I'm travelling more in hope than expectation. But then I have pretty high hopes of my team.

Cannon Balls
March 02, 2005

North Bank Mural.Possible ground share.

East End Gooner
March 02, 2005

Daz - You have to admit 9) was funny. Most unusual. But where was 3)? That confused me. And 7) was rubbish. I like the different applications of "conceivable" and "plausible". Seems that "conceivable must be almost guaranteed (as I would reckon a valuation of both players that leaves the transfer neutral in the event each party desires it to be highly conceivable without much trouble) whereas "plausible" means within the realms of human thought.

Daz
Ignore this if bored of sophists
March 02, 2005

1) "The great pre-Socratic systems that we have been considering were confronted in the latter half of the fifth century, by a sceptical movement in which the most important figure was Protagoras the chief of the Sophists." 2) "...in their own minds they served more impersonal purposes and it is clear that many of them were genuinely concerned with philosophy. Plato devoted himself to caricaturing and vilifying them but they must not be judged by his polemics" 3) "...the odium which the Sophists incurred, not only with the general public but with Plato and subsequent philosophers was due to their intellectual merit. The Sophists were prepared to follow an argument wherever it might lead them. Often it led them to scepticism." So, chocolate, that's what Russell actually did say. Hardly E*Ging ambiguous is it. You may disagree with it but it rather contradicts your earlier bullsihness that only an idiot could disagree with the mighty chocolate gooner.

Bernard
March 02, 2005

OK, this discussion of philosophy has gone on for a long time now, predominantly between Judge JohnD, Daz, and Chocolate, but very brief contributions have come from others like Nico, EEG, Joshua, myself (very, very brief) as well. To be honest, I've lost track on what it's about, but is it whether sophists are, or are not, philosophers? If so, when I made my very brief contribution I tried to make points that can be used to answer that question. 1) Is there an accepted definition of philosophy, or more importantly, philosophers? 2) Is there also an accepted definition of sophism, or more importantly, sophists? If the answer to either is no, it becomes a very difficult question to give a credible answer to; and if the answer to both is no, multiply that difficulty maybe tenfold. If the answer is yes to both questions 1) and 2), we have more chance of getting an answer to the overall issue via another question. This is: 3) Are there sufficient overlaps between philosophy and sophism to conclude that sophists should be seen as philosophers? That in itself may be open to alternative interpretations, but isn't it a way of thinking about it? If so (and I accept I may be barking up the wrong tree on this), then Daz, Judge JohnD and Chocolate, how are you defining - or perhaps I should say - what definition are you using (if any) of philosophy and sophism, or philosophers and sophists?

Daz
March 02, 2005

That makes me feel much better, Bored. Think the answer to your question is in one of Judge D's rulings below and is to do with Plato judging doctrines by their social consequences rather than their intellectual consistency and knowing the conclusions he wanted to reach in advance.

chocolate gooner
March 02, 2005

And we have more of that awesome intellectual honesty of yours.1) When I said that, “sophism is not philosophy”, you genuinely thought that I meant that sophism is not comparable to alchemy, or astrology or any other ‘spurious’ form of knowledge that was knocking about in ancient Greece, most of which nevertheless contributed to our current pool of knowledge… did you? Really? Because that is what Pre-socratic philosophy was, for the most part. 2) Protagoras and Gorgias were not the only sophists. As Nico’s post makes clear the term “sophist” was applied to all manner of people who had one thing in common… the teaching of Rhetoric. So with that fabled intellectual honesty of yours, why don’t you tell me how a term that encompasses all manner of people, a lot of them charlatans, can be boiled down to mean just the contribution of those two guys and furthermore how can you absolve them of any blame for the activities of their followers, given the historical evidence? 4) And as usual you took a sentence, twisted it and responded to your very own invention. I clearly meant, “no one I knew of” or “had heard of” but hey! Honesty ain’t quite what it used to be, is it? Even John D’s quotes fail to back up what you claim Russell was saying 5) I have never based my argument solely on, “Plato said”, never. I have included other philosophers who lived at the time who didn’t think much of the sophists either. Aristotle and Isocrates being others. They must have had their reasons for saying what they did, as they were all independent minded… and Isocrates was Plato’s direct rival. 6) The Owen issue is tied in with Reyes. And right now, knowing what we know there isn’t a swap deal that is conceivable that will favour us. All the scenarios you sketched out involved either Fiorentino Perez going nuts (and handing us Owen and a space ship - made of tapioca, probably) or Reyes getting so depressed that he would need to be fed intravenously… Perez ain’t mad and Reyes doesn’t look that bad. If the circumstances changed (ie Perez loses his marbles or Reyes says, “No more, I want out” then everything changes. But that ain’t the situation is it? Case closed. 7) On the issue of Dein’s clause and Cole’s agent. It is rather simple. All I had to show was that Arsenal suing Cole’s agent was a plausible scenario, and as such it was rash to dismiss the said clause out of hand. That’s it. Nothing circular, or square or Euclidean about it… just a simple question of plausibility. Geddit? 8) Everything I’ve said has been absolutely relevant to the issue being discussed and to the best of my knowledge I’ve never said anything about SUV’s but if I have, JohnD will have a mothballed copy some where. 9) I wish your partner well even if you’re a prat. Cheers.

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

I know Albion are crap and likely to be League 1 contenders next year, so why have they pictures of AG on their website?

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

I think you do have a re-test after drink ban, wonder if he will get paid whilst doing his stir?

Bored
March 02, 2005

After seeing that clip of Delia Smith I will never say another bad word about Gunnersaurus Rex again....

Cannon Balls
March 02, 2005

Will Pennant have to rest his driving test after this ban ?

James - Copenhagen
March 02, 2005

Trivia: The word arsenal has a complicated history. It started in Arabic as dar-as-sina, meaning “house of industry” or “house of construction”. In the fifteenth century the word was taken over by several Mediterranean nations; both Spanish and Italian borrowed it as darsena, a word for a dock. The citizens of Venice acquired it in a different form, losing the first letter and adding al to the end, as the name of their naval dockyard, a substantial base as befitted the leading maritime power in the Mediterranean at the time; to this day it’s called the Arzenale. Later in the sixteenth century the word’s meaning began to shift in English towards naming one part of a dockyard, a warehouse for naval stores and weapons; later still it referred specifically to a place of storage for weapons of all kinds, not just naval ones and also for a place where weapons were made and repaired. A famous example was the Royal Arsenal on the Thames east of London, which stretched for a mile along the river next to the Woolwich dockyard, and which gave its name to the football club.

ed
March 02, 2005

Just saw these pics from arsenal world....Its going to be amazing!! http://www.albiontillwedie.co.uk/ashburtongrove.htm

steve martin
March 02, 2005

http://raq8.servercity.co.uk/files/delia.mpeg

Judge JohnD
March 02, 2005

You have to laugh? Not me chocolate, the tears in my eyes are caused by an altogether different emotion when I see how the mighty MeshMan has morphed into ClayMan. I'll try not to be repetitive, not easy mind you: 1] I won't bang on about the relevance of a century or two in 2500 years as defining what is relevant, but remember when I pointed out that your google exercise had not given you the dates for Plato and Aristotle - you told me that all those wicked Sophists had in fact been around at the same time and that their teachings would have been observed by the aforementioned. Honest? 2] If it wasn't just Timmy and Julian you were referring to, are we to believe you had not come across the wicked, old, privileged…Earl Bertrand? In all your long studies of Philosophy post the Sophists? More honesty? 3] The Sophists were criticised by some and are still are today, even by those who recognize them as having a place in the ranks of philosophers - it's more complicated than " They were reviled even in their own day" You are not being honest when using this to indicate that you are a superior philosopher to Russell but on other occasions acknowledge them as "a whole school of influential, rich, city dwelling and well connected philosophers just sitting on their back sides as Plato ripped into them? Inconceivable…" well, someone must have been impressed for them to have got to the state you attribute them? Not really being honest, are we? 4] Your latest stab at historical context does not match up with your original assertion…"..a mere detail of Antiquity… a footnote in Greek history." Not quite so honest? Your pursuit of the open-minded on this forum, whilst exclusively and superficially, but certainly not perceptively or with any understanding, using radical techniques yourself in a never ending task of portraying yourself as a 21st Century Crusader, has inevitably left you looking like the village idiot. The dog's abuse you are handing out for the contrary opinions to your own are, in effect, just some of us explaining to you that other thinkers believe that Plato's description of the Sophists is not the only opinion; and maybe not even the better opinion. Can you not see that those abusive remarks are insults to the likes of Russell's learning and scholarship - not Doctors Daz and Decaf? And still you bang on about what the Sophists didn't leave us, when Socrates only ever employed oral techniques. By the way what do you think of Xenophon's views of Socrates? Although I will accept, that like yourself, he was not too liberally endowed with brains - just a few cells more, perhaps. What does all this say about your self-awareness? You rate Nico an old fraud when he has an opinion on Reyes but five minutes later put him up there with Plato when he tells you that the Sophists certainly can be placed in the ranks of philosophers. Urhh? And, best of all, you are exposed for your self-satisfaction, that dripped from head to toe after the Gorgias posting, only to discover that it was your arch nemesis, Decaf. The Greek Goddess of retribution, the rival that can't be beaten - how appropriate. I did try to warn you - be fair. Are you going to reply to Albert Knox?

steve martin
March 02, 2005

If you don't know me by nowYou will never never never know me…All the things, that we've been throughYou should understand me like I understand youNow boy I know the difference between right and wrongI ain't gonna do nothing to break up our happy forumDon't get so excited when and miss me late at night'Cause we only act like children when we argue fuss and fight…If you don't know me by now (If you don't know me)You will never never never know me (No you won't)If you don't know by nowYou will never never never know me…We've all got our funny moodsI've got mine, boy you've got yours tooJust trust in me like I trust in youAs long as we’re here together it should be so easy to doJust get yourself together or we might as well say goodbyeWhat good is a forum when we can't see eye to eye…

Bored
March 02, 2005

Daz: It took me 5 attempts to pass my driving test. By the way, you mentioned that Plato introduced deep flaws into philosophy. What were they?

Daz
March 02, 2005

And do you think that if I don't know you by now I will never ever know you?

steve martin
March 02, 2005

Sleep like a baby, my little lady, Dream till the sunrise creeps into your eyes Dream till the sunrise Turns on the day. In the Avenues and Alleyways while you sleep there's a whole world coming alive Able and his brother, fighting one another in and out of every dive.The Avenues and Alleyways where the strong and the quick alone can survive ,Look around the jungle see the rough and tumble Listen to a squealer cry,Then a little later in the morning paper Read about the way he died. Wake up my pretty Go to the city Stay through the daytime safe in the sunshine stay till the daytime turns into night. In the Avenues and Alleyways Where a mans gotta work out which side he's on any way he chooses chances are he loses no one gets to live too long the avenues and alleyways Where the soul of a man is easy to buy everybody's wheeling everybody's steeling all the low are living high Every city's got em can we ever stop em some of us are gonna try.

North Bank Mural
March 02, 2005

Apparently the judge offered Pennant a suspended sentence if he agreed, as part of his rehabilitation, to read the Chocolate/Daz Sophist tiff, that's why he is now doing "porridge"...

steve martin
March 02, 2005

That's just it Daz, you don't know me.

Daz
March 02, 2005

Wouldn't have you down as a James fan by the way, H.

Daz
March 02, 2005

OK, you've forced me to this, Harlow. Meet me Block 22, Row 150, seat 130 and I'll "explain" it to you in some detail. I seem to remember your fighting method being akin to Pete Townshend's guitar playing so it shouldn't take long.

steve martin
March 02, 2005

I’ll sing myself to sleepA song from the darkest hourSecrets I can’t keepInside of the daySwing from high to deepExtremes of sweet and sourHope that God existsI hope I prayDrawn by the undertowMy life is out of controlI believe this wave will bear my weightSo let it flow

steve martin
March 02, 2005

Daz... cantankerous old mod, so am I... "The real world", perhaps with your superior intellect, you can tell me and the rest on here what it actually is.

Gunfire
March 02, 2005

Dormouse the RFU would say that wouldn't they. Had England won no doubt they'd have seen nothing wrong. Anyway in contrast to what you say wasn't one ref demoted to the Football league after a poor performance.

Daz
March 02, 2005

Good, that was the intention of a deliberately smart arse post, Harlow you cantankerous old mod. What is the real world anyway? Remember, I'm a fighter as well as a thinker.

Cannon Balls
March 01, 2005

Well Pennant can't have any complaints he knew the score when he decided to get behind the wheel already being on a suspended sentence for the same offence. I recall when Sir Alex was done for speeding a couple of years ago, he was drunk of course, however his bodyguard was driving so they could only do him for speeding. In his book the bodyguard an ex-SAS man relates how the lying scotsman cooked up a story that he had had a curry the night before and he was caught short and nearly crapping in his underpants. He was of course acquited. A few days after while driving along the same motorway at normal speed Beckhams Merc came flashing past with him and Posh in it, they are in a XXXXing hurry shouted Ferguson,the bodyguard quipped back ,yeah that must have had a vindaloo last night boss!.

Bernard
March 01, 2005

Ah Daz, so after your mention a while ago about a life changing event, my hypothesis at the time was correct. Congratulations. Is casserole girl also Charlie George's publisher, or are you just taking it upon yourself to 'get to know' every single inhabitent of Welwyn Garden City? If so, wait till you get to Mrs Higgins in the flat above Pizza Express and you might come to regret your decision.

North Bank Mural
March 01, 2005

Prisoners F.A. said to be delighted with the verdict...!!

East End Gooner
March 01, 2005

Goonerguru - by "style" do you mean clothing and other matters of personal style?

Truegooner
March 01, 2005

Pennants got a 3 month custodial sentence...

steve martin
March 01, 2005

Daz, wow wee, you know a bit about philosophy, good on you matey, now we all know you;re a smart arse and have had plenty of your letting all know how intelligent you are, perhaps you'll get back to the real world...

steve martin
March 01, 2005

Cannonballs, that is a point I also made to the FA, that Prutton will get a long ban but not for his tackle on Pires, a player who will now be out of action for three weeks, hence getting more punishment that the instigator… I said that for pushing the ref, he will get a six/nine match ban, meaning your more concerned with what happens to the Ref than the players the game is all about, all they keep churning out is that the refs are separate to the FA and they cannot be seen to be undermined. So the rulers of the game of Football in this Country are hampered by the Referees Association, why are they separate in the first place, the game should be under one roof… When giving the FA an analogy, using the Law of the Country, they say you cannot put them side by side, yet the FA calls their rules LAW… As a football, I get totally fed up with the way our game is run, more for the image of the game than the protection of the players and the basic rules of the game… I cannot see any justification for a player to get a three match ban for pushing a player or raising his hands, without actually harming anyone and getting a three match ban, yet a player can cause damage to a fellow professional and get a one match ban because the Ref in charge deemed both tackle worthy of just a yellow card, not a straight red… It’s not like I have a problem with the three match ban for Bergkamp and Reyes, more for the punishment dished out for career threatening tackle are so low… A player could next week go over the top on TH14, Frank Lampard, and Wayne Rooney, finish their careers, yet all the player who committed the tackles would get, is a maximum three match ban, while the same day, a player could raise his hands to the a fellow professional and he gets a straight red and a three match ban, now how can anyone who has any sense of what is right, say that the two can meet the same end punishment… Yet that’s what the FA say is correct, the lunatics have taken over the asylum…

David Pratt
March 01, 2005

Arsenal shares down again.http://www.advfn.com/p.php?pid=quote&symbol=OF^AFC&cb=1109679127

Daz
March 01, 2005

BTW, belated greetings to you, Charlie Goerge's publisher. How's it hanging in Welwyn?

goonerguru
March 01, 2005

EEG,thanks for that because I hadn't seen any reference to it,I was beginning to think I had imagined it.I'm sure you will take this opportunity to tell us which footballers style yours was most akin to,or maybe still is.

Daz
March 01, 2005

You mustn't let the pressure get to you so much, chocolate. There is of course such a thing as pre-Socratic philosophy - I'm not quite sure why you feel qualified to set such an absurdly arbitrary boundary. I'm also not sure why you keep going on about this "Russell said" argument that I supposedly rely on. First because - as Judge John D has pointed out - you are far more tenacious at screaming "Plato said" . I don't think everything Russell wrote is true (although I'll give him the nod on matters philosophical over you) I was simply countering your absurd argument that "nobody you knew thought the sophists were philosophers ", (that's Timmy and Julian who sit next to you in double biology right?). I merely pointed out for your edification that the man who wrote a rather famous book called "History of Western philosophy" devoted space to sophist philosophers (in particular Protgaoras and Gorgias) and argued: 1) that they had considerable intellectual merit with a healthy influence on menthods of sceptical inquiry; 2) that philosophy as we understand it began in the 6th Century BC and 3) that the Sophists were treated badly by subsequent philosphers such as Plato who also introduced deep flaws into philosophy. He may be wrong and you might be right (about as likely as you getting your skinny little arse down to Highbury some day) but what you can't do is keep changing the terms of the debate to suit you, invent arguments that haven't been made or send out the famous chocolate guff emission (Russell would have been "offended", Athens was a city-state, Isocrates bred ducks) which rivals any of your loathed SUVs for damaging the planet in a foul cloak of irrelevance. If you like we can go back to your original assertion that there is no conceivable deal involving Owen that could benefit Arsenal and I'll try and show you - step by step - why that's a stupid and illogical thing to say. You mustn't get dispirited - I had a few problems today with parallel parking but my instructor feels that I will pass my test (much overdue - I sulked after failing the first one for about twenty years) in time to ferry my lovely partner around to the Homerton maternity unit. I think I saw you used the word "defeasibility". Perhaps you could explore that concept with reference to: 1) No deal involving Owen is favourable. 2) Any deal which is favourable is inconceivable. That, my little chocolate philospher wannabe is about as circular an argument as you can get and fails your 'defeasibility' test at the first fence. Ditto, your argument: 1) Arsenal will go to court over Cole because the clause is enforcable. 2) Unless they don't which will be due to factors other than the enforcability of the clause. These arguments are meaningless, chocolate, and about as circular as your mouth after mummy has brought you your hot chocolate and caught you knocking one out over a picture of Atomic Kitten in the copy of Heat that you found on the back seat of the bus to Cuffley.

East End Gooner
March 01, 2005

Goonerguru - there was a reference to it in today's Sun. Apparently he said "**** off" five times to Carragher. There is some history as Carragher was most vociferous in saying how Riley had cheated Liverpool and Arsenal thus tipping the balance firmly in favour of Chelsea. Mourinho has just made himself look an absolute arse and has destroyed his thin facade of "cool" in a matter of a week. He is very, very easy to wind up and I can see people doing it much more now. The suggestion he wasn't gesturing to Liverpool fans is laughable and is because he realises that to admit he was would show how susceptible he is to taunts. I remember Austen Tasseltine (where is he) saying that Mourinho was a very poor loser with excuses for everything. His reaction to Newcastle and Barcelona and Even to the win on Sunday proves him right. I reckon if they really have a bad spell any time over the next couple of years he might lose it totally he seems that much on edge.

Dormouse
March 01, 2005

Talking about referees and the FA, has everyone seen the comments by the RFU referees manager that the performance of the (non-RFU) referee in the England-Ireland game was substandard and that if he had been an RFU ref, he'd be pulled from the next game? Seems like a different perspective than the one we see from the FA.

goonerguru
March 01, 2005

Parkerknoll,Exiled sorry Sir,just think if we were all still in our prime what a team this forum could put out.I didnt see all the Carling cup final on the telly,but I am sure it showed Hose "A" the Portugeese man of Bore,bawling at a Liverpool player with a glazed look in his eyes and telling him to ***k off at least 3 times,I cant recall anyone else referring to this incident on the TV or in the papers,perhaps I made it up.

Bernard
March 01, 2005

Parkerknoll, that question could almost lead to a philosophical debate - or is it a sophist debate?

JamesLT
Parkerknoll
March 01, 2005

PARKERKNOLL: I haven't seen Khalid much - just on highlights, although he's meant to be good. I didn't realise he was Dutch actually. All I know was he bought quite cheaply as a replacement (for Tomas Ujfalusi who moved to Serie A) and has been an instant success. He's been described as world-class although he needs to prove it over the long-term not just over a short period in the Bundesliga. ... ... ... Khalid also made some interesting comments in a recent interview: "Ich bin Fußballer, das ist mein Beruf. Es ist klar für mich, daß ich nicht mein ganzes Leben in Hamburg bleibe. Es gibt Interessenten aus dem Ausland, aber ich warte ab. Vielleicht warten die Klubs bis zum Sommer. Und daraus mache ich kein Hehl: Ein Verein wie Barcelona würde mich reizen. Oder Arsenal London, AC Mailand, Real Madrid, AS Rom. Tolle Klubs, großartige Städte Aber ich muß abwarten." ... ... ... "I am a footballer, that's my job. It's clear for me that I won't stay all my career with Hamburg. Perhaps the clubs are waiting until summer []. I make no secret of this. A club like barcelona would appeal to. Or Arsenal, AC Milan, Real Madrid or Roma. Terrific clubs in great cities. But I must wait." ... ... ... Does that fit the bill? Another world-class mercenary?

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 01, 2005

Here's a topic that may meet with Bernards approval as it both looks forward and has links with the past. When we move to the new stadium will the legend "The Home of Football" move with us or will a new one be attached, or can these only evolve over a period of time.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 01, 2005

Exiled - never a truer word. I watched "You're on Sky Sports" last night with Claridge and Beagrie the "experts". I quite like Claridge and there was an interesting moment when they we're discussing the relative merits of the top three managers. He constantly referred to "Wenger" and "Mourinhno" and then said "Ferguson" quickly apologised and added "Sir Alex", a small thing but a clear indication of the deference Sky have toward the evil empire.

Exiled In Newcastle
March 01, 2005

Parkerknoll - 1, when he leaves the mancs.

Dave
March 01, 2005

Why are Premiereship players always injured so often? Look at Arsenal and Chelsea. The teams are totally decimated through injuries and they may just as well say good-bye to Europe today. Are the training methods wrong? Do refs allow to much physical bashing? It is frustrating to see all these injuries. And then Beattie has nothing better to do than get himself bashed up infront of a nightclub.So much to the professionalism of English players. Yopu`d think he would be concentrating more on his career instead of a midweek binge!

Exiled In Newcastle
March 01, 2005

goonerguru - I'm taking time out from deciding which 30 layers of clothing to wear tonight (mind you I'mstaying with friends in Hallam tonight which appears to be half a mile away so at least I might warm up again quicker than most) so here's my self analysis. Well obviously I was bloody brilliant. Goes without saying. Actually I did play to a reasonable level, mainly as the gangliest right winger you've ever seen. Damn good crosses, excellent at beating people over five yards, but unfortunately blessed with pace that Pascal would be ashamed of. Gave up due to knee injuries (which I believe is an acceptable euphemism for 'you're not good enough son').

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 01, 2005

For serial offender read Scholes, everytime he goes in late and over the top the same tripe is reeled out, "he's not that kind of player", how many more assaults does he need to become "that kind of player".

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 01, 2005

goonerguru - I may be of similar vintage to you as I played right back, right half, centre half, left half, inside right, centre forward and inside left not all at the same time of course and not because of any outstanding ability, more to do with the fact I was over 6' tall from the age of 12. Player I would most compare myself to would be Ray Kennedy, I was years ahead of my time as my range of passing was totally unappreciated by the idiots making the wrong runs!

Cannon Balls
March 01, 2005

It's been obvious for years that the yellow and red-card system is flawed.The whole premise of this scheme, for want of a better word,law seemingly inappropriate for something that is run so arbitrarily on the whim of the referees interpretation of it. Dissent against the referees decisions seems to warrant more severe action or at least similar to that of career threatening tackles, or even actual physical assault. Roy keane for example who was up in court yesterday charged yet again with assaulting someone, no surprise there, admitted to having deliberately injured a player, boasting of it in a book that he wrote. Little was done about it and his manager Fergusons endorsment of the book saying that it was a 'good read' shows the mental thinking at OT under the drunken jocks reign there. So if Kean who admits in the book that he bears grudges against players for incidents that have occurred in the past, and exacts revenge for it when the opportunity arises does it, then it's likely that others do like wise, or in the heat of the moment. The stock phrase' i would never hurt anyone on purpose' is always trotted out of course, and Prutton is the latest to do so. He knew what he was doing, and his comments that he thought Pires was 'making a meal of it' were insightful into his thinking. Well in football career terms Pires 'meal' could have been a last supper. Prutton will get a long ban, but for the wrong reasons, that tackle on Pires was worse than his tantrum against the match officials. No surprise to see in the Keane case that the alleged assault on the 16 year old boy was for an incident that had occurred some time previously and for which the crazed Kean had harboured a grudge.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 01, 2005

American and JamesLT - I've done the groundwork now fill in the detail, Khalid Buolahrouz (23) Dutch cb at Hamburg.

goonerguru
March 01, 2005

Morning Sir Exiled,the forum today seems a little like last tuesday before the BM match....quiet,but it did end up enjoyable with a session on Namedropping,which if I recall was won by EEG with you in close second position,I think I will try another today.I guess we have all played football at sometime another at different levels in the game,so my question is this,when you did play,which players style would you have most likened your own to.I was a half back in my time,midfielder in todays terminolgy,I was small(still am of course),hard as nails(not any more),bite your legs sort of guy,I worked on the princible that it didn't matter how big they were,when you put them on the floor they were all the same size,although I didn't like the guy Billy Bremner would have been the type of player that I most played like,without the red hair of course.

chocolate gooner
March 01, 2005

1) You have to laugh… I said that sophism is not philosophy. Daz said that it was Pre-Socratic philosophy and I told him that pre-socratic philosophy is not philosophy, as we know it, to which he replied with… “Russell said”. Intellectual dishonesty?? No one comes close to Daz’s level of dishonesty on this forum. What is the relevance of pre-socratic philosophy to any issue we discuss on this forum? Why would you choose to apply pre-socratic philosophy to a contemporary issue? Honesty??? You don’t know the meaning of the word. 2) I said, “no one I know thinks that sophism is philosophy” and you jumped on it trying to imply that I meant, “people I may be acquainted with” or “knew personally” where as you must have known that I was talking about “people I know of… had heard of”. Intellectual dishonesty?? Take a bow Daz. 3) You talk about me wanting to afford Plato the benefit of historical context and doubt whilst denying it to the Sophists? How? They were reviled even in their own day, so what’s your point? And there is no way the cause of that revulsion could be the writings of just one man. But hey! Your intellectual honesty knows no bounds. You’re a veritable saint. 4) No one is disputing that Gorgias and/or Protagoras deserve their place in any history of western thought but you trying to ignore a methodology that included the deliberate weighting of an argument that was known to be false to make it seem less so, isn’t intellectual honesty whatever it is, because it is clear that such a methodology isn’t philosophical. But that’s what you want to do… you paragon of intellectual honesty, you…. and if your stupid and ludicrous “inconceivable” thingy is an example of your intellectual honesty… I’d hate to see an example of your dishonesty. Give it a rest. … … … … … … … JohnD, please stick to the issue and stop making things up, I have never said that the sophists had no place in a history of Western philosophy because as I’ve said regularly, any such history is a history of Western thought and they clearly have a place in it, so you are talking rubbish as usual. The only is issue is your description of them. It is completely preposterous to suppose that a cutting edge way of thinking and seeing the world (as you claimed), which also had a host of influential, well connected and rich teachers would leave us nothing whilst a contemporaneous rival left us loads of writings especially since Plato criticised them so openly. You can’t back up what you said furthermore… you’re really boring me now. Cheers. … … … … … Decaf, so, you’re now so desperate that you’ll claim any floating post as yours? Pity. Cheers.

Bernard
March 01, 2005

Exiled, thanks I completely forgot about Nicholas and Hayes. Vince, Exiled is right - I'm certain the Luton final was the only penalty Winterburn ever took for the club, and as it turns out, shame he did so.

Bernard
March 01, 2005

US Martin, fine go ahead with your conspiracies - and likening Edelman's comment to Watergate. Says it all really, and I do think it's unhealthy to be obsessed with seeing unjustified conspiracies everywhere.

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 01, 2005

Pre 1979 = 62, post 1979 = 73 as I'm sure our expert will verify. Anyone else having problems with the site loading this morning? if not must be my Explorer, what a pile of pooh it is. Any other Mac users out there using Mozilla, if so would you recommend it.

Exiled In Newcastle
March 01, 2005

Talking of cards being recinded the only one I can remember is Keown a couple of years ago. He got red carded and it was later withfrawn - kind of. He didn't have a ban but the FA left the red card on his record. Bastards.

goonerguru
March 01, 2005

Parkerknoll,how many hospital bed are there in a ton?

Parkerknoll Gooner
March 01, 2005

peacelovinhippie - carefull about speculating on cbs you'll have the NHS inspectorate down on you like a ton of hospital beds! American - I mentioned just the man yesterday, as a follower of the Bundesliga I thought you may help identify the player, Dutch international cb at SV Hamburg with a very un-Dutchlike name.

Dormouse
March 01, 2005

The only times I rememmber red or yellow cards being rescinded is when the ref has looked at video evidence or whatever and changed his mind. I can't remember a time when the FA over-ruled a ref. I do agree that they should though, when the video evidence shows that the ref was wrong. There's no doubt that the whole question of video evidence is in disarray, with action being taken on the basis of Sky replays rather than any systematic review of a match.